Scale and silhouette of legacy Adeptus Astartes

[Lucerne]

 

Space Marines haven't changed much since 1990. 

 

  

 

Just to be clear, the model on the left is an early third edition Tactical Marine and the model on the right is an Intercessor scaled down so the bases match better.

 

The only major differences are the size of the bolt weapon and the helmet style. I highly doubt GW will green light an upscaled Mk6-8 kit over those two major differences. The rest of the differences are either obscured (abdomen armoring for example) or knees. I think it is much more likely that in some far distant future when we get Intercessor kit 2.0 that it includes those sorts of details.

 

...The entire torso and leg designs are completely and obviously different. The backpack is bulkier. The arms are reinforced. There's plenty of visual difference and trying to shoehorn a Firstborn look into the overdesigned Intercessor look without rebuilding it from the ground up, ie: giving it its own damned release rather than churning out yet another Intercessor-alike, is doomed to failure.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Lucerne

[Robbienw]

 

Your definition of a classic marine is....very odd. I haven’t heard anyone else refer to classic marines in this way.

The generally accepted definition is anything that came before Primaris, the standard marine type, the only marine type until 2017. It’s definetly the design style.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is what I am referring to when I say classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

Size is completely irrelevant.

It’s a little inconsistent though. I’m the years just before 2017 mk9 was added, and centurions. Your saying anything before 2017 is classic as a hard cutoff date

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying up until 2017 there was only one type of marine. Then Primaris came along and there was two types.

 

There has never been any mk9 armour.

[War Angel]

 

 

Your definition of a classic marine is....very odd. I haven’t heard anyone else refer to classic marines in this way.

The generally accepted definition is anything that came before Primaris, the standard marine type, the only marine type until 2017. It’s definetly the design style.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is what I am referring to when I say classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

Size is completely irrelevant.

It’s a little inconsistent though. I’m the years just before 2017 mk9 was added, and centurions. Your saying anything before 2017 is classic as a hard cutoff date

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying up until 2017 there was only one type of marine. Then Primaris came along and there was two types.

There has never been any mk9 armour.

Ment mark 8, errant armor.

 

So it comes back to this. Is the classic distinction because a new style of armor came out? Or because a new size came out? When mark 8 came out they didn’t become classic. So by that logic, mark 10 didn’t make the distinction, size did. Thus, large MK6 marines won’t be resized classic marines.

[jaxom]

I think at this point we're in a semantic black hole.

[Robbienw]

It’s because a new design type of marine came out, that is distinct in fiction and has distinct design differences. Mk8 marines are definitely classics, they are standard Space Marines, not Primaris!

 

Any marine model who is not a Primaris is a classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

 

I don’t think I can be clearer than that.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Robbienw

[Blindhamster]

It’s because a new design type of marine came out, that is distinct in fiction and has distinct design differences. Mk8 marines are definitely classics, they are standard Space Marines, not Primaris!

 

Any marine model who is not a Primaris is a classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

 

I don’t think I can be clearer than that.

its literally in their rules, forgetting anything else lol.

[Robbienw]

Keywords.

[War Angel]

 

It’s because a new design type of marine came out, that is distinct in fiction and has distinct design differences. Mk8 marines are definitely classics, they are standard Space Marines, not Primaris!

Any marine model who is not a Primaris is a classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

I don’t think I can be clearer than that.

 

its literally in their rules, forgetting anything else lol.

Yes, but we’re not talking about the rules of models, we’re talking about the models themselves. And we’re not talking about the names of models, that never created a distinction between any boxes. We’re talking about if they ever make a new kit of larger tactical marines. The old kit would still be classical, but the new models would not, as they would be in the new size that GW has chosen to go forward with.

[jaxom]

 

...The entire torso and leg designs are completely and obviously different. The backpack is bulkier. The arms are reinforced. There's plenty of visual difference and trying to shoehorn a Firstborn look into the overdesigned Intercessor look without rebuilding it from the ground up, ie: giving it its own damned release rather than churning out yet another Intercessor-alike, is doomed to failure.

 

The torso and thighs are mostly not visible the majority of space marine poses. The backpack is to scale, but not bulkier. Perhaps a better example of what I was referring to as key design elements is this short (2:13) video for Superman's 75th anniversary. There are unifying visual elements which are important for identifying the product, but details are free to change or so minute as to not matter (like the color of the belt when the hip area is red). Space Marines are all about that Zaku silhouette. The individual marks of armour are more about the pauldrons and helmet areas. Someone looking for Eagle Armour or Errant Armour won't be looking for the armoured abdomen, but the gorget. Mk6 called 'beaky' instead of 'tri-cable'. 

 

It’s because a new design type of marine came out, that is distinct in fiction and has distinct design differences. Mk8 marines are definitely classics, they are standard Space Marines, not Primaris!

 

Any marine model who is not a Primaris is a classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

 

I don’t think I can be clearer than that.

 

That's clear, just using the term 'classic' without the definition was less so. Classics usually represent wholes, "a classic example of a muscle car," or, "a classic Van Gogh." The mix of armour marks in the tactical box, from my perspective, means there's a classic example of each of them. For example, the RT box for beakies, and these for pretty much everything else.

Edited August 17, 2020 by jaxom

[Blindhamster]

 

 

It’s because a new design type of marine came out, that is distinct in fiction and has distinct design differences. Mk8 marines are definitely classics, they are standard Space Marines, not Primaris!

Any marine model who is not a Primaris is a classic (or standard, or firstborn) marine.

I don’t think I can be clearer than that.

its literally in their rules, forgetting anything else lol.

Yes, but we’re not talking about the rules of models, we’re talking about the models themselves. And we’re not talking about the names of models, that never created a distinction between any boxes. We’re talking about if they ever make a new kit of larger tactical marines. The old kit would still be classical, but the new models would not, as they would be in the new size that GW has chosen to go forward with.

 

 

Remember, the thing many dont like about primaris, is their lore. When most people make the distinction between primaris and classic marines, they are literally making that distinction, its not a scale thing.

 

I guess hell has frozen over because it's one of those rare occasions I agree with robbienw haha. If they make more marines and they don't have the primaris keyword, they aren't primaris and are firstborn/classic/old marines/whatever. If they're the same scale as the heroes stuff, they're still not primaris, if they're the same scale as primaris but don't have the primaris keyword, they still aren't primaris.

 

Classic marines = firstborn, regardless of the type. Sure you can break down classic into further distinctions, but they're still classic marines.

 

I still think the point will be moot eventually, as I still think eventually the primaris keyword will go away and it'll all just be marines. What exactly that means for lore, i don't know. But If the marine codex was bloated before, it's incredibly so now.

 

 

anyway, the thing i still happily disagree with some others on here, is that the sillhouette has changed in any major notable way. It really hasn't, at least, no more than the various other marine armour marks have. They all share key signature things that identify them as a warhammmer 40,000 space marine of some kind.The divergences in that sillhouette for a primaris intercessor are no more dramatic than a mk3 or m2 marine, in fact in many ways they're less dramatic.That's clearly intentional on GWs side. In fact, the sillhouette for gravis armour is actually STILL very very similar to the standard marine sillhouette too - which is also clearly intentional. Phobos is more divergent for sure though, same goes for the omnis one.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Blindhamster

[War Angel]

Ok, I understand what your saying, and I’m thinking that I’m not articulating this properly. Ignoring keywords, because one day they might get rid of those for whatever reason. Just because it looks like A beakie Marine, it wouldn’t be classic if it was in the new size. If everything they make from here on out is in the new size, but you keep calling it classic because the armor is the same, then your taking away from what is really the classic marine, the models that were designed pre 8th.

 

Or maybe that point can’t exist until those changes happen? Maybe I have too much foresight to be able to explain this at this present point in time? If that’s the case I’ll just have to wait I guess.

[Blindhamster]

if we mean classic as in "original" then as Jaxom said, we aren't talking about stuff later than the RT101 set or other similar marines, but I don't think that's what the majority of people in this thread are talking about - to them classic marines are marines that aren't primaris marines. Which isn't a scale thing, its purely based on a combination of lore and visual aesthetic.

 

but from a silhouette perspective, they're all just marines, be they Rogue trader era stuff, 3rd ed stuff, late 7th ed stuff (like deathwatch) or primaris. They all have differences, but none of those differences are large enough for it not to be recognisably a space marine.

[Dracos]

 . . . to them classic marines are marines that aren't primaris marines. Which isn't a scale thing, its purely based on a combination of lore and visual aesthetic.

 

classic marines are marines that aren't primaris marines : agreed

 

Which isn't a scale thing : disagreed

 

it's purely based on a combination of lore and visual aesthetic : partially agree

 

Lore yeah, but aesthetic can be defined by size differences along with the other factors such as it's Primaris less baroque armor. 

 

 

This much like the 2W discussions. Either you're over invested in Primaris being distinct from Firstborn with rules as well as models, you believe in the near-ish future there wil be a melding that eliminates the diversity between the two, or you are a hater that says they hate the lore and models but honestly its all about size, because size matters.

 

 

Don't argue with trolls they only die if you light them on fire.

[War Angel]

classic marines are marines that aren't primaris marines : agreed

 

Which isn't a scale thing : disagreed

 

it's purely based on a combination of lore and visual aesthetic : partially agree

 

Lore yeah, but aesthetic can be defined by size differences along with the other factors such as it's Primaris less baroque armor.

Seeing it put that way helps.

 

Edit: Messed up the quote

Edited August 18, 2020 by War Angel

[Marshal Reinhard]

Ok, I understand what your saying, and I’m thinking that I’m not articulating this properly. Ignoring keywords, because one day they might get rid of those for whatever reason. Just because it looks like A beakie Marine, it wouldn’t be classic if it was in the new size. If everything they make from here on out is in the new size, but you keep calling it classic because the armor is the same, then your taking away from what is really the classic marine, the models that were designed pre 8th.

 

Or maybe that point can’t exist until those changes happen? Maybe I have too much foresight to be able to explain this at this present point in time? If that’s the case I’ll just have to wait I guess.

 

I feel like I got a grasp of what you're going for.

 

I'd say as an academic excersize you can expand into three dimensions where Primaris distinguish themselves from Classic marines: Lore, Game crunch and Model line.

 

Lore is pretty self explanatory, and often the main reason why old timers will reject Primaris, I find. Primaris are clearly described as a new stage of marine transformation, with additional organs and new gear. Guilliman rewrote the codex astartes to take into the account of Primaris marines.

 

Game crunch, is their in game rules on the table top. Here you got the stats and your keywords. This has been blurred a bit according to many, in the granting of an extra wound to classic marines, which was previously unique to Primaris. It's the most malleable of the three and could potentially go away (they lose the keywords etc).

 

Lastly we got the model line, and the main reason I at least, moved on from classic marines. The classic marine model line, venerable as it is, had a lot of historic baggage with it, most pertaining to scale, and proportions and some dated elements (I'm mostly thinking of the box butts here). There was huge discrepancy between how the models looked and compared to other models (guardsmen) and how marines in the lore compared to those guardsmen. Primaris began as a project to address the scale issue, even, according to Jes Goodwin. Anyway I suppose you could say this one is a lot about size.

 

My point is even if a new model is designed, (in old armour) that has its size fixed, there's still 2 other areas to contend with wether its Primaris or not (or reversedly, classic or not)

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think they will rescale them. To me, the scale is not it. New CSM are still CSM.

 

I agree that they will merge them. Lorewise, they essentially have recreated the Great Crusade, where there were many terran recruits merged with those ascended from the primarch's homeworld. These evolved into something else, depending on the legion.

 

Will the chapter just dispose of venerable wargear? I doubt it. They will make Land Raiders, etc. work. Primaris can obviously be made to fit in a box dreadnought.

 

After 150 years, by the plague wars, we should be seeing all these things ironed out.

[Marshal Rohr]

If they want to sell more oldmarines they’ll have to rescale the entire range to the new chaos size. On average it takes about a week to extend the legs on my mark 4-3 models by ~4mm and when I do they just feel so much more appropriate next to new Chaos and Death Guard, and even Primaris (though my 40K project is pure primaris). I’ve tried to get people onto the extend leg train but the amount of work is daunting. Edited September 1, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Grim Dog Studios]

If they want to sell more oldmarines they’ll have to rescale the entire range to the new chaos size. On average it takes about a week to extend the legs on my mark 4-3 models by ~4mm and when I do they just feel so much more appropriate next to new Chaos and Death Guard, and even Primaris (though my 40K project is pure primaris). I’ve tried to get people onto the extend leg train but the amount of work is daunting.

 

As a "fellow leg extender" for my 30K Ultramarines, its an arduous process but definitely worth it. It makes the marines look far more formidable when up against opponents such as imperial guard etc

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here’s an OG Marine model you can see the torso, pretty much everything due to the pose:

 

 

Just doesn’t have the same look and feel as a Primaris. Seeing how much GeeDub has sunk into Primaris I don’t see OG Marines getting anything new or rescaled but as stated there’s always the option to convert them or just Primaris and say they are OG .

[Inquisitor lorr]

Man, this whole thread is a headache and deliberately obtuse. Clearly there is a distinction between updating a line (which is plainly what upscale old marines would be) vs a separate line of models sufficiently different to branch off on their own and not merely be an update.

 

Metal cadians to plastic cadians, was an update. The models were refreshed but the core remained, and the units/the role/the fluff etc was largely unchanged.

 

Old marines to primaris has now unlocked what can be used as an entirely standalone army, countless characters, whole new units (in fluff, crunch and models), whole new battlefield roles. That is not simply an update. That is a new line of models. There is a divide between classic and primaris.

 

Viewed in the above light it is pretty clear that there would still remain the distinction between ‘classic’ marines and primaris, even if the classic marines are upscaled. The comparison between previous marks of classic marine armour is a false equivalent - for one, parts for these models (not including the ancient metal models) were often provided in the same kit, and (pre-HH) there were never really enough to make many marines in each MK. Those parts were simply some variety to add to your lines, and went along with the fluff of interchangeable armour, marines holding on to relics etc. They were all still clearly the same range and classic marines.

 

It boils down to, would you reasonably say the upscale CSM aren’t CSM? No.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, they would still be SM.

 

They will not do a new SM kit with the same clamshell torsos on a ball socket with squat legs. I don't even think they will for HH plastics, as the MK III kit is clearly transitional between old/primaris build style

 

Any new tactical kit for example will build pretty much like the primaris line is what I think.

 

The only real differences between the build of a primaris and most firstborn kits are that the legs are split, and that the torso joins with the legs. Splitting the legs into two pieces was done as well on the mk III kit already, and the new CSM now does it with the torso.

Edited September 6, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion