SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[DukeLeto69]

Sorry Moonreaper666 I don’t want this to appear like a pile on but I do have to say I am glad ADB and Abnett are writing the last books of the SoT series and not you.

 

We all (I think) like a bit of head cannon but jeez!

[grailkeeper]

Three minor things I want. One must be from ADB but the others can be from anyone.

 

1. The Emperor to give the command that Land Raiders be reserved for marines,

 

2. Dorn to say "give me 100 space marines or failing that 1000 other troops",

 

3. For ADB to have Raguel the sufferer to appear- even if only in passing.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

Above all I am intrigued to find out which way they go with the "Horus lowers the shields to see his dad die", "Horus lowers the shields at the point of victory because he finally realises what he has done" etc - or who knows, he might not lower the shields at all!

In Misbegotten where Fo is introduced there's a line or two at the end that says Horus cried out of fear of what he has done to the spirit of the Imperium. I'd imagine he has a mental breakdown in siege 8 and lowers the shields himself. Even though it was written in 2018 the parts about Fo still hold true. It being written by Abnett doesn't hurt either.

Horus at this point should be able to summom the grandfather of all Warp-storm to prevent Guilliman to enter the Solar System.

Thats not what it says in Visions of Heresy/Collected Visions, the old lore bible.

Old Lore had Lorgar and Konrad Curze in the Siege with their Legions. Perturabo and his Legion stayed. No Aegis and no anti-Warp field so...

 

Old Lore never made sense. Emperor personally tortures and kills TRILLIONS of kids every year. He would kill Horus in a heartbeat.

 

Chaos makes people stronger. No ordinary human can beat Doombreed. Khârn slaughters hundreds of Marines on his own in just an hour without getting tired and go kill some more. Horus should be more powerful than the Emperor, that is why Fo's weapon and Olly's experience with Enuncia are critical in the duel

 

Sanginius LOST to Madai. If it weren't for the Sangiunator playing human shield the Primarch would have died on Davin.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Chaos also makes you weaker though. That’s kinda been the point from the very beginning. It’s not just a straight power-up that improves you in every way. Perturabo fighting Angron is a perfect example of this in action. Angron the Daemon Primarch gets defeated by not getting fought.

 

Also, the Emperor “personally” tortures and kills trillions every year? Is there any actual source on this, or just the usual hyperbole?

 

Also, not sure what this “grandfather of all Warp storms” would actually add to the story, since even if Guillimans fleet arrives it’ll still take days of STL travel to reach Earth, so there’s no need of a “but we must prevent them from striking NOW” mcguffin, not to mention we know that they do arrive.

Horus drops the shields in part as a ploy to finish things before Guilliman arrives. If he can just lock Guilliman out forever, there’s no need for that.

 

Edit: also, Sanguinius nearly lost to Madai because his whole arc for that book was this was one of his lowest moments, uncertain about what the future holds. The events of that book were what convinced him of the immutability of the predictions of his death at Horus’ hands, as opposed to the possibility of him falling to Chaos or dying elsewhere.

Sanguinius now unrelentingly believing that he will only die on the Vengeful Spirit against his brother has given him quite a boost in his fighting ability, manifesting it as truth even as he’s seemingly throwing himself into suicidal attacks.

 

We’ve already been shown Daemon Angron being “beaten” in close combat by Perturabo, who was never renowned for his talents at close combat, by playing smart and preventing Angrons strengths while hammering his weaknesses.

Sanguinius, almost universally recognised by Loyalist and Traitor Primarch alike as the most dangerous combatant of the entire brotherhood (even before his “I do not die here” “powerup”) will absolutely have as much chance if not more of beating Daemon Angron.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[cheywood]

When is the Emperor personally torturing trillions of kids? I must’ve missed that book. Edited March 5, 2022 by cheywood

[Moonreaper666]

Chaos also makes you weaker though. That’s kinda been the point from the very beginning. It’s not just a straight power-up that improves you in every way. Perturabo fighting Angron is a perfect example of this in action. Angron the Daemon Primarch gets defeated by not getting fought.

 

Also, the Emperor “personally” tortures and kills trillions every year? Is there any actual source on this, or just the usual hyperbole?

 

Also, not sure what this “grandfather of all Warp storms” would actually add to the story, since even if Guillimans fleet arrives it’ll still take days of STL travel to reach Earth, so there’s no need of a “but we must prevent them from striking NOW” mcguffin, not to mention we know that they do arrive.

Horus drops the shields in part as a ploy to finish things before Guilliman arrives. If he can just lock Guilliman out forever, there’s no need for that.

 

Edit: also, Sanguinius nearly lost to Madai because his whole arc for that book was this was one of his lowest moments, uncertain about what the future holds. The events of that book were what convinced him of the immutability of the predictions of his death at Horus’ hands, as opposed to the possibility of him falling to Chaos or dying elsewhere.

Sanguinius now unrelentingly believing that he will only die on the Vengeful Spirit against his brother has given him quite a boost in his fighting ability, manifesting it as truth even as he’s seemingly throwing himself into suicidal attacks.

 

We’ve already been shown Daemon Angron being “beaten” in close combat by Perturabo, who was never renowned for his talents at close combat, by playing smart and preventing Angrons strengths while hammering his weaknesses.

Sanguinius, almost universally recognised by Loyalist and Traitor Primarch alike as the most dangerous combatant of the entire brotherhood (even before his “I do not die here” “powerup”) will absolutely have as much chance if not more of beating Daemon Angron.

Wasn't Perturabo also buffed by Chaos when he fought Angron? Sanginius does not have the manpower and firepower Perty had

 

There is no way Sanginius can fight Angron without being heavily injured. Plus Sang is already very tired at this point.

 

It would be more tense if Guilliman was not or bever going to make it in time

 

The Gate is breached and the Traitors are inching closer and closer to the Throne. Almost all the Loyalist conscripts and civilians are dead while the Warp is increasing

 

Daemons are overwhelming Corswain's group and have shutdown/damage the Astronomican

 

Su-Kassen launches a suicide attack to disable the Void Shields

[Noserenda]

The bit that confuses me in the ranting is this weird obsession with Su-Kassen specifically dying, every time, even when its not very relevant.

And no Perturabo was not "buffed by chaos" thats kinda central to his arc at this point...

[Lord_Caerolion]

It’s less tense without the threat of Guilliman.

With Guilliman, the defenders are in a desperate last stand, struggling to hold out even a moment longer if it buys time for Guilliman to arrive. The Traitors are also desperate, needing victory as quickly as possible.

 

Without Guilliman, the Loyalists are just struggling to hold on with no real chance of victory, and the Traitors can just take their sweet time. There’s no impetus.

 

I find it hilarious that you accuse others of being “Imperial fanboys” for wanting the story to unfold similarly to how we’ve been told in the past, while you’re just blatantly wishlisting that Chaos gets to steamroll over everyone and be borderline invincible.

 

Edit: also, I don’t think anybody has said that Sanguinius should just body Angron without taking a scratch. Of course Sanguinius should get injured in the fight. Sanguinius is tired, as you say. Remember though that Angron is also still a Daemon Primarch, he is a Warp being and so needs to struggle to maintain a corporeal form.

Daemons may be able to manifest at this point in the Siege, but it’s still costly, especially as they get closer to the Emperor, like at the Eternity Gate. This is part of what the weaknesses of Chaos “ascension” entail. Sure, you’re a daemon now, but you’re also a daemon now.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[Moonreaper666]

It’s less tense without the threat of Guilliman.

With Guilliman, the defenders are in a desperate last stand, struggling to hold out even a moment longer if it buys time for Guilliman to arrive. The Traitors are also desperate, needing victory as quickly as possible.

 

Without Guilliman, the Loyalists are just struggling to hold on with no real chance of victory, and the Traitors can just take their sweet time. There’s no impetus.

 

I find it hilarious that you accuse others of being “Imperial fanboys” for wanting the story to unfold similarly to how we’ve been told in the past, while you’re just blatantly wishlisting that Chaos gets to steamroll over everyone and be borderline invincible.

Horus summons a Warp-storm which only his death could dissipate it

 

Malcador tells the Emperor that he can't sit on the Throne he must confront and kill Horus

 

Horus isn't stupid enough to disable the Void Shields. Daemons turn off Astronomicon, Warpstorm prevents Guilliman from entering, Traitors getting closer to the Throne

 

Su-Kassen pilots the Phalanx, the only ship that can go toe-to-toe with the Vengeful Spirit

[Bestkeptsecret]

My friend Moonreaper do you understand what falling to chaos entails?

It means the total loss of self control, all moral restraints, all decency and becoming no better than ravenous beasts. Chaos is not to be exalted rather it is to be shunned. Embracing chaos means the extinguishing of all traces of civilization and good order. Chaos leads to madness and then annihilation of the self.

 

Why would you want the people who fall to this dangerous and repulsive idea to be lauded as victors or be celebrated? Their loss is humanity’s and sanity’s win. Very simple.

[Moonreaper666]

My friend Moonreaper do you understand what falling to chaos entails?

It means the total loss of self control, all moral restraints, all decency and becoming no better than ravenous beasts. Chaos is not to be exalted rather it is to be shunned. Embracing chaos means the extinguishing of all traces of civilization and good order. Chaos leads to madness and then annihilation of the self.

 

Why would you want the people who fall to this dangerous and repulsive idea to be lauded as victors or be celebrated? Their loss is humanity’s and sanity’s win. Very simple.

Chaos is humanity as many BL authors have put it including Chris Wraight

 

Khârn and Doombreed are more human that the Autistic Custodes and Emperor will ever be and I'm autistic/adhd/aspergers

 

In a Universe in which GODS are 100% REAL, Reward violence and control fate, time and space it make senses they win!!!

 

It's Cthulu Mythology all over again. Real Life philosophy and logic-reasoning don't work in CM or Warhammer.

 

Khârn has wiped out countless Chapters and Regiments, Ork Waaaghs, Tyranid invasions and Necron Tomb Worlds Post-Heresy without dying once!

[Lord_Caerolion]

No, Khârn absolutely has not done that. Wiping out just one of those singlehandedly is an impossible feat, let alone the “countless” you always state.

 

Chaos is not just humanity, it’s humanity unrestrained. Khorne is human rage, but it’s not limited or controlled by anything else. When you turn to Chaos you don’t get to say “nah, that’s enough excess, Slaanesh, I’m good thanks”, that gets you turned into a Spawn at best.

Khârn is no longer “more human” because he sold his literal soul to Rage Incarnate. He is a pawn to Rage Incarnate. That’s why the followers of Chaos are called “slaves to darkness”, it’s not a quaint metaphor so that good little Imperials don’t listen to the Primordial Truth, it’s their literal state. They are slaves to their gods.

 

When you start to follow the path of Chaos, the Gods only allow you to keep continuing. The only other options are Spawndom or death.

 

Edit: “Horus isn’t stupid enough to turn off the void shields”? Dude, your headcanon is not actual canon. Yes, Horus turns off the shields, that’s how it’s been from the very beginning. I know you’ve got the headcanon of this Warpstorm stopping Guillimans arrival and preventing the urgency on the Traitors part, but that’s not how things are. Yes, in your headcanon Horus would be stupid to drop the shields, but we aren’t in your headcanon.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[Brother Tyler]

How much of the Horus Heresy fiction so far has substantively revised the old lore from the Collected Visions book(s)? From what I've seen, while we've seen that old lore refined and expanded upon, most of the more recent (i.e., Horus Rising and later) fiction has incorporated as much of the old stuff as possible. I know that there have been some changes, but few of those completely invalidated what came before.

 

That said, I caution against any wish-listing that clearly changes the old lore (unless such changes have been foreshadowed in the other fiction).

[Petitioner's City]

Alan Merritt was heavily involved in the process throughout, and Dan Abnett always made it sound like Merritt was a hard sell on some changes. ADB in his blog would express great respect for Merritt's knowledge too, and there is this fab quote from a while ago by Dan

 

No pressure at all! It was a very exciting experience and a very fun experience. There’s a guy called Alan Merritt, who is sort of in charge of the lore there at Games Workshop, and we have regular brainstorming writers’ summits. And he comes in with armfuls of books, ancient copies of stuff that’s no longer in print and explains to us all of the stuff that’s been written about a particular subject in the past and indeed, how they’ve contradicted each other over the years in copies of White Dwarf and everything. From that we devise our schemes and it’s not just a matter of – well, it is world building for a start because this isn’t really a world that’s been imagined in any complete way, and everybody’s got their own idea of it. And it’s not just a matter of regurgitating the same story because – it’s like Titanic, everyone knows what happens at the end. So we set out to find a way of telling these stories and at the same time revealing all sorts of things that people know, filling in the gaps. And it’s been gigantic fun, because either we’ve been able to reveal things that have been hidden there all along, or we’ve said ‘We’ve had this great idea, can we say that Horus was really doing this?’ And generally speaking they’ve said oh yes, let’s do that. And you find things out, I have to say you find things out. We discovered that the Horus Heresy – and this is probably heresy to tell you this – but the Horus Heresy originally started right in the very first version of the game. They’d made these lovely plastic models in the game and [Games Workshop] were a young, little company and they were doing so well, and they couldn’t afford to sculpt moulds to make ones for them to fight. The only thing they could do was to use the same moulds, but mould things out of a different colour plastic. I think it was red and blue, the same models of Space Marines and everything, but some were red and some were blue, and they had to come up with a reason for why they’d be fighting themselves, so somebody went ‘Oh, it’s a civil war!’ And somebody else went ‘Let’s call it the…oh I don’t know…Horus Heresy!’ So that obviously won’t be in the books.

 

 

https://www.scifinow.co.uk/interviews/interview-dan-abnett/2/

 

Alan also approved the big changes Dan did in Penitent (six reveals' worth/changes):

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[Noserenda]

Alan Merritt has long been a pretty divisive figure but he did "lay the keel" of the modern Heresy in Visions and obviously had huge influence whilst he was still at GW. That said he left a good few years ago now so the vast majority of the work at BL/FW has been done by others. I cant dig up an exact date with some lazy googling but Imperial Knights was one of several projects he directly blocked apparently, so before that release.

[Petitioner's City]

I hadn't realised Merritt had left so long ago, I thought it was more recently (due to penitent, but I guess abnett planned & sought permission in 2019, possibly during the editing and writing of Magos, or much earlier?, and then wrote it in early 2020?).

 

By the way have you read Zones of Control? It has an excellent chapter on Ansell, Kirby, Merritt, etc. I hadn't realised there were (quasi?)academic publications on GW.

[Taliesin]

This thread made me think the full retirement just happened recently since they now put a vacancy up.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/373363-gw-is-looking-for-a-new-wh40k-lore-overlord/

[DukeLeto69]

I hadn't realised Merritt had left so long ago, I thought it was more recently (due to penitent, but I guess abnett planned & sought permission in 2019, possibly during the editing and writing of Magos, or much earlier?, and then wrote it in early 2020?).

 

By the way have you read Zones of Control? It has an excellent chapter on Ansell, Kirby, Merritt, etc. I hadn't realised there were (quasi?)academic publications on GW.

I always had the impression that those discussions happened waaaaaay back when Abnett was planning out the whole Bequin trilogy (ie before actually writing Pariah). Pretty sure he must have needed to know where he was going before he starting writing the first book. That is why the “breadcrumbs” have been filtering out between then and now.

[caladancid]

Alan Merritt has long been a pretty divisive figure but he did "lay the keel" of the modern Heresy in Visions and obviously had huge influence whilst he was still at GW. That said he left a good few years ago now so the vast majority of the work at BL/FW has been done by others. I cant dig up an exact date with some lazy googling but Imperial Knights was one of several projects he directly blocked apparently, so before that release.

 

I really think this is an exaggeration in terms of his alleged divisiveness. He has not been gone since before Imperial Knights were out.

[Noserenda]

It may be he moved from head of IP a while back? There was certainly a lessening of influence in that area, ive spoken to a few and heard of others who really disliked him or his vision/attitude to the IP but thats pretty personal stuff, in my own fairly brief experience hes been perfectly fine, but then i wasnt trying to return Squats or something :P  Thats why i say divisive as someone perfectly reasonable can feel like an arse if he is saying no to your pet scheme! :D 

I think the 40k role is a subdivision of his old job as afaik he was in charge of all GW IP? 

Makes sense Dan charted out the Bequin trilogy a long while ago, i think it was commissioned even before his epilepsy came to light? 

Not read Zones of control, but it does look interesting! A surprising number of the old GW figures are getting interviewed online or in magazines recently it seems, always interested to see how things worked in the "wild west" days of gw!

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

NOTE: This post is primarily addressed to Moonreaper666.

To you I say...

 

ENOUGH!

 

While I appreciate your points as alternate history lore, that is what you are presenting here. That is not the subject at hand, and you are disrupting the discussion.

 

As Brother Tyler points out, the HH series has revised, refined, expanded and even retconned some of the original lore. However, the general storyline of the original lore has remained intact. Your interpretation is leaning towards turning and twisting the lore in a different direction. This is alternate history lore and therefore OFF TOPIC. If you wish to continue posting in this thread, I insist that you stick to the general orthodoxy. If you wish to continue on your current line of thought, you should start a new discussion thread, and you are most welcome to do that... Or you could do both. I'm quite sanguine with that as well. Whatever decision you make, do it now. If you have questions or concerns, please PM me. In all matters of the B&C, I am at your service.

 

To all other fraters here:

 

My apologies for not addressing this issue sooner and thank you for your restraint here in this thread. If you have any concerns or question regarding this or any other issue PM me and I will get back to you asap. In this, I am your humble servant

 

=][=

Edited March 6, 2022 by Brother Lunkhead

[Petitioner's City]

I do hope there are some Thousand Sons in this novel - maybe nothing as 'clear' as a Khayon cameo, but something which explains that there were more of the legion active than just Magnus, Ahriman and their confreres in the McNeil novellas, amidst which Khayon or others of his ilk could be situated. 

[grailkeeper]

I suspect ADB won't include Khayon. He has said its a big universe and people who are important in 40k aren't in 30k. 

I can see his logic, but disagree. I think he's trying to make it more realistic but a novel about a demigod fighting a demon will be inherently unrealistic. I think its good story telling to have nods towards characters people love even if they aren't too important right now. 

I think its the same reason we won't see Raguel unfortunately. 

[Ubiquitous1984]

I do hope there are some Thousand Sons in this novel - maybe nothing as 'clear' as a Khayon cameo, but something which explains that there were more of the legion active than just Magnus, Ahriman and their confreres in the McNeil novellas, amidst which Khayon or others of his ilk could be situated. 

I don’t think there is space at this stage of the siege to be visiting the Thousand Sons, much like the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords.  At this stage it feels very much like the focus will be on World Eaters, Sons of Horus and perhaps some Death Guard if Typhus is still up for the fight.

 

Which is a shame but with two books left, and so many major events still to occur, it feels like the authors will need to be very strict with who they choose to include to avoid the word count going out of control.   

[Noserenda]

I think it can depend, some characters fought in the Heresy, but really "bloomed" later and focusing on them is kinda pointless, but using their name for background Captains or similar is pretty solid.