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Power of the Machine Spirit


Seahawk

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Does Power of the Machine Spirit even work?

 

"If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots...the Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots..." (p.32)

 

"...may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons.../...can only make Snap Shots." (p.73)

 

"...can only be resolved as Snap Shots" (p.84)

 

"...the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting." (p.169)

 

So, Snap Shots are always BS1, unless a special rule specifically calls it out as not being the case. When a vehicle moves too fast or shoots at a Flyer, it must make Snap Shots.

 

Power of the Machine Spirit does not specifically state it modifies Snap Shots, and therefore never overrides it. Thus, a land raider that moves 6" can only ever fire 1 weapon at its BS4, and the rest at BS1 (one can be at a different target though).

 

If anyone thinks the opposite is true, then Power of the Machine Spirit can be used to shoot at Flyers at BS4 (or 3, if it's an AM tank). There's no distinction between Snap Shots for ground or flying targets.

 

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Um, what are you guys on about?

 

You've answered your own questions:

 

Snap fire is always at BS1 unless otherwise stated.

 

Power of the machine spirit allows one more vehicle to fire at normal BS than ordinarily permitted. This isn't modifying the BS of a snap fire, but circumnavigating snap fire.

 

Ergo, using PotMS allows you to move 6" and fire an extra weapon at full BS. Ergo-a-gogo; when firing at a flier and being forced to snapfire, PotMS doesn't change that.

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Doesn't it though?

 

What you're saying is that PotMS is taking a Snap Shot at BS4. How is that not modifying it?

 

Ergo, using PotMS allows you to move 6" and fire an extra weapon at full BS. Ergo-a-gogo; when firing at a flier and being forced to snapfire, PotMS doesn't change that.

 

There is zero functional difference between Snap Shots caused by moving fast and Flyers. A Snap Shot is a Snap Shot. Either PotMS overrides none of it (endorsed by the rules) or it overrides all of it (unsubstantiated by the rules).

 

The only rule in the game that overrides Snap Shots (remember, it must specifically state it does so, not just "get around it") is Markerlights: "Pinpoint can increase the Ballistic Skill of Snap Shots and Overwatch."

 

Snap Shots are specifically mentioned here. They are not mentioned at all in PotMS. That's why it works for Markerlights and not for PotMS.

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both "set" the bs value to either 1 or full bs, SO since its your turn you chose which modifier is set first.

Edit: we all know how PoTMS is intended to be used and telling someone the rule is null is just as bad as playing a unprimed screamerstar

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"Full Ballistic Skill" is undefined. The full Ballistic Skill for a Land Raider is 4. The full Ballistic Skill for a Snap Shot, regardless of firer, is 1. When making a Snap Shot, you'd use the latter, and thus still fire at BS1.

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both effects SET the bs to a value, either 1 or users BS. once again you uses pemdas, final step is set the value, both set at the same time and since its your turn you apply snapfire, THEN machine spirit it back to full

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Shooting at zooming fliers makes all shots snapshots so wouldnt POTMS make ONE of those shots BS4?  The rule for POTMS specifically says "One more" than normal.  One more than zero is one... 

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Exactly, Brother Dean.

 

My friend just mentioned this:

 

"It doesn't effect snap shots, because it isn't MAKING a snap shot. It is allowing one weapon to not be making a snap shot in the first place."

 

While I'd like to believe that, the rules don't specify it.

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both effects SET the bs to a value, either 1 or users BS. once again you uses pemdas, final step is set the value, both set at the same time and since its your turn you apply snapfire, THEN machine spirit it back to full

 

Except the new 7th ruling of nothing modifies a Snap Shot unless it specifically says it does.

 

PotMS doesn't specifically say it modifies a Snap Shot.

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GML: What about my friend's suggestion, that PotMS makes the shot no longer a Snap Shot, but a regular shooting attack subject to the normal rules of shooting. Any thoughts there?

 

His thinking is straighter than mine it seems. He follows with:

 

"Again, it is modifying THAT rule, changing the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS. The number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS is related to movement, PotMS is letting to fire one more weapon than you normally could with a vehicle moving the same speed. When firing at flyers, though, you specifically have to make snap shots, so PotMS would have to be able to modify snap shots to work against flyers."

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The last part. It is not intended to override snap shot. It simply adds onto the normal limit of shots you can fire after moving at full ballistic and allows you to aim hat one weapon at another target.

 

Potms works just the same with vehicles trust has skyfire, allowing one more shot at full ballistic at flyers.

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PotMS works the same as it did in 6th and its because of how the rules are worded. It still has no effect on flyers because the rule simple says that you must make snap shots. There is no mention of how many weapons you can fire so PotMS does not work.

 

 

As for moving 6" or more as you quoted Seahawk the rule says

 

"...may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons.../...can only make Snap Shots." (p.73)

 

And PotMS says..

 

"...the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting." (p.169)

 

What PotMS is overriding isn't the second part of the sentence, its the first. Basically a vehicle with PotMS has the 6"  rule changed to

 

"...may fire two weapons using its Ballistic Skill. The vehicle can also fire Snap Shots with other weapons.../...can only make Snap Shots." (p.73)

 

While cruising speed says something similar to the flyers Hard to Hit rule it still follows the "number of weapons" wording for two reasons one at the top of the section where they talk about moving and shooting it says

 

"..but the number(and accuracy) of the weapons a vehicle can fire in the Shooting phase depends on how fast it moved in that turn's movement phase, as detailed below"

 

Also in the back of the book in the reference section it references number of shots at full BS again, stating for normal vehicles moving at Cruising speed is 0. 0+1 is still 1 so PotMS still works as it always has. 

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GML: What about my friend's suggestion, that PotMS makes the shot no longer a Snap Shot, but a regular shooting attack subject to the normal rules of shooting. Any thoughts there?

 

His thinking is straighter than mine it seems. He follows with:

 

"Again, it is modifying THAT rule, changing the number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS. The number of weapons a vehicle can fire at full BS is related to movement, PotMS is letting to fire one more weapon than you normally could with a vehicle moving the same speed. When firing at flyers, though, you specifically have to make snap shots, so PotMS would have to be able to modify snap shots to work against flyers."

That's what I said!

 

It isn't changing the BS of snap fire, it's providing a weapon the ability to not have to snap fire.

 

And that is RAW.

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Ahh, yea that's what my friend was saying, the part I couldn't quite grasp. Thanks for making it much clearer!

 

PotMS is back in action (just not vs flyers).

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It's good you clarified it. Wouldn't want you shooting down any fliers so easily eh!

 

Or not laying waste to your enemies when moving your LR's  ;)

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Hmmm.  I suppose the argument you could make is that PotMS isn't changing the BS of a Snap Shot, because you could use PotMS to fire a Blast Weapon.

 

Where as, if it was just modifying the BS of a Snap Shot (back to BS4), which it can't do, you would be unable to PotMS a Blast.

 

There is a subtle difference between shooting at BS4 and shooting a Snap Shot at BS4.

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Hmmm. I suppose the argument you could make is that PotMS isn't changing the BS of a Snap Shot, because you could use PotMS to fire a Blast Weapon.

 

Where as, if it was just modifying the BS of a Snap Shot (back to BS4), which it can't do, you would be unable to PotMS a Blast.

 

There is a subtle difference between shooting at BS4 and shooting a Snap Shot at BS4.

Or it is preventing a weapon from being Snap Shot in the first place.

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Wait, so I CAN PoTMS a weapon at BS4?

 

LR may suddenly be mire useful, thankyou guys!

It depends on what is causing the Snap Shot in the first place. It won't help you shoot down a Flyer at full BS. It will help when moving at Combat Speed. It may help when Cruising. It may help when Shaken/Stunned. It may help when firing Ordnance.

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