Stormsurge discussion

[clanfield]

In one of my swiftest and most devastating victories of 5th Edition, my first shot of the game was a Falcon's bright Lance destroying my friend's Space Wolf Land Raider with a single hit.

This is the Way.

 

i also had a nice shiney new land raider also space wolf get one shoted by a las cannon first turn by a evil chaos dude a few years back my answer ...more land raiders crazy but it worked :P

[jarms48]

Compared to the railgun I don't think the Stormsurge is that bad. At least you can get an invul save.

[Blindhamster]

Compared to the railgun I don't think the Stormsurge is that bad. At least you can get an invul save.

unless they use the strat that means you cant :D

[Panzer]

Which luckily is Sept specific. We'll see whether it's good enough to be the default pick or if another Sept is even stronger. :D

[Karhedron]

I wonder how much of this is to compensate for Tau's lack of Psykers. MWs are a bit if a leveller and most races can bring means of chipping a few MWs off a hard target via Smite. Necrons have C'tan powers and a few Technomancer abilities that fill the same niche but Tau historically don't have that. I wonder if things like the Railgun are intended to be their "leveller". The point at which is doesn't matter what your defenses are, here is something to just smash your way through.

[Panzer]

Well T'au used to have MWs in form of Seeker Missiles (not going to mention terrible Stratagems nobody ever used more than once in their life) but those got quickly changed to a normal profile. At that time it was definitely a good change since they were pretty underwhelming at just 1MW for a once per game missile that may or may not hit on a 4+, but I'm sure there's a way to make them deal MWs without feeling bad or broken. They just never really tried lol

[mel_danes]

What if 40k factions are like kids, the designers like parents? Parents have favorite kids, they tell the kids they don't, but they do.

Do you think the designers put more effort and brain power into factions they themselves like?

Do we know what armies they play or prefer, does the codex performance match up?

Just spit balling. It seems like there is serious divergence in power across these next faction updates.

[zero88]

Compared to the railgun I don't think the Stormsurge is that bad. At least you can get an invul save.

This. People forget the damage output of a max squad of eradicators with heavy rifles is wayyy higher than this. The ignores invuln mechanic is what bothers me as well

[Kain Mor]

 

Compared to the railgun I don't think the Stormsurge is that bad. At least you can get an invul save.

This. People forget the damage output of a max squad of eradicators with heavy rifles is wayyy higher than this. The ignores invuln mechanic is what bothers me as well

Comparing randomized D6 damage with flat 12 is a fools errand, for one. A squad of T5 3W models with a 3+ and no invuln is also significantly easier to kill than a model that is T8 20+ wounds with a 2+/4++

[zero88]

 

 

Compared to the railgun I don't think the Stormsurge is that bad. At least you can get an invul save.

This. People forget the damage output of a max squad of eradicators with heavy rifles is wayyy higher than this. The ignores invuln mechanic is what bothers me as well

Comparing randomized D6 damage with flat 12 is a fools errand, for one. A squad of T5 3W models with a 3+ and no invuln is also significantly easier to kill than a model that is T8 20+ wounds with a 2+/4++

At the same 24" range a squad of 6 heavy melta eradicators is a potential of 12D6+24 Damage for the same points cost. Transhuman eliminates T8, and there are plenty of ways to get them a shrug or invuln. My point is that crazy damage output hasn't been a new thing (whether you like it or not is a completely different matter) but invulns were always there as a counter. Edited January 16, 2022 by zero88

[depthcharge12]

 

Compared to the railgun I don't think the Stormsurge is that bad. At least you can get an invul save.

This. People forget the damage output of a max squad of eradicators with heavy rifles is wayyy higher than this. The ignores invuln mechanic is what bothers me as well

In a game that is more about scoring than shooting your opponent off the board, I’m still trying to understand what the big hullabaloo is all about? A hammerhead can kill, what, 3 terminators from MW collaterals? It’s not even going to phase a squad of 10 obsec dudes.

 

At best it will shoot an enemy solo shooty unit off the board…but you have to consider terrain, obstacles, and unit redundancy.

[Karhedron]

In a game that is more about scoring than shooting your opponent off the board, I’m still trying to understand what the big hullabaloo is all about? A hammerhead can kill, what, 3 terminators from MW collaterals? It’s not even going to phase a squad of 10 obsec dudes.

10 regular infantry would be under threat either from the massed burst cannon fire or simply from the submunitions round which could make a mess.

 

[H311fi5h]

 

In a game that is more about scoring than shooting your opponent off the board, I’m still trying to understand what the big hullabaloo is all about? A hammerhead can kill, what, 3 terminators from MW collaterals? It’s not even going to phase a squad of 10 obsec dudes.

10 regular infantry would be under threat either from the massed burst cannon fire or simply from the submunitions round which could make a mess.

 

 

 

10 infantry would suffer 5 mortal wounds on average. That's just one more wound than what the railgun would do anyway (same if 2 wound infantry) - not worth a CP.

The strategem could potentially become interesting at 11+ models. But pretty much only trash units come in 11+ size with few exceptions; ask yourself if you want to to spend a CP and forgo your railgun shot for killing 8 of something you could kill with pulse rifle fire.

I don't see this used very much.

 

 

 

Compared to the railgun I don't think the Stormsurge is that bad. At least you can get an invul save.

unless they use the strat that means you cant

 

 

You'd have to play Borkan though. From what we know this appears to be one of the weaker Septs. 4" range is nice but a free reroll for everything is the money you're looking for. I'd expect to see Farsight or Tau to be much more common. Souping subfactions is rumored to go away too.

 

I could be wrong, but I think good Tau lists will be primarily build around troops and core-battlesuit units with various buffs from commanders and ethereals on them, not scary single/double shot guns. 

[Karhedron]

I wonder if GW has consciously adopted a rock-paper-scissors mentality to recent releases. It strikes me that some of the new weapons look like they are designed to hard-counter specific units. We know that Drukhari are strong right now with cheap, spammable vehicles all sporting a nice 5++. The Railgun will one-shot Venoms and Raiders and will even one-shot Ravagers on a 3+.

 

Both Railgun and Stormsurge look like they will perfect against Imperial Knights. I wonder if rather than making every army balanced against every other army, GW are simply trying to make sure that hard-counters to strong units exist somewhere in the meta. This means that if you turn up to a tourney, even the strongest list risks running into its nemesis.

[Marshal Reinhard]

so get at drukhari they made a gun that makes a mockery of everything from "cheap, spammable vehicles sporting 5++" to Imperial Knights?

[The Yncarne]

I’m not sure GW have much of a plan other than rule of cool for whatever changes the meta. As a T’AU player it’ll be nice to use units that I haven’t in a while whatever they are.

[chapter master 454]

Balance doesn't mean the scales on every direction are perfectly level, it means the overall balance levels out across all of them. This can be disrupted by problematic units or combos however some armies should have issues against others. This creates the eco-system of the game as sometimes, the best way to balance the game isn't to nerf the top army but look at why the top army predator isn't around, sometimes nerfing something that isn't the top dog can lead to the top dog getting taken down.

 

However balance is hard to sort in the game when so many variables are around. However I would prefer we tend towards making things "too good" than balanced as often if things aren't good enough and need balance tweaks, it often sees no further play unless someone makes it sing. However when something is too good, ether we agree that it is fine as "too good" because of other reasons or when it gets nerfed we don't feel so bad because "yea, that's fair".

I know people find the "if everything is broken, everything is balanced" is a trite because it isn't used correctly but I find it at least means everyone gets to play to an extent, instead of one army getting left behind.

 

I find it odd. Tau are THE Shooting army. Known for having powerful ranged weapons, for being devastating at range. Suddenly they are devastating at range instead of just having a bunch of discount lascannons and people be having surprised pikachu faces at it. We still don't have a psychic phase or fight phase really, meanwhile thousand sons and grey knights get to play in all phases of the game to great effect. Chill. Yea, tau shooting hurts but once we're done shooting we pass turn because we can't melee. Heck, I even do my favourite joke: "Movement done...right...psychic phase. -pause-. Excellent, good psychic phase. Shooting phase". And it gets a smile!

[Panzer]

Honestly people are much less surprised or mad about it than it sometimes sounds. Most understand that T'au shooting needs to be scary. It's just some funny memes and initial shock reactions. If Marines or Orks had that kind of shooting people would be a lot more mad because they also have decent melee and psychic units on top of that.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Panzer

[Mandragola]

The Riptide’s ion accelerator is the gun I’m most interested in from the codex. That’s the closest thing to an anti-anything weapon Tau have. 8 shots doing 4 damage each is kind of hard to ignore. It has a higher potential damage output than even the Stormsurge, and not concentrated into two swingy shots.

 

The Bork’an strat is extremely strong and may be decisive in making them the sept to take, especially if you want to run the big suits. A Bork’an riptide can wipe out Custodes squads, and pretty much anything if wants.

 

Ultimately though, it looks like Tau are kind of spoiled for choice when it comes to big scary guns and septs. There are plenty of ways to shoot things dead. I don’t think a raider’s 5++ will save it against many of them.

[Karhedron]

I missed the Ion Accelerator's new stats. My son plays Tau, glad I helped him magnetise his Riptide when he built it.

[H311fi5h]

I've played three competition-style games with Tau so far and I've about zero interest in going for big guns. Even the hammerhead feels disappointing on the table.

I think the books strength lies in the small suits with core keyword allowing you to stack lots of offensive and defensive buffs. A large crisis unit for around 400-500 points can be a nearly unkillable deathstar murdering anything in range and is also very flexible. Don't see what I would want a Stormsurge for if that is the alternative.

All the panic about this gun (and same for the hammerhead) will have been a big nothing.

Not saying it is bad (very few things in the book actually are) but I just don't expect you will be seeing a lot of stormsurges on tables.

[Mandragola]

I think I agree that crisis suits look like the stand-out option from the book. You get about 2.5 suits per hammerhead, with ~8 guns instead of 3. The HH's guns are better but not that much better. And the suits can deep strike, have invulnerables and drone protection, and so on. I could potentially imagine bringing a whole lot of suits in a list and not very much else.

[depthcharge12]

I've played three competition-style games with Tau so far and I've about zero interest in going for big guns. Even the hammerhead feels disappointing on the table.

I think the books strength lies in the small suits with core keyword allowing you to stack lots of offensive and defensive buffs. A large crisis unit for around 400-500 points can be a nearly unkillable deathstar murdering anything in range and is also very flexible. Don't see what I would want a Stormsurge for if that is the alternative.

All the panic about this gun (and same for the hammerhead) will have been a big nothing.

Not saying it is bad (very few things in the book actually are) but I just don't expect you will be seeing a lot of stormsurges on tables.

Not to sound vindictive, but imagine my shock lol. This is what I’ve been saying since the rules dropped for the stormsurge and hammerhead - they are just paper tigers.

 

The current game revolves around mobility and positioning, and firepower is just piece of that component. I think the folks running 3 hammerheads (maybe 4 with longstrike?) in upcoming tournaments are going to be disappointed.

 

While it is only a single datapoint, tabletop tactics had a new codex Tau match vs white scars where the lone hammerhead on the field shot once, failed to wound, then blew up and took some friendly models with it.

[Triszin]

So I picked up a storm surge. :) I'll probably paint add builds it over the next year

[H311fi5h]

 

Not to sound vindictive, but imagine my shock lol. This is what I’ve been saying since the rules dropped for the stormsurge and hammerhead - they are just paper tigers.

 

The current game revolves around mobility and positioning, and firepower is just piece of that component. I think the folks running 3 hammerheads (maybe 4 with longstrike?) in upcoming tournaments are going to be disappointed.

 

While it is only a single datapoint, tabletop tactics had a new codex Tau match vs white scars where the lone hammerhead on the field shot once, failed to wound, then blew up and took some friendly models with it.

 

 

I've played a single Hammerhead in one game. It survived and got to shoot 5 times. Failed to hit or wound 3 out of 5 with the Railgun.

 

But the real reason why I think Hammerheads are a mistake is the mirror match. If you play a tournament and run into another Tau player, and you're running Hammerheads while he's running Broadsides and Crisis you're toast. The Railgun shots get tanked by drones, savior protocolled or negated by counterfire-defence. Then the Hammerheads get blown to pieces immediately after.

 

One Stormsurge could be decent in Borkan to get the most out of their strategem, sure. But CP are very valuable for Tau, there are just so many amazing strategems. You can't just blow 2 on the Stormsurge every turn. And for everything else in your army Tau and Farsight are probably the better Septs.

In the mirror it's also not great.

Edited February 3, 2022 by H311fi5h