New Supplements, New Primaris Units

[phandaal]

 

So I think when we think whether a chapter 'makes sense' to have unique units with its successors is more a function of how much they've stuck together over 10,000 years, not necessarily their adherence to the organization of the Codex Astartes.

 

Really it comes down to the lore. Some chapters are specifically noted to adhere to the codex 100% with absolutely no deviations. Others have established unique structures or units.

 

Continuing the Dark Angels example, they follow the codex for their 3rd-10th companies, if for no other reason than to keep the powers-that-be from getting suspicious. So those companies would not make sense to get special "Dark Angels only" stuff. The really unique stuff for Dark Angels comes from their 1st and 2nd companies where they preserved two "wings" of their old Legion structure.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Absolutely, it's the lore there. Raven Guard for instance have their Mor Deythan traits as part of their geneseed, so that's ready pickings for one of those other chapters to have something across them and their successors. The Salamanders had no successors until now, and could start coordinating with them and easily do that.

 

But like, why would the Genesis chapter after 10,000 years of separation and no coordination between them randomly pick up formations that say the Ultramarines do, and not do their own thing? To me it's less would they have their own thing, but more why would it be the same between them? Those two chapters haven't shared a command structure or ways of warfare beyond the Codex that normalizes them since the Horus Heresy.

Edited February 10, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Dark Shepherd]

As much as anything, Codex Compliant was a shortcut to saying the 6 founding legions/chapters that arent DA/SW/BA, ie the ones with separate codexes for sale

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I don't think compliance or not with the Codex Astartes is relevant to whether a unique unit makes sense. What matters is the cohesiveness of those chapters over the last 10,000 years. The Blood Angels have maintained their Sanguinary Guard, and most importantly have maintained the Sanguinary Priests and Death Company due to the nature of the Black Rage.

 

The Dark Angels have essentially maintained a legion command structure with those unique elements directly implemented and strong adherence to the same way of warfare across all the chapters.

 

So I think when we think whether a chapter 'makes sense' to have unique units with its successors is more a function of how much they've stuck together over 10,000 years, not necessarily their adherence to the organization of the Codex Astartes.

exactly.

There are numerous things that could cause a chapter to create a unique unit. Maybe Dorn had his own honor guard with shields and bolters?

Maybe the Raven guard made a desperate attack with a sneaky Phobos unit, and gave them Pswords so they could do more damage once behind enemy lines, and they did so well, it became a special unit unique to them, and they quietly passed the life hack on to a few successors who then passed it on to others, etc.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Schlitzaf]

A unique unit should be noticablt differenr and add SOMETHING to the armt not replicable by current units. Primaris SBro, and Primaris DCompany are great modern examples.*

 

*I pick them out as end of the day they are essentially VetCessors w/ Spec Rules & Gear. But lose Dbl Shoot & Sgt.

 

Specifically most modern unique units are likelt gonna be based on thay core concept. VetCessors then adding a chapter rule + chapter gear options = new toy

[WrathOfTheLion]

I'd almost be more interested if there was some sort of 'deviation' units, where if you're a successor of the UM, IF, etc., you can choose up to say 1 of those datasheets. Then you could in head canon decide what that means in the context of your chapter.

 

Then if I play say, the Novamarines, I could fill in their ways vs just being given access to Tyrannic war veterans or something else they have no real reason to be fielding.

Edited February 10, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A unique unit should be noticablt differenr and add SOMETHING to the armt not replicable by current units. Primaris SBro, and Primaris DCompany are great modern examples.*

 

*I pick them out as end of the day they are essentially VetCessors w/ Spec Rules & Gear. But lose Dbl Shoot & Sgt.

 

Specifically most modern unique units are likelt gonna be based on thay core concept. VetCessors then adding a chapter rule + chapter gear options = new toy

what exactly do primaris death company add?

[WrathOfTheLion]

Adding my take on that, not necessarily theirs.

 

They add representing an integral part of the Blood Angels lore via the Primaris model range. They're relatively good as well with the more recent points drops.

 

But if comparing to whether they 'add more' compared to the existing Death Company, I don't know, but they at least do add something to the table vs say Hounds of Morkai, which just don't quite do it, although a cool concept to add more back in for the Cult of Morkai.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Adding my take on that, not necessarily theirs.

 

They add representing an integral part of the Blood Angels lore via the Primaris model range. They're relatively good as well with the more recent points drops.

 

But if comparing to whether they 'add more' compared to the existing Death Company, I don't know, but they at least do add something to the table vs say Hounds of Morkai, which just don't quite do it, although a cool concept to add more back in for the Cult of Morkai.

when compared to FBDC they don’t add anything at all, and leaving them as normal or assault intercessors only is completely arbitrary.

[phandaal]

 

Adding my take on that, not necessarily theirs.

 

They add representing an integral part of the Blood Angels lore via the Primaris model range. They're relatively good as well with the more recent points drops.

 

But if comparing to whether they 'add more' compared to the existing Death Company, I don't know, but they at least do add something to the table vs say Hounds of Morkai, which just don't quite do it, although a cool concept to add more back in for the Cult of Morkai.

when compared to FBDC they don’t add anything at all, and leaving them as normal or assault intercessors only is completely arbitrary.

 

 

Primaris have access to some strategems that OG Marines cannot use, so there is that.

[Schlitzaf]

 

A unique unit should be noticablt differenr and add SOMETHING to the armt not replicable by current units. Primaris SBro, and Primaris DCompany are great modern examples.*

 

*I pick them out as end of the day they are essentially VetCessors w/ Spec Rules & Gear. But lose Dbl Shoot & Sgt.

 

Specifically most modern unique units are likelt gonna be based on thay core concept. VetCessors then adding a chapter rule + chapter gear options = new toy

what exactly do primaris death company add?

They…have DC rules? So FNP etc. Like SBros are basically VangVets. But theh add something to the army (ignoring passions) that makes them interesting. DC are (in theory) same way.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Sword bros ignoring passions don't really add anything to the army lol. I'd be far more excited if they got to choose multiple vows or something, but they're really just veteran assault intercessors.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Still waiting for unit wide transhuman coz… reasons :D

[redmapa]

For the codex adherent chapters we still have not gotten a proper replacement for Terminators, VanVets, Sternguard or Company Veterans. Now BGV do fill the role for close combat veterans but then there still isnt a Terminator equivalent or a shooty veteran unit and I think those niches are what the UM/IF/RG/WS/IH/Sallies might get in terms of unique units which can easily get their own spin in their respective supplements. Im still hoping to see Veteran Outriders with power weapons as the proper replacement for VanVets.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Still waiting for unit wide transhuman coz… reasons 

I think that relatively works with specific restrictions like having to take the DA package as is (you have no chapter tactic/doctrine customization to get that), but other than that, that unit would just get spammed to hell were it an unrestricted generic option. Would probably work relatively fine if scoped to a specific chapter (IF or something like that), because it would at least stop you from having complete open season on bonuses to pick and stack with it.

Edited February 11, 2022 by WrathOfTheLion

[Orange Knight]

"Codex adherent" simply indicates they use the correct codex structures and organisations.

 

In such a chapter, the 1st company is still made up of Veterans, and these veterans can have any number of unique wargear or combat preferences.

 

Even in the most Codex adherent chapter, you can have unique Veteran units that set them apart from other sub-factions. For example; Ultramarines could have veterans who fight with Gladius and Axe, the Imperial Fists could have a defensive Shield Host, the Raven Guard could have stealthy assassination units etc etc.

 

The idea that the Codex chapters can't have unique and themed units is pure nonesense.

[Dark Shepherd]

Nobody said they couldnt though, especially lorewise

 

There was a comment about whats likely to be released by GW, as a properly new unit and not just made from an upgrade sprue, but that was it

[phandaal]

For the codex adherent chapters we still have not gotten a proper replacement for Terminators, VanVets, Sternguard or Company Veterans. Now BGV do fill the role for close combat veterans but then there still isnt a Terminator equivalent or a shooty veteran unit and I think those niches are what the UM/IF/RG/WS/IH/Sallies might get in terms of unique units which can easily get their own spin in their respective supplements. Im still hoping to see Veteran Outriders with power weapons as the proper replacement for VanVets.

Attempting to replace Terminators would be a big mistake. Those are some of the most iconic models in the 40k franchise. It has been enduringly popular for the better part of 40 years.

 

On the flip side, GW could sell a boatload of new models if they offered a scaled-up Terminator and said "this has a Primaris Marine inside."

[Dark Shepherd]

The biggest sales boom theyll have since Primaris will be when they do rescaled first born

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

 

Adding my take on that, not necessarily theirs.

 

They add representing an integral part of the Blood Angels lore via the Primaris model range. They're relatively good as well with the more recent points drops.

 

But if comparing to whether they 'add more' compared to the existing Death Company, I don't know, but they at least do add something to the table vs say Hounds of Morkai, which just don't quite do it, although a cool concept to add more back in for the Cult of Morkai.

when compared to FBDC they don’t add anything at all, and leaving them as normal or assault intercessors only is completely arbitrary.

Primaris have access to some strategems that OG Marines cannot use, so there is that.

that doesn’t seem like enough to justify a unique unit though

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

that doesn’t seem like enough to justify a unique unit though

 

It all does while they have dumb design decisions like not allowing each to ride in the other transports. Yes, they could fold them into the same datasheet if they cleaned up the SM range design to remove some arbitrary distinctions, but they're here for now, so it is what it is.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

A unique unit should be noticablt differenr and add SOMETHING to the armt not replicable by current units. Primaris SBro, and Primaris DCompany are great modern examples.*

 

*I pick them out as end of the day they are essentially VetCessors w/ Spec Rules & Gear. But lose Dbl Shoot & Sgt.

 

Specifically most modern unique units are likelt gonna be based on thay core concept. VetCessors then adding a chapter rule + chapter gear options = new toy

what exactly do primaris death company add?

They…have DC rules? So FNP etc. Like SBros are basically VangVets. But theh add something to the army (ignoring passions) that makes them interesting. DC are (in theory) same way.

that doesn’t add anything to the game since FBDC have FNP, with better weapons

[phandaal]

 

Primaris have access to some strategems that OG Marines cannot use, so there is that.

that doesn’t seem like enough to justify a unique unit though

 

[TheNewman]

The biggest sales boom theyll have since Primaris will be when they do rescaled first born

Despite how far under the bridge that water is I still think GW made a mistake not using the Intercessor sculpts as just scaled up First Born and going from there.

 

It's all just computer files, switching weapons around wouldn't have been that hard:

Intercessors > here's your true-scale marines.

Outriders > here's your scaled up bikes.

Invaders > here's your scaled up attack bikes.

Stormspeeders > here's your scaled up Land Speeders.

Impulsors > here's your scaled up Rhino and variants. *

Repulsor > here's your re-imagined Land Raiders with a turret like a sensible tank. *

Gravis armor, Redemptors > here's your new Primaris line, including the Invictor's weapon options on a Redemptor variant...although the Plasma Annihilator and the super flamer should really trade places on those. And the Aggressors and Inceptors really have their weapons reversed. **

 

As long as they made it clear up front how extensive the range refresh was going to be I think they'd have annoyed a lot fewer customers that way in the long run. People who like the old stuff would have bought up a bunch of it while it was still out there, people who like the new stuff wouldn't have spent money on kits that were about to be outmoded, GW would probably have made more money overall.

 

* I don't even care about switching from treads to ground-effect hover tanks, I actually kind of like how those look. Just match the weapons up to the old kits.

 

** I might not even have gone this far on the Primaris line. I know I'm in the minority on liking the kit, but Cawl spending 10,000 years on his secret super-duper Special Marines Mark II and only delivering three or four new Centurion load outs would be kind of peak 40k.

Edited February 11, 2022 by TheNewman

[phandaal]

 

The biggest sales boom theyll have since Primaris will be when they do rescaled first born

Despite how far under the bridge that water is I still think GW made a mistake not using the Intercessor sculpts as just scaled up First Born and going from there.

 

snip

 

This is definitely what GW should have done. Primaris as models are fine and the upscaled proportions are great. Telling people "this replaces the thing you have liked for decades, oh and they are better than the thing you like in every way" was one of the stupidest things Games Workshop has done (and that includes the Chapterhouse deal).

 

The lore should have been: Cawl finds a way to rez G Man. G Man leads Cawl to a forgotten STC with the patterns for all this new Primaris gear. Bingo, donezo, and now you do not have lore that a kindergartner would come up with on the playground.