DevianID Posted January 24, 2009 Share Posted January 24, 2009 acid mines and snipers are strength 3 Yes, but acid mines versus vehicles roll 2d6+3 for AP, not st + 2d6, the 3 in 2d6+3 does not refer to their strength (despite being a 3) because of the tyranid FAQ... in addition, if the mine's blast template is not centered over the vehicle, you still roll 2d6+3 as their is no strength to half--per the FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I know, I collect 'Nids myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 It's the last sentence in the Living Metal entry for the Monolith...page 21. The exact sentence reads: "In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what." Yeah the last line of that paragraph in my codex is "Ordanance weapons still roll 2d6 armor penitration and select the highest score" I'll head to my local gaming store and see what their codex says sense I KNOW they have the most up to date versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Ordnance were always an exception, you noob! Nah, joking 'bout the noob thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty the Pyro Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Ordnance were always an exception, you noob!Nah, joking 'bout the noob thing. Actualy I am a newb, but I am likely also the most well versed newb you will come across (I was holding tactical conversations with vets and quoting stat information and rules before I even owned a model). However I wasn't stating that ordanance was an undiscused/new exception, I was stating that the line about ordanance was the last line in the paragraph in my codex, not the "in practice" line which is NOT in my codex at all. This is important because it is the main line in defence of melta bombs not doint their 2d6 due to the diference between always 1d6 and ignoring extra dice. If my copy is the most up to date (which i thought was true but this thread puts doubt upon) than the whole "in practice" line and reference is completely moot, which is why I am going to check my gaming stores copy of the codex in the next week sometime because I know 100% that their copy of the codex is the most recent one. Also I never said acid mines didnt have strength I just said they had a strait armor penitration value instead of str+dice, as does melta bombs and turbo penitrator (though you are right I left of its +3, because the codex says it rolls 3d6 for armor pen, but never mentions the +3, the +3 is only mentioned in an faq oops) and I specificly mentioned the sniper using a str. I apreciate and support when people correct my mistakes, but I preffer when they correct mistakes I actualy make :teehee: -The Cold One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 Something you may have missed, in your last post you said acid mines and snipers are str2 - I was correcting that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metallicop Posted January 25, 2009 Share Posted January 25, 2009 I didnt read the entire discussion, only page 1 and 5; has anyone mentioned that monoliths have become much easier to hit overall? Think about it, new template rules which helps those vindicators, the whole speed determining hitting skimmers in CC... at worst, most models would hit the monolith on 4+ when it moves. Until they FAQ any issues about the monolith in terms of bonus penetration, the 4th ed rules for melta weapons (and older codex) stated that melta bombs were S8 + 2D6 (for AP). It's just an example of Necron rules not meshing properly with 5th edition, because of how they changed the description of melta bombs. ...And yes, I'm a Necron player! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I just looked in my 4th edition rulebook, and it doesn't say they have strength 8, only "8+2D6 AP". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 this debate predates 5th edition and the correct answer, in my eyes, hasn't changed - AP of a grenade is as indicated in the BRB or 'dex. no bonus dice indicated. living metal does not reduce the # of dice for 'nades, turbo penetrators, or anythign else with a fixed AP value, only those that get "an extra D6" such as melta (ranged), rending, chainfist, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyescrossed Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Perfectly legal, but illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castus Xanthis Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 The "In Practice" line everyone is quoting is from several editions ago. Therefore, it no longer applies. It still comes down to looking in the weapon entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 The "In Practice" line everyone is quoting is from several editions ago. Therefore, it no longer applies. It still comes down to looking in the weapon entry. Really? My version of the Necron Codex is the first printed, and doesn't have it. I believe the "in practice" line is in the current version, although I await Frosty's check with anticipation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castus Xanthis Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 It's in the Third Edition Codex, it isn't in the latest one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 It's in the Third Edition Codex, it isn't in the latest one. The 3rd ed is the only Necron Codex. There is a v2 of that Codex however. I'm given to understand that there isn't a v3. Given that I have v1 (without the "in practice" revision), and there is no v3, ergo, v2 must have the revision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castus Xanthis Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Interesting, I have never seen that line and I have read the latest necron codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinky Narfanet Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 It's the second printing (of the 3rd Ed. Codex) that has that line. If you open your Codex and look near the bottom of the first page (with all the credits) you should be able to determine your edition by looking just above the contact information for each nation. Given what the rumors regarding the Necron Codex are, I think it unlikely that there will be a third printing before a 5th Ed. Codex comes about (and hopefully resolves at leat some of these issues--foolish hope, I know). As for the meat of the debate, I'm inclined to say that grenades aren't "weapons" and, as such (and as much as it pains my Monolith to say so), the Melta Bombs aren't reduced in effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zieggenfus Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 To paraphrase Carole King, do I feel the earth move? I may wind up eating these words.... (and quite happy I'll be.) Some one teach GW how to write rules. It would seem that "grenades aren't weapons" deals with the "in practice" statement. While the turbo penetrator and grenades only have AP argument advocates for 8+2D6 AP value. In a virgin field, I don't think any of us would argue otherwise, but this isn't that, and very few will change the long cherished and hallowed belief that's meltabombs don't hurt monoliths..... the entrenched will be not denied. :) in other words, unless it if errata'd/faq'd otherwise, meltabombs will do 8+1D6 dmg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Daxam Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 I have to agree with most people about the 'Lith being a little twisted when it comes to rules. I still don't see that if the Turbo Penetrator round keeps it's 3D6 armour penetration, why shouldn't the Melta bomb. The Vindicare's TPR been addressed in the FAQ. I don't know if this issue is addressed in any published errata, but if we could get a hold of something or someone from GW to clear this up, I'd like that greatly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 I have to agree with most people about the 'Lith being a little twisted when it comes to rules. I still don't see that if the Turbo Penetrator round keeps it's 3D6 armour penetration, why shouldn't the Melta bomb. The Vindicare's TPR been addressed in the FAQ. I don't know if this issue is addressed in any published errata, but if we could get a hold of something or someone from GW to clear this up, I'd like that greatly. Unfortunately it was an old and not currently extant FAQ that says that about the TPR. Hence this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 well that, and if you bring up a FAQ as support for an Official Rules debate your will get a number of responses that remind you that an FAQ is not official in any way. the Monolith is a very bad fit with the current rules and the removal of what clarifications DID exist in the FAQs. I think the FAQ is still useful as supporting evidence when arguing a position for which there is no clear answer. either way, the RAW here is clear - no bonsu dice. the TPR, melta bomb, etc.. do not get bonus dice, by definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castus Xanthis Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Correct. They roll 3d6 and 2d6 respectively. No bonus dice involved. Could someone who has the necron codex handy quote the ENTIRE Living Metal rule please and not just the last sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinky Narfanet Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 For the purposes of furthering the debate only (assume standard disclaimers, I'm not intentionally running afoul of any rules): Living Metal: The Monolith is made of living Necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what. Codex: Necrons, 2nd Printing, Page 21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 It may have been covered earlier and I've missed it, but what about the definition of weapon by codexes and rulebook? Maybe they all define weapons as "ranged weapons" (ie meltaguns) and "close combat weapons" (ie chainfists). Grenades I think, as I don't have my books with me, are not weapons but instead wargear. Technically there's a difference, technically they're not affected by Living Metal as that only effects "weapons"... thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Divergent Reality Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 to further muddle it i doubt gw will print another faq for the necrons between now and their next codex release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 30, 2009 Share Posted January 30, 2009 It may have been covered earlier and I've missed it, but what about the definition of weapon by codexes and rulebook? Maybe they all define weapons as "ranged weapons" (ie meltaguns) and "close combat weapons" (ie chainfists). Grenades I think, as I don't have my books with me, are not weapons but instead wargear. Technically there's a difference, technically they're not affected by Living Metal as that only effects "weapons"... thoughts? Could be mistaken but I think Dourine has already raised that one :tu: some way back, but grenades are indeed 'weapons' – or at least they are in the DA Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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