Conjurations not for all

[Ozshock]

Deep Strike:

 

Roll for the arrival of all deep striking units as specified in the rules for reserves and then deploy as follows: (etc)

(im pretty sure this doesnt refer the deployment phase, just that you "put the units on the board")

 

Factions: (under the rules for selecting your army)

 

All units belong to one of the many factions that are fighting in the 41st millenium. A units faction applies regardless of how you choose your army.

(so CtA does factor in for summoned Daemons...they are from Faction: Chaos Daemons)

 

Come the Apocalypse:

 

Units that will only ally "CtA" are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy with 12" of each other WHEN THEY ARE DEPLOYING FOR BATTLE...

(when does "deploying for battle" start and end? only deployment phase/beginning of the game?)

 

nowhere does it say that you CAN/CANT summon daemons if you are CtA allies (im not talking about the DS of them yet)...lets break this info down

 

IMO:

 

Deploying for battle is done AND FINISHES in the deployment phase. This is where you choose to keep units in reserve or not. The act of deep striking happens in the movement phase, and i know the term "deploy" is used, but i dont think it refers to the deployment phase, which is where people are being too hard trying to interpret the rules...Deploy is simply the act of putting models on the table, it can happen in any phase and is not restricted to the deployment phase. Where the rule for CtA states that you cant deploy within 12", it states when you are "deploying for battle"...i think this ONLY refers to the deployment phase, not once you enter your own movement phase...you have finished deploying for battle and are now fighting the battle...

 

i hope this has cleared all of it up and CtA allies CAN AND WILL summon daemons on you...although i dont see why they would even try as there are too many downsides to doing it anyway...and who is a CtA ally that can make use of malefic anyway? (i know most can use the powers...but who in their right mind would build a list around it?)

[Kristoff]

IMO:

 

Deploying for battle is done AND FINISHES in the deployment phase. This is where you choose to keep units in reserve or not. The act of deep striking happens in the movement phase, and i know the term "deploy" is used, but i dont think it refers to the deployment phase, which is where people are being too hard trying to interpret the rules...Deploy is simply the act of putting models on the table, it can happen in any phase and is not restricted to the deployment phase. Where the rule for CtA states that you cant deploy within 12", it states when you are "deploying for battle"...i think this ONLY refers to the deployment phase, not once you enter your own movement phase...you have finished deploying for battle and are now fighting the battle...

The key problem point in the RAW is, "Where does it state that deploying for battle is finished with the Deployment Phase or the beginning of the First Turn?"

 

I largely agree on how you put your intentions, but RAI is not the point of a rules discussion, save as a side note. There are too many parties that make their own little House Rules (largely because of poor writing on GW's part) to stay with a RAI conclusion.

[Raeven]

 

I consider happening in the same phase, regardless of order, as happening at the same time. Same logic that follows with character upgrades in units. As long as things are legal at the end, route to the end doesn't matter.

That's fine, except the game doesn't work that way, and even less this edition than before.

 

All deployment doesn't always happen at the same time as there is Infiltration which requires it to happen after the standard deployment is complete. Scouting is also a redeployment which, by definition, happens after.

 

When moving units, you only have to deal with where units are during each individual unit's movement, not how they move all together.

 

A Deep Striking unit may only succeed in landing where units are at the beginning of a phase, not where and how they move after.

 

Not all shooting is done at the same time by a unit any more. A second unit can cut down a unit that started the phase in a transport.

 

Charging can cause a unit to be cut down by overwatch, and leave another charger unaffectable.

 

So, no, as much as you'd like, things in a phase do not happen at the same, per the rules as written.

 

 

 

More arbitrary time frames on things that are essentially happening at the same time.

 

Look, when you roll for reserves, you don't roll for each unit then deploy that unit.  Before anyone moves, you roll all your reserves first, then deploy them.  Yes, you go unit by unit, but they are essentially deploying at the same time...there is no set order in which you deploy your units.  You get to pick order and placement.  

 

The only restriction is CtA and DA, which limit how closely you can place deploying units from each other.

 

If you are arguing something else, you are going to have to be more ellaborate.. Because all you seem to be doing is reinforcing the idea that CtA is referring to the deployment phase only.  I'm allowing for the idea that they mean all the mini phases of deployment, since the rules aren't air tight.

[Teetengee]

Isn't there a step in the rules for setting up a game called "deploying for battle?" If so then the fact that the CtA rules use that exact phrase means that they (may?) be referring to purely the times described under that section. Sorry, I don't have my rule book on me right now, but that might solve the issue.

 

Summary: "deploying for battle" may be a reserved name with a defined purpose found elsewhere in the book.

[Gentlemanloser]

There's

 

"Preparing for Battle"

 

and

 

"Deployment"

 

But no "Deploying for Battle" that I could see.

[Teetengee]

Dang, ah well.

[Kristoff]

More arbitrary time frames on things that are essentially happening at the same time.

 

Look, when you roll for reserves, you don't roll for each unit then deploy that unit.  Before anyone moves, you roll all your reserves first, then deploy them.  Yes, you go unit by unit, but they are essentially deploying at the same time...there is no set order in which you deploy your units.  You get to pick order and placement.

But there is an order, even if that is determined by you, and that can affect who and what can deploy where.

 

The only restriction is CtA and DA, which limit how closely you can place deploying units from each other.

Even DA doesn't restrict how close you can, just how close you may want to deploy them together. The critical point here is that "deploying for battle" is not defined as being part of any one phase, pre-game or in-game, so can easily be interpreted as applying to both. Deployment is the only time where a specific phase is referenced, and CtA doesn't say that, currently.

 

If you are arguing something else, you are going to have to be more ellaborate.. Because all you seem to be doing is reinforcing the idea that CtA is referring to the deployment phase only.  I'm allowing for the idea that they mean all the mini phases of deployment, since the rules aren't air tight.

Then please reread what I have said. I have not supported anything for CtA applying only in Deployment, save by possible intention.

 

Right now, there are valid cases for either allowing or disallowing a unit to be summoned within 12" of a unit it is CtA with, and both are supported by Rules as Written.

 

On one hand, CtA is not written to expressly forbid only in deployment, but for any available deploying time.

 

On the other hand, the psychic power specifies that they must be summoned within CtA's range. More importantly, for two of them, it's within half! However, the power doesn't specifically override the CtA restriction, either.

 

At this point, I feel the full rule evidence has been presented, an email should be sent to Gamefaqs@gwplc.com regarding it, and it should be brought up as a possibility to your local TOs, so they can make temporary rulings.

 

As Ozshock pointed out, this will happen very rarely, as most people who will be summoning Daemons will generally be Chaos Battle Brothers anyway (one of the downsides to the new Allies Matrix). But there will be those who will be doing a codex Chaos Astra Militarum or their own recently turned Chaos Space Wolves/Angels/Eldar/Ultras/Orks, instead of going a Forgeworld route, and it will be brought up, so it is good to be aware of it and allow for a friendly discussion and/or quick die roll.

[Ozshock]

look at it this way...

 

CtA specifically mentions "deploying for battle"...you do not "deploy for battle" when you place deep striking units...you have already deployed for battle...you are now fighting the battle...imo it doesnt matter if the word "deploy" is being used or not...and thats all RAW...

 

i think this solves the argument...maybe i was too in depth with my last post but this was my last statement

 

the key line..."when deploying for battle"...you dont deploy for battle in your game turn...you have already deployed for battle

 

seems pretty clear cut to me

[Kristoff]

look at it this way...

 

CtA specifically mentions "deploying for battle"...you do not "deploy for battle" when you place deep striking units...you have already deployed for battle...you are now fighting the battle...imo it doesnt matter if the word "deploy" is being used or not...and thats all RAW...

 

i think this solves the argument...maybe i was too in depth with my last post but this was my last statement

 

the key line..."when deploying for battle"...you dont deploy for battle in your game turn...you have already deployed for battle

 

seems pretty clear cut to me

Again, that is an assumption, not fully defined by the rules. Not all units deploy at the same time. And the CtA only talks about the UNITS deploying for battle, not the detachments or the army, just the units. A unit coming in from Reserves or being Summoned is deploying for battle at that time just as any in the regular deployment.

[Ozshock]

semantics...

 

deploying for battle is the stage at which players deploy their troops ready to do battle...can argue otherwise but i see no distinction being needed...

 

deep strike comes after you have already deployed for battle...stop thinking of the unit as deploying seperately for battle to the rest of the army..."the army" has been deployed for battle, that unit is just being summoned DURING the battle...

 

you could argue your point all day but will finish with this...

 

why can CtA allies summon daemons in the first place if they werent allowed to? maybe GW need to be clearer for some of the wording on their rules, but at the end of the day, if a psyker can use Malefic spells, i see no reason to restrict them from using the summoning spells...otherwise why would they be able to get the primaris for starters?

 

"deploying for battle" happens in the deployment phase...if you want to argue that it does not then go ahead...its not clearly stated...but otherwise it IS referring to the deployment phase, anyone who thinks logically should come to the same conclusion...if its not written that clearly it just goes onto the pile of rules that GW hasnt bothered explaining properly...

 

another way to look at it...i know the wording says deploy...but reserves dont "deploy" on your table edge...they move onto it...DStrike happens in the movement phase, and actually says they count as having moved that phase...if you "deploy for battle" you are deploying stationary, "ready" to do battle...and havent even had a chance to move at all yet as the battle hasnt started...if reinforcements arrive, they dont arrive "deploying for battle" they arrive in the middle of the battle, if they arent ready for it they will get blown to pieces

[Morollan]

Sorry Ozshock, I don't wish to be rude and I don't necessarily disagree with the overall sentiment that this is clearly an unintended problem but pretty much everything you've said in your post is inaccurate or pure opinion.

 

The relevant rules are:

 

Conjurations

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.

 

 

Arriving by Deep Strike

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

 

 

Reserves
 

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

 

 

 

Allies

 

Units that will only ally ‘Come the Apocalypse’ are treated exactly like Desperate Allies, but cannot deploy within 12” of each other when they are deploying for battle.

 

 

Regardless of whether you feel these are semantics, when taken together it is very clear that by the rules as written a unit arriving via Deep Strike must be deployed and that CtA allies cannot be deployed within 12" of their allies, which therefore prevents them being summoned via Conjurations.

[Teetengee]

I would like to emphasize that "cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle" is clearly a different statement than "cannot deploy within 12" of each other (fullstop)" to the point that the first is very definitely conditioning clause 1 (the within 12" restriction) upon clause 2 (the when deploying for battle condition). This means that whether they may deploy within 12" when not deploying for battle is determined elsewhere by the rules, for instance deep strike, if it qualifies.

Important caveat:

I have merely shown that there exists a possible exception. I do not know whether deep strike counts as deploying for battle or just deploying generally. As far as I can tell such a distinction is not defined anywhere which means raw the CtA restriction may not work at all or may work in all cases of deployment. In any case this particular result means that if such a scenario occurs, there is no RAW answer and a house rule/roll off MUST me implemented. (RAW reason for house rule is found in the golden rule at the beginning of the book, which tells you to do so in such a scenario.)

[Gentlemanloser]

I think though, we'd have to show what Deployment exists that isn't Deployment for Battle.

 

Which will be impossible, as Deployment for Battle isn't a term used or defined elsewhere.

 

The most logical example of Deployment for Battle is any time a unit Deploys, as it's joining the battle.

[Morollan]

As you say, "Deploying for Battle" is not a defined term. It therefore has no bearing on how we deal with this situation which is clearly defined by the rules. We can argue RAW v RAI til the cows come home but RAW is very clear.

[Dam13n]

Morollan's point is well made.

 

Now were I to come across someone who wished to try their hand at Malefic powers without a Chaos psyker, I would still allow them to summon and not bind them by the "no deploy zone" created by CtA.  But that's purely because of the way I prefer to play games nowadays, with plenty of leeway in the rules when necessary (it makes for a more chilled out and fun game IMO).

 

I still would reckon that the RAI is that anyone with access to Malefic Daemonology can summon regardless of faction interaction, as why else would they have access to it in the first place?  But RAW is actually pretty clear (primarily because GW haven't defined the difference between deploying during the deployment phase and any other form of deploying during the game sufficiently).

[Kristoff]

semantics...

Why, yes, it is. The meaning of these words, whether defined internally or externally is how the rules interact.

 

Morollan's point is well made.

 

Now were I to come across someone who wished to try their hand at Malefic powers without a Chaos psyker, I would still allow them to summon and not bind them by the "no deploy zone" created by CtA.  But that's purely because of the way I prefer to play games nowadays, with plenty of leeway in the rules when necessary (it makes for a more chilled out and fun game IMO).

 

I still would reckon that the RAI is that anyone with access to Malefic Daemonology can summon regardless of faction interaction, as why else would they have access to it in the first place?  But RAW is actually pretty clear (primarily because GW haven't defined the difference between deploying during the deployment phase and any other form of deploying during the game sufficiently).

Agreed, or at least, it can be easily confused as to how the RAW is supposed to work. That makes this issue a good candidate for emailing in to the GW's FAQ team.

[Teetengee]

Definitely. It would be nice if they clarify in such a way as to define (games rules wise) what deploying for battle is.

My main worry now is about other deepstriking and outflanking units, since it looks like this rule question is a lot bigger than just summoned daemons.

[Kristoff]

Definitely. It would be nice if they clarify in such a way as to define (games rules wise) what deploying for battle is.

My main worry now is about other deepstriking and outflanking units, since it looks like this rule question is a lot bigger than just summoned daemons.

True, but not as much in one respect. Daemon summoning happens in such a way that they must deploy within 12" or less of the psyker, with no choice in the matter. Other deploying methods at least have a chance to avoid it.

 

But CtA Alliances are more common now, especially for those who had armies that were just Convenient in 6th.

[Teetengee]

Of course, but there are still huge tactical decisions, for instance, being within 1" of an enemy causing a problem but being within 12" of a friendly causing problems too?

[Raeven]

Morollan's point is well made.

 

Now were I to come across someone who wished to try their hand at Malefic powers without a Chaos psyker, I would still allow them to summon and not bind them by the "no deploy zone" created by CtA.  But that's purely because of the way I prefer to play games nowadays, with plenty of leeway in the rules when necessary (it makes for a more chilled out and fun game IMO).

 

I still would reckon that the RAI is that anyone with access to Malefic Daemonology can summon regardless of faction interaction, as why else would they have access to it in the first place?  But RAW is actually pretty clear (primarily because GW haven't defined the difference between deploying during the deployment phase and any other form of deploying during the game sufficiently).

 

 

I agree...I feel that when the rules explicitly tell you to do something a certain way, it trumps a rule that tells you how you would do the same thing in normal situations.  It does make for more enjoyable and challenging games when you take the rules at their face value and don't go looking for conflicts that you are inevitably going to find.  

 

In this case, you have two rules giving you full out permission.  Rule 1.   Every Psyker has access to the Daemonology powers.  Rule 2.  The powers themselves tell you how they work...putting them out of the category of what should be considered "Deploying for battle".  Common sense tells us Summoning is not the same as Deploying regularly.  

[Kristoff]

Common sense tells us...

And historical records can identify how often that is used in writing rules for Warhammer, sadly.

[Raeven]

Can it? Or is it the lack of reading the rules using common sense that is the real issue?

 

They pretty much tell you in the beginning of the book that things are going to conflict and to play the game the way that is the most fun. GW may not make air tight rules, but they do build a solid game. Otherwise, why are we all here?

[Kristoff]

Can it? Or is it the lack of reading the rules using common sense that is the real issue?

 

They pretty much tell you in the beginning of the book that things are going to conflict and to play the game the way that is the most fun. GW may not make air tight rules, but they do build a solid game. Otherwise, why are we all here?

We are in the Rule forum because they DON'T build a solid game, just a fun universe with pretty soldier dolls. Compare to most other game rules forums, Warhammer ones are quite large, and repetitive.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Rule 1.   Every Psyker has access to the Daemonology powers.

 

This isn't correct.

 

The Grey Knights have no access to Malefic Daemonolgoy, and now it's got an update, nor do C:I Psykers.

 

Unless you mean a catch all for Santic and Malefiic....

[JamesI]

 

Rule 1.   Every Psyker has access to the Daemonology powers.

 

This isn't correct.

 

The Grey Knights have no access to Malefic Daemonolgoy, and now it's got an update, nor do C:I Psykers.

 

Unless you mean a catch all for Santic and Malefiic....

 

SAntic and MAlefic are both called Daemonolgy in the rulebook.