++Take Their Skulls! Daemons of Khorne Thread++

[OnboardG1]

I'm planning on getting the start collecting for the AoS event and run them alongside my CSM in 40k. Looking forward to painting some red.

[Khornestar]

I chucked 30 bloodletters at a storm surge yesterday, and did like... 6 unsaved wounds. Maybe not the best target, but it was fun. :P

[CrystalSeer]

As a counter argument to the "Bloodletter Bomb is the only thing worth it" crowd, that only works when you have enough room to drop the unit. It makes it extremely vulnerable to bubble wrapping, and will quickly get blasted off the board if you can't do sufficient damage in that first wave.

 

It makes more sense to use a nuanced approach; coming in with several waves that are designed to dissect an enemy defensive position. Axe Prince or thirsters are designed well for knocking out armor and heavy mech, while small units of letters are good for cleaning up chaff units. I'm thinking crushers are good for the initial push; breaking an enemy formation while taking minimal losses from overwatch. Hounds look good for locking up shooting and acting as a counter to smite. They also get a disproportionate effect from the 'reality blinks' ability.

 

One of the things that always struck me about Khorne was how intricate assaults could be.

[Khornestar]

My bloodletters are all on 25 mm bases, so that could have something to do with it, but they weren't so hard to fit in a relatively small corner of the board. Your point is well taken, though. It isn't just a magic bullet.

 

If deep striking a blood thirster, I think doing it simultaneously with bloodletters is the only way. He won't be protected from shooting the way a daemon prince will (due to # of wounds), so if/when the thirster fails his charge, at least the bloodletters are tying up units that would otherwise shoot him to pieces.

 

I had the bloodletters and daemon prince deep strike into one corner of the board, then had a dreadclaw with berzerkers come down across from them. I held my other dreadclaw in reserves to wait for the counterdeployment of deep striking Farsight and friends.

 

Unfortunately we didn't even make it to my 2nd assault phase, as my opponent had to leave to handle non-hobby related responsibilities. Wish I could have seen how it played out.

[CrystalSeer]

I'd try to drop the bloodthirsters after most small arms are destroyed. That way he can concentrate on heavy hitters, and they will have a lot more trouble taking him out.

 

Plus, the 4++ relic and +1 save strategem is really nice for a turn of survivability.

[Cheex]

I'm a big proponent of the Daemonbomb, but I'd never consider it my only weapon in a list.

 

My current list is below. It does have a significant Daemonbomb element, but it also has a solid 2nd and 3rd wave to follow up on the bomb. Being slightly smaller squads, they should be able to fit on the table more comfortably and I can even split their drop if I need to.

 

Haven't had a chance to try it out yet (still painting a few of the models), but it feels like it could work.

 

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Chaos - Daemons) [100 PL, 1993pts] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Chaos Allegiance: Khorne

 

+ HQ +

 

Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 180pts]: Khorne, Oblivious to Pain, Skullreaver, Warlord, Wings

 

Bloodmaster [3 PL, 56pts]: Blade of Blood

 

Skulltaker [5 PL, 84pts]

 

+ Troops +

 

Bloodletters [8 PL, 165pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

 

Bloodletters [8 PL, 165pts]: 19x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

 

Bloodletters [4 PL, 80pts]: 9x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

 

Bloodletters [4 PL, 80pts]: 9x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

 

Bloodletters [4 PL, 80pts]: 9x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

 

Bloodletters [4 PL, 80pts]: 9x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Instrument of Chaos

 

+ Elites +

 

Bloodcrushers [8 PL, 166pts]: 2x Bloodcrusher, Bloodhunter, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

 

Bloodcrushers [8 PL, 166pts]: 2x Bloodcrusher, Bloodhunter, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

 

Bloodcrushers [8 PL, 166pts]: 2x Bloodcrusher, Bloodhunter, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Flesh Hounds [4 PL, 75pts]: 5x Flesh Hound

 

Flesh Hounds [4 PL, 75pts]: 5x Flesh Hound

 

Flesh Hounds [4 PL, 75pts]: 5x Flesh Hound

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Skull Cannon [5 PL, 100pts]

 

Skull Cannon [5 PL, 100pts]

 

Skull Cannon [5 PL, 100pts]

 

++ Total: [100 PL, 1993pts] ++

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Just picked up the codex and have been reading through it. Any models that were no in the index that you would now considered taking? 

Edited January 21, 2018 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Khornestar]

I’d consider skull cannons, I s’pose. 100 points for that shooting doesn’t seem terrible at all.

[CrystalSeer]

These lists raise an interesting question: how many CP do we need? Is it better to restrict your choices to go for the brigade? Or are we better off optimizing the list with a battalion?

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I've noticed the bloodthrone isn't a very popular HQ choice right now, is that mostly because of it's cost? I was reading into it a little more tonight and it doesn't really seems that bad. I like some of the buffs it gives and the "crushing impact" ability definitely seems like some nice extra damage. 

[Cheex]

I've noticed the bloodthrone isn't a very popular HQ choice right now, is that mostly because of it's cost? I was reading into it a little more tonight and it doesn't really seems that bad. I like some of the buffs it gives and the "crushing impact" ability definitely seems like some nice extra damage.

For me, it's the slow speed. It seems nice and killy, but it doesn't have a good way of reaching the enemy. At least it's still got character targeting protections, but that's about it.

[Stross]

So, I tried pair of lists here. 

 

The first:

 

High Command

 

An'ggrath (Warlord, 6+++ with rerolls aftermath) 

Daemon Prince with sword (relic: Crimsot Crown)

Herold of Khorne 

 

Batallion 

 

Herold of Tzeench

Karanak 

 

30xBloodletters 

30xPink Horrors 

30xPink Horros 

 

So, what can I say? I am out of CP, because all of them goes on deepstriking letters, big daemon and DP. 

They kill a lot of things, but next many dakka obliterate lettters without any chance alond side with DP. But Horrors was hard to put down and 90 shots from two packs is just ridiculous, especiall with +1 str from Herold. 

And big guy kills everything, FNP was adding him a lot as well. So despite heavy casualties, there is a solid chance to win.

 

Next I use two bloodletter bombs with Abaddon, termies with pair of claws, berzerkers on droppod,  Karanak and 8 ten man squads of cultsits because I was needed half troops on the ground. 

And I was not that impressed this time. I expected for CSM part to dig and stuck into toughness 5 models, not charging with rerolls and other things. 

But I didn't expect, that my bloodletters only kill 3 zoantrops and 30man squad of termaugants... and I fight for 3 CP. 3++ invuln and without rerolling 1's to hit... this is not good even hitting on 2+. The other pack killed only 6 genestealers (not so many of them could fight because of terrain). And then 14 genestealers killed both squads in two next turns... 

I can't say that cubes were bad for me, so I don't know what to say. Bloodletters bomb are good, but need to choose a perfect situation and good enemy for them to kill. 

[Commissar K.]

@ Cheex, swarm seems nice. You can even fill it up to 2000/2000 with one additional Bloodletter :P 

@ Stross, interesting mix. I do wonder how much you want An'ggrath in mono Daemons but I'm looking forward to hear the results.

As before I believe that especially for mono Daemons their strongest asset remains to have the massive numbers in troops so to be honest I think Cheex' and Stross' lists could even be better when they would even further focus down on troops. Because frankly speaking while Bloodcrushers and Skulcannons are awesome models I really believe MOAR BLOODLETTERS is a stronger choice. It builds attrition, it's cheap for what it does and can mow down anything.
These other units are certainly not terrible but pushing the infantry power is something I feel must be done for competitive mono-Daemon builds. 

For 2000 points I'd personally also include a Daemon prince with the Skullreaver. He's still kind of expensive for a melee character but does the job well in hunting down big things. In addition I do think having enough Locus is quite important for Khorne. I also think that Karanak, all costs considered, remains a must-thake for Khorne. Locus and double Psycic stopping options are better as none at all. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

For me, it's the slow speed. It seems nice and killy, but it doesn't have a good way of reaching the enemy. At least it's still got character targeting protections, but that's about it.

 

 

What about deepstriking it in with Bloodletters via the stratagem? That's how I was planning on using it. 

[Commissar K.]

 

For me, it's the slow speed. It seems nice and killy, but it doesn't have a good way of reaching the enemy. At least it's still got character targeting protections, but that's about it.

 

 

What about deepstriking it in with Bloodletters via the stratagem? That's how I was planning on using it. 

 

Thats the best choice by far!

 

Also here I think a very worthy consideration goes to two Khorne Daemon princes, one armed with Skullreaver and one armed with A'grath. I think wings arn't massively required which makes them very killy for costs.

[Lagrath]

If you play ITC, at a major event, they will force you to play 25mm as if they were 32mm. I'm buying conversion rings to take on and off.

[Khornestar]

Well, no worry of that ever happening, but surely good to know for those who might.

[Cheex]

As before I believe that especially for mono Daemons their strongest asset remains to have the massive numbers in troops so to be honest I think Cheex' and Stross' lists could even be better when they would even further focus down on troops. Because frankly speaking while Bloodcrushers and Skulcannons are awesome models I really believe MOAR BLOODLETTERS is a stronger choice. It builds attrition, it's cheap for what it does and can mow down anything.

These other units are certainly not terrible but pushing the infantry power is something I feel must be done for competitive mono-Daemon builds.

My list already has 80 bloodletters, which is all I have painted and I do not intend to paint more :P (Not entirely true; I'm painting a few more so I can swap out icons and instruments if needed.)

 

I would also argue that daemons are especially CP-hungry, so all those other units are practically necessary for a brigade anyway. I would need at least another 3 squads of bloodletters and 3 HQs just to match the CP gain with battalions.

 

As it is, I think bloodcrushers and skull cannons work well in support of a daemonbomb. The bomb drops on T1 or T2, the bloodcrushers and flesh hounds charge as the second wave, and the rest of the bloodletters form the third wave. All the while, skull cannons are focusing down enemy screening units where possible.

 

I'm looking forward to getting this list out, but unfortunately it won't be for at least another couple of weeks.

[Stross]

@ Stross, interesting mix. I do wonder how much you want An'ggrath in mono Daemons but I'm looking forward to hear the results.

 

He is awesome, I think it is possible to take him into CSM army, even for his points. He can't be killed in the first turn like some super heavy tanks and a perfect fire magnet. And we can use stratagems on him. He don't get locus, because LOW detachment don't get any traits. But it is possible to take him with high command with two herolds, for example. 

[swordofmandulis]

Stross, can you point me to where it says you don't get the traits for a super heavy auxillary detachment please. The way I read it in the codex was that it was the auxillary support detachment that didn't, as it specifically named that one, not the super heavy auxillary.

 

So I ran exactly that, An'ggrath, 29 Berserkers, Khârn, 3 Rhinos, Daemon prince, forgefiend. Over 5 games this weekend and it was so brutal, An'ggrath can be killed in a turn if you fail the charge and are unlucky with saves, but I found him to be well worth his cost and in the 4 wins I had he killed equal to or more than his points.

Edited January 23, 2018 by swordofmandulis

[OnboardG1]

I thought the LoW detatchment only lost traits in a guard army?

[swordofmandulis]

having looked into it i'm pretty sure that is correct @OnboardG1

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I'm pretty sure Super-Heavy Auxiliary detachments don't "lose" traits but cannot grant access to them by themselves.. i.e. as long as you have a Patrol, Battalion, Brigade, etc... along with a SHAD then you have traits no problem. 

[swordofmandulis]

Bloody Legionnaire, I can't find anything that supports that, it seems Astra militarum got a special rule in their codex specifically saying that, but in the Daemons codex it specifically states not in Auxillary Support Detachments, no mention of Super heavy Auxillary. This also doesn't apply to any of the other codexes I own.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

The only section I have found anything listing limitations is in reference to Stratagems. The Stratagem section states, "If your army is Battle-forged and includes any Chaos Daemons Detachments (excluding Auxiliary Support Detachments), you have access to  the Stratagems..."

Under Daemonic Loci the rules state "If your Army is Battle-forged all CHARACTERS in Chaos Daemons Detachments gain a Daemonic Locus...."
-No mention of anything to do with what type of detachments. 

 

Warlord Traits section states, "If a CHARACTER with the DAEMON faction key word is your Warlord, it can generate a Warlord Trait from one of the following tables..."

 

C:Death Guard and C:CSM all have the same language. Under the Stratagem section I am certain that is trying to state that having an Auxiliary Support Detachment alone does not grant Access to Stratagems. I do not take that to mean Stratagems cannot be used on them. I don't see anything at all excluding a LoW from any sort of "trait" or "Loci." What section is everyone looking at that I am missing?