Deathwing Apothecary

[Thantoes]

Simple question. Can the DW Apothocary carry a heavy weapon?

 

I got involved in a discussion about this. I say no he cant.

 

Have a look at the discussion below and comment. :)

 

My argument:

My reading of the codex entry is that as
soon as you add the narthecium to the model he ceases to be a "Deathwing
Terminator" and becomes a "Deathwing Apothocay", hence the apothocary's
individual stat line. It then says that the one "Deathwing Terminator"
may take a heavy weapon. Since he is no longer a Deathwing Terminator he
cant take that weapon upgrade.

Again, just my take on that entry.

 

Counter Argument:

I was wondering if that'd spark any controversy! I'll take your point, but also provide an alternative way of looking at it: Buy the heavy flamer upgrade first (replacing the storm bolter). Buy the apothecary upgrade second (replacing the power fist with narthecium). I can't see anything illegal about it, but it is controversial!

My Counter counter argument:

So you are looking at it from an order of operations stand point?

I guess the question then is in what order do you do it. I would say that you would then have to followed the codex entry in the order its written so first column and then second column. That would upgrade terminators into the champion and then the apothary first and then you assign wargear to whatever terminators are left.

That being said, I can see how it can be interprated either way so until its FAQ'ed, I can see there being some discussion on the issue.

 

 

[Leonaides]

Similar to other command squad upgrades, company champion, etc... Don't think anyone actually managed to prove one way or the other tho from a personal pov it stinks to high heaven of beardiness!

[pyroknight]

The command squad upgrade issue has been debated before. I have never seen an official ruling on it either way, but many of us feel that all upgrades are applied at the same time.

If you have to perform an "ordered operation" in order to use an upgrade, then it is illegal. 

[Axagoras]

He cannot take it because he is a deathwing apothecary not a deathwing terminator in the unit list.

[Harleqvin]

Like above mentioned. Once he becomes a Deathwing Apothecary he ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator and can no longer take weapon swaps. Nor can you give a weapon swap to him before he is an Apothecary.

[Morollan]

Like above mentioned. Once he becomes a Deathwing Apothecary he ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator and can no longer take weapon swaps. Nor can you give a weapon swap to him before he is an Apothecary.

 

Do you have a page reference for that last part?

[tvih]

This silly topic in yet another form. If you take an upgrade to a DW Terminator and then change him to be something other than a DW Terminator, the upgrade is no longer valid/legal as the model is no longer a DW Terminator. If they intended the Champion and Apothecary to be able to take other upgrades, the upgrades would be "Any model"/"One model", not "Any Deathwing Terminator"/"One Deathwing Terminator".

 

But some wacky (aka WAACy) people want their Deathwing Apothecaries with a banner/sacred standard and a CML, and since GW doesn't want to clarify... pff. Just like in every other thread like this, some people will cling to that.

[Morollan]

This silly topic in yet another form. For one, if you want to follow an "order of operations", how about the viewpoint where the upgrade to Apothecary is listed before the ability to take a heavy weapon? I mean really, it mostly works quite logically if you do it like that (the banner being an exception, I suppose). Otherwise you would make such senseless things possible as taking a Cyclone Launcher and THEN upgrading the same model to a DW Champion which removes the CML, but you'd still pay the price because you followed an illogical order of operations. Not that anyone would do that in practise, but the point stands. If you take an upgrade to a DW Terminator and then change him to be something other than a DW Terminator, the upgrade is no longer valid/legal. The upgrades take place at the same time, not one at a time. If they intended the Champion and Apothecary to be able to take other upgrades, the upgrades would be "Any model"/"One model", not "Any Deathwing Terminator"/"One Deathwing Terminator".

 

But some wacky (aka WAACy) people want their Deathwing Apothecaries with a banner/sacred standard and a CML, and since GW doesn't want to clarify... pff. Just like in every other thread like this, some people will cling to that.

 

The arguments that a) there is no order of operations and b) if there was it would be top to bottom of the codex entry, are both disproved by the Ork Codex and FAQ.

 

The Ork Boyz entry (page 100 of the Codex) lists the option for the entire mob to replace sluggas and choppas with shootas and then goes on to list the option for an Ork Boy to be upgraded to a Nob and for the Nob to exchange his Choppa (only) with a Power Klaw. By your logic this is impossible to do if the entire mob has already swapped out their choppas.

 

The Ork FAQ has this to say:

 

Q. If a Boyz mob exchange sluggas and choppas with shootas, can a Nob take a power klaw or a big choppa? (p100)

A. You may upgrade the Nob to have a big choppa or power klaw before you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas, in which case the Nob is not affected by the mob’s weapon swap (as he no longer has a choppa to swap), does not receive a shoota and keeps his slugga and power klaw/big choppa

instead.

[Leonaides]

Which applies to a specific badly worded option in a different codex. And is itself badly worded. Move along pls...

[Leonaides]

Which applies to a specific badly worded option in a different codex. And is itself badly worded. Move along pls...

[Morollan]

Which applies to a specific badly worded option in a different codex. And is itself badly worded. Move along pls...

 

And your evidence for no order of operations and/or specific order in which options can be taken is...?

[pyroknight]

These rules are far from complete or consistent, and we are

left to make decisions with the information we have.

Warhammer uses a permissive rules set.  We do not have permission to give an apothecary

any upgrades. Nor do we have permission to keep any upgrades we acquired before
becoming an apothecary.

Please show me where it says a deathwing apothecary keeps
any upgrades he had prior to becoming an apothecary.

We are left to make assumptions about what the author

intended. If he intended for the apothecary to have a cyclone missile launcher,
then he would have said the apothecary may be upgraded with a cyclone missile
launcher. 

[Raeven]

 

Like above mentioned. Once he becomes a Deathwing Apothecary he ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator and can no longer take weapon swaps. Nor can you give a weapon swap to him before he is an Apothecary.

 

Do you have a page reference for that last part?

 

 

Like above mentioned. Once he becomes a Deathwing Apothecary he ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator and can no longer take weapon swaps. Nor can you give a weapon swap to him before he is an Apothecary.

 

Do you have a page reference for that last part?

 

Yea, page 95.  The wording within the rule differentiates between the Apothecary, Veterans, Champions, etc.  You cannot add wargear to an upgrade unless the upgrade is universal, as indicated by the phrase "any model", or the wargear is specifically listed under the upgrades listing, like most Veterans being allowed to take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons section of the wargear list. 

 

For Deathwing Terminators Command Squad..

 

One Deathwing Terminator may be upgraded to a Deathwing Apothecary, replacing their power fist with a narthecium...

 

One Deathwing Terminator may choose....

 

Any Deathwing Terminator may replace all of his weapons with...

 

Any Model may replace his power fist...

 

 

So the Apothecary could change his powerfist into a chainfist, but he doesn't have a power fist anymore so the point is moot.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nor do we have permission to keep any upgrades we acquired before

 

becoming an apothecary.

 

Not quite how the permissive system works.

 

We're not told to remove any options bought, when we upgrade to an apothecary, either.

 

A DW Terminator is *permitted* to purchase certain options.

 

A DW Terminaotr is also *permitted* to purchase an upgrade to an Apothecary.

 

That's about it, really.

 

 

The wording within the rule differentiates between the Apothecary,

Veterans, Champions, etc.  You cannot add wargear to an upgrade unless

the upgrade is universal, as indicated by the phrase "any model"

 

Well, the Ork example above proves this incorrect.

 

If GW were writing robust rules, the upgrade to an Apothecary would say something like;

 

"A DW Terminator can upgrade to an Apothecary for x points.  Replace all wargear for TDA, Narthecium, SB"

 

Or the like.

 

Much like most TDA upgrade options do.

[Leonaides]

No - the ork example would be the exception that proves the rule, if anything. And again - different codex, different unit, does not carry across (or would you like to rediscuss how psykers are unaffected by SitW since they are not on the board while in vehicles, yet can still cast powers from within vehicles that affect things on the board?

[Gentlemanloser]

Prooves *what* rule?

 

That's the whole point...

 

We not told anything about what to do with option upgrades when you change unit.  Keep, or discard.  Not mentioned.

 

If anything, the single clarification for Orks *is* the rule, as we have nothing else to go on.

[Raeven]

The rule that all Upgrades are made to the base model in the unit.  When I say upgade, I don't mean wargear.  I mean changing from the base unit type to a different unit type with whatever special rules included. 

 

Once that upgrade is made, the model changes from the base unit type to the upgrade type.

 

Your Ork example is evidence of that.  I cannot find any evidence or example where you are permitted to upgrade or change an already upgraded model..  All upgrades are done to base models.

 

Once upgraded, the newly named model can be given optional gear or rules so long as it is listed in the unit entry.

 

 

So while you are arguing there is an order of operations...Model upgrades are in Parenthesis.  :)

[pyroknight]

The fundamental problem with an “ordered operation” is that you

cannot prove that you did it in the legal ordering.

The case can always be made that you performed the operation
in wrong order and did something that is illegal.

So I doubt such a method would be allowed in a tournament,
when anyone can cast evidence that you may have done something illegal in your
army list.

While they can’t prove you performed something illegal, no
such doubt can be cast on a list that does not rely on “ordered operation”
upgrades. As such, I would advise avoiding them. 

[Raeven]

Also, you cannot apply upgrades to the same model unless the rules say so.

 

For example..  for every 5 Deathwing TDA, you can upgrade One Deathwing TDA with one of the following....

 

That doesn't mean you can put an Assault Cannon on a Terminator, then also apply a Cyclone missle launcher to the same model.  It obeys the rules to the letter.  One Deathwing TDA with One CML and One Deathwing TDA with One Assault Cannon. 

 

You would be hard pressed to convince anyone you can do that though.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The rule that all Upgrades are made to the base model in the unit.  When
I say upgade, I don't mean wargear.  I mean changing from the base unit
type to a different unit type with whatever special rules included.

 

But, that's not in question...

[tvih]

It's a funny thing how the BT codex, being ancient and all, doesn't have this problem. For a command squad it specifically mentions that models with a "weapon upgrade" cannot be upgraded to specialists.

Of course, now some folks are going to argue that as a precedent for more recent codices To those that would, let me introduce you to face and palm.

[Morollan]

The fundamental problem with an “ordered operation” is that you

cannot prove that you did it in the legal ordering.

The case can always be made that you performed the operation

in wrong order and did something that is illegal.

So I doubt such a method would be allowed in a tournament,

when anyone can cast evidence that you may have done something illegal in your

army list.

While they can’t prove you performed something illegal, no

such doubt can be cast on a list that does not rely on “ordered operation”

upgrades. As such, I would advise avoiding them. 

 

People always bring up this point. In a 2000+ point game, where you have, say, 4 Troop choices, can you prove that you bought those in two separate primary detachments? You could have bought them all in the first primary detachment therefore making the 2nd primary detachment illegal. It's a pretty ridiculous argument as you could, and probably would, just show this on your army list. The same applies to upgrades purchased for units though. Show them on your army list and, if you feel the need, show the order of upgrades too.

[Captain Idaho]

The question isn't one of "order" of upgrades, unless it specifies so. All rules quoted to us are relevant until we're told they aren't. That's how 40K works.

 

• A Veteran can take x, y or z options.

• A Veteran can be upgraded to an Apothecary.

 

So can an Apothecary take options x, y or z? No, we all know the answer to that. Since 40K is permissive as a rules set, i.e. you have to be told you can do something, then we know an Apothecary cannot take these options.

 

Logically, and the only answer that makes sense following this logic, a Veteran cannot be upgraded to have x, y or z options and then be upgraded to an Apothecary, because that would create a paradoxical situation of an Apothecary having an option (x, y or z) they haven't been permitted to have explicitely in the rules.

 

The reason GW have never FAQed it is because that is a logical result of applying all their rules in the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Logically, and the only answer that makes sense following this logic, a
Veteran cannot be upgraded to have x, y or z options and then be
upgraded to an Apothecary, because that would create a paradoxical
situation of an Apothecary having an option (x, y or z) they haven't
been permitted to have explicitely in the rules.

 

That's incorrect.

 

We're told what we *can* do.

 

A veteren *can* take x upgrade.

A veteren *can* be upgraded to an Apothecary.

 

Both are those are permission we are allowed.  No where do the rules tell us we can no longer upgrade the Veteren becuase of whatever other permitted options we have taken on them.  No where are these permission stated as being mutually exclusive.

 

The rules would have to state something like "A Veteren can be upgraded to an apothecary, if they have taken no other wargear options".

[Captain Idaho]

You're wrong. As a permissive rules set, it's down to you to show me the ruling an Apothecary can take the wargear of a veteran.

 

I'll save everyone the trouble - you can't because an Apothecary doesn't have access to these options.