SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Petitioner's City]

I did not mean a big thing - I just mean more of his world-building that encompasses the unseen actors and stories of the wider war (like the mention of Sarum-helmeted World Eaters, and Word Bearers, present in the webway war; or the many regiments mentioned by Abnett in Saturnine with the soldiers' new names).

 

It depends if Aaron is - like French or Abnett - as interested in the macro-situation of the battle as he is the micro. I've always found him to be much more comfortable with the latter, absolutely, than doing war historian commentary alongside his smaller stories. Even in that situation you could imagine an offhand comment about X or Y (Night Lords, Thousand Sons, a heavy weapons captain, an apothecary called Kargos, etc) that helps situate the agents of the wider war (the kind of 'making things we used to think simply more complicated and more realistic' approach he likes) without it being cheesy.

 

Another thing is how he constructs his story - it depends if Aaron retains the point-of-view character style of the other siege books, and who his focal characters might be - for the WE, if not Khârn, then perhaps someone familiar like Kargos or Skane or Lotara Sarrin, or perhaps someone new too?

Edited March 8, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[grailkeeper]

I did not mean a big thing - I just mean more of his world-building that encompasses the unseen actors and stories of the wider war (like the mention of Sarum-helmeted World Eaters, and Word Bearers, present in the webway war; or the many regiments mentioned by Abnett in Saturnine with the soldiers' new names).

 

It depends if Aaron is - like French or Abnett - as interested in the macro-situation of the battle as he is the micro. I've always found him to be much more comfortable with the latter, absolutely, than doing war historian commentary alongside his smaller stories. Even in that situation you could imagine an offhand comment about X or Y (Night Lords, Thousand Sons, a heavy weapons captain, an apothecary called Kargos, etc) that helps situate the agents of the wider war (the kind of 'making things we used to think simply more complicated and more realistic' approach he likes) without it being cheesy.

 

Another thing is how he constructs his story - it depends if Aaron retains the point-of-view character style of the other siege books, and who his focal characters might be - for the WE, if not Khârn, then perhaps someone familiar like Kargos or Skane or Lotara Sarrin, or perhaps someone new too?

He makes a deliberate point of always having at least one female character. Lotara Sarrin would be a good character to have a POV from. I wonder if he'll kill her off? It'd be a big pay off for a fan favourite. On the other hand there had to be at least a few non astarte/mechanicum traitors who escaped to the Eye and It would be cool to see what happened to them. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I suspect ADB won't include Khayon. He has said its a big universe and people who are important in 40k aren't in 30k.

 

I can see his logic, but disagree. I think he's trying to make it more realistic but a novel about a demigod fighting a demon will be inherently unrealistic. I think its good story telling to have nods towards characters people love even if they aren't too important right now.

 

I think its the same reason we won't see Raguel unfortunately.

Demigods fighting daemons is realistic within the setting though. The point is more that the Legions are meant to be tens of thousands strong. At the point of the Heresy, many had reached 100,000. However, looking at the novels from some authors, and the only important people are the exact same important people 10,000 years later. Things feel smaller when it’s only the same handful of people who do stuff.

 

Sure, have nods to characters we already know. ADB’s done that many times. Just don’t have it only ever be the people we already know. One, it reduces tension to have “well, every named Traitor here is still in 40k, so obviously nothing happens”. Two, it changes the Legions from being “tens of thousands of humanity’s finest” to “about 7 actually important people, plus several thousand unnamed mooks”.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Lord_Caerolion

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

I do hope there are some Thousand Sons in this novel - maybe nothing as 'clear' as a Khayon cameo, but something which explains that there were more of the legion active than just Magnus, Ahriman and their confreres in the McNeil novellas, amidst which Khayon or others of his ilk could be situated.

I don’t think there is space at this stage of the siege to be visiting the Thousand Sons, much like the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords. At this stage it feels very much like the focus will be on World Eaters, Sons of Horus and perhaps some Death Guard if Typhus is still up for the fight.

 

Which is a shame but with two books left, and so many major events still to occur, it feels like the authors will need to be very strict with who they choose to include to avoid the word count going out of control.

Will there be more Novellas about the Siege?

[Petitioner's City]

 

 

I do hope there are some Thousand Sons in this novel - maybe nothing as 'clear' as a Khayon cameo, but something which explains that there were more of the legion active than just Magnus, Ahriman and their confreres in the McNeil novellas, amidst which Khayon or others of his ilk could be situated.

I don’t think there is space at this stage of the siege to be visiting the Thousand Sons, much like the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords. At this stage it feels very much like the focus will be on World Eaters, Sons of Horus and perhaps some Death Guard if Typhus is still up for the fight.

 

Which is a shame but with two books left, and so many major events still to occur, it feels like the authors will need to be very strict with who they choose to include to avoid the word count going out of control.

Will there be more Novellas about the Siege?

 

 

So far (other than the expected remaining primarch novellas) nothing can be predicted, nor has it been suggested - but I wonder (shock! horror!) if the writing and editing team would actually like to move on and not write about any more Heresy-related things. Like maybe they (and the setting) will need a break.

 

We will be getting more from FW/SG for a while, now, so it could be that pushes them to commission more heresy stories, irrespective of actual editorial/writer desires. And Sigismund - coming out of no where - does show there are yet more stories in the team, too.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Petitioner's City

[DukeLeto69]

This whole “characters still active in 40k” thing is indeed a balancing act. There needs to be plenty because WE KNOW they were there back then during the HH but it also reduces the dramatic tension because we know they survive (usual challenge facing any “prequel” type story).

 

Additionally, as others have said, it makes the universe smaller.

 

That was why characters like Loken were important. We needed key, important characters in 30k who could and did die (well Loken erm sort of - still think he should have remained dead).

 

IMHO we needed more Loken type lead/pov characters with the big players as more of a supporting cast.

[Felix Antipodes]

It is certainly a balancing act for the writers.  There are certain characters who were important within their legions and the Imperium in general (there would be propaganda units playing up the victories of the primarchs and their senior legionnaires) during the Great Crusade era.  Some will have remained in the public consciousness over the millennia as the devil and/or his disciples (Horus, Abaddon, etc).  Others will have faded into myth or obscurity.

 

A major player in the current ranks of the traitor legions may have been Brother Nobody, freshly raised to their legion just before the strike on Terra and would not warrant a mention in the novels.  He has 10,000 years to rise to the to top.  Hell, we have almost no idea just who is running the heretic legions nowadays, so it already feels a bit of a small universe nowadays.

[Moonreaper666]

It is certainly a balancing act for the writers. There are certain characters who were important within their legions and the Imperium in general (there would be propaganda units playing up the victories of the primarchs and their senior legionnaires) during the Great Crusade era. Some will have remained in the public consciousness over the millennia as the devil and/or his disciples (Horus, Abaddon, etc). Others will have faded into myth or obscurity.

 

A major player in the current ranks of the traitor legions may have been Brother Nobody, freshly raised to their legion just before the strike on Terra and would not warrant a mention in the novels. He has 10,000 years to rise to the to top. Hell, we have almost no idea just who is running the heretic legions nowadays, so it already feels a bit of a small universe nowadays.

There should be more Novellas which shows more 40k characters like Telemachon, Ukris and Khayon. These Novellas have them fight and slaughter Loyalists.

 

Terra had Trillions of people at the Siege, not counting the Billions that lived in Jupiter or Saturn (most of which were killed in Solar War)

 

There is no way more than a few million of Terra's pre-Siege inhabitants survive the Siege. Orbital bombardment, Daemons, Warp afflications, Conscription by both sides, etc should have wiped out the vast majority of the civilian population

[Scribe]

 

It is certainly a balancing act for the writers. There are certain characters who were important within their legions and the Imperium in general (there would be propaganda units playing up the victories of the primarchs and their senior legionnaires) during the Great Crusade era. Some will have remained in the public consciousness over the millennia as the devil and/or his disciples (Horus, Abaddon, etc). Others will have faded into myth or obscurity.

 

A major player in the current ranks of the traitor legions may have been Brother Nobody, freshly raised to their legion just before the strike on Terra and would not warrant a mention in the novels. He has 10,000 years to rise to the to top. Hell, we have almost no idea just who is running the heretic legions nowadays, so it already feels a bit of a small universe nowadays.

There should be more Novellas which shows more 40k characters like Telemachon, Ukris and Khayon. These Novellas have them fight and slaughter Loyalists.

 

Terra had Trillions of people at the Siege, not counting the Billions that lived in Jupiter or Saturn (most of which were killed in Solar War)

 

There is no way more than a few million of Terra's pre-Siege inhabitants survive the Siege. Orbital bombardment, Daemons, Warp afflications, Conscription by both sides, etc should have wiped out the vast majority of the civilian population

 

 

By rights, the universe should be depopulated by the time of the 'current' metaplot.

 

Doesnt make much of a story though, other than asking Khorne to turn the lights out at the end.

[Sothalor]

In terms of people who will go on to become significant figures further down the timeline, I'm not a fan of using the Siege to showcase them.

 

The current plot is already a bloated, convoluted trainwreck spectacle. Let's be honest, there's no way every single plot thread of the Heresy is getting wrapped up and tied off in the space they have remaining, much less in satisfying ways for all of them. 

 

There are enough established Heresy characters with arcs and threads to be addressed.

 

 

I wouldn't mind names and references sprinkled throughout, but at this point it's time for the key players to take center stage and shine.

[Moonreaper666]

In terms of people who will go on to become significant figures further down the timeline, I'm not a fan of using the Siege to showcase them.

 

The current plot is already a bloated, convoluted trainwreck spectacle. Let's be honest, there's no way every single plot thread of the Heresy is getting wrapped up and tied off in the space they have remaining, much less in satisfying ways for all of them.

 

There are enough established Heresy characters with arcs and threads to be addressed.

 

 

I wouldn't mind names and references sprinkled throughout, but at this point it's time for the key players to take center stage and shine.

What about a Siege Anthology with each Short Story focusing on one Traitor character? One SS features Ahriman killing a Blood Angel Librarian while another focuses on Bile, etc

 

Which Named Daemons participated in the Siege? New Lore added a lot more to the Siege

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

In terms of people who will go on to become significant figures further down the timeline, I'm not a fan of using the Siege to showcase them.

 

*snip*

 

It's a small detail but I love how in Black Legion, Abaddon's main rival for warmaster Thagus Daravek was noted to have just  been a regular sergeant/line captain (not 100% which its been a little while since I've read the book) during the heresy/siege and wasn't some bigshot that everyone knew

 

[Sothalor]

 

 

It's a small detail but I love how in Black Legion, Abaddon's main rival for warmaster Thagus Daravek was noted to have just  been a regular sergeant/line captain (not 100% which its been a little while since I've read the book) during the heresy/siege and wasn't some bigshot that everyone knew

 

 

 

I like that as well, in terms of a specific effect it has on worldbuilding the overall setting.

 

Stuff like that builds the idea that the Heresy and its aftermath really was this gigantic, tumultuous event that upended everything. It was a cataclysm, a crucible through which nothing came out the other side unchanged.

 

 

I think having all the key named characters down the timeline already holding high-ranking, important positions before and during the Heresy/Siege can detract from that. There should be room for hitherto unknown, no-name individuals to rise to the occasion or to seize opportunities in the fires and the aftermath. There should be room for hitherto lauded names and champions to fall apart, to fail in the face of adversity, or to die tragically or ignominiously.

 

I'm not saying it has to happen that way. Stories have centered around the trials, triumphs, and failures of archetypal heroes since humans have started telling stories, and with reason. 

 

But any study of human history and military conflicts also shows that the trial by fire reveals some to be capable, some to be incompetent, and some to just be "the right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world."

[SkimaskMohawk]

There should be more Novellas which shows more 40k characters like Telemachon, Urkis, and Khayon. These Novellas have them fight and be slaughtered by Loyalists.

 

We know that falkus dies in the siege, so the rest are up for grabs. There's no way that all these mid-high ranking officers stayed in the back lines and survive the Siege.

[Moonreaper666]

I always thought each Traitor Legion has at least over 10k HH vets still alive by the time of the Great Rift excluding the TS

[Jareddm]

I can't be the only one getting PTSD flashbacks to the era of "Horus Heresy Limited Edition novella bloat." More novellas was the absolute last thing people used to want. How the tables have turned.

[nagashnee]

I can't be the only one getting PTSD flashbacks to the era of "Horus Heresy Limited Edition novella bloat." More novellas was the absolute last thing people used to want. How the tables have turned.

2 things here.

1) People never had a problem with novellas, they had issues with the number of novellas and novellas covering key plot points. Doubly so when they were limited.

2) Its the siege of terra, people want a good view at...'checks notes' the siege of terra, if the main books dont fulfil that quota then we need something that does, one could say THIS is the kind of thing novellas should have always been used to cover.   Let the books focus on the characters and key moments and then use novellas and short stories to enhance and enlarge our perspective of these key events but with a view on the wider conflict. 

 

 

Its about moderation and appropriate use, nothing else really. 

 

 

ps: or be a fantastic book that does both, like Know no Fear. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by nagashnee

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

I can't be the only one getting PTSD flashbacks to the era of "Horus Heresy Limited Edition novella bloat." More novellas was the absolute last thing people used to want. How the tables have turned.

2 things here.

1) People never had a problem with novellas, they had issues with the number of novellas and novellas covering key plot points. Doubly so when they were limited.

2) Its the siege of terra, people want a good view at...'checks notes' the siege of terra, if the main books dont fulfil that quota then we need something that does, one could say THIS is the kind of thing novellas should have always been used to cover. Let the books focus on the characters and key moments and then use novellas and short stories to enhance and enlarge our perspective of these key events but with a view on the wider conflict.

 

 

Its about moderation and appropriate use, nothing else really.

 

 

ps: or be a fantastic book that does both, like Know no Fear.

Which plot points should be covered in this and the final Siege books? Which plot points would probably be covered instead?

 

Which plot points should be done in Novellas or Short Stories/Anthologies?

 

I always thought the World Eaters, Death Guard and EC had at least 30k Marines each survive the Siege and Scouring. At least 10k from each Legion alive by the time of the Great Rift

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

 

 

It's a small detail but I love how in Black Legion, Abaddon's main rival for warmaster Thagus Daravek was noted to have just been a regular sergeant/line captain (not 100% which its been a little while since I've read the book) during the heresy/siege and wasn't some bigshot that everyone knew

 

I like that as well, in terms of a specific effect it has on worldbuilding the overall setting.

 

Stuff like that builds the idea that the Heresy and its aftermath really was this gigantic, tumultuous event that upended everything. It was a cataclysm, a crucible through which nothing came out the other side unchanged.

 

 

I think having all the key named characters down the timeline already holding high-ranking, important positions before and during the Heresy/Siege can detract from that. There should be room for hitherto unknown, no-name individuals to rise to the occasion or to seize opportunities in the fires and the aftermath. There should be room for hitherto lauded names and champions to fall apart, to fail in the face of adversity, or to die tragically or ignominiously.

 

I'm not saying it has to happen that way. Stories have centered around the trials, triumphs, and failures of archetypal heroes since humans have started telling stories, and with reason.

 

But any study of human history and military conflicts also shows that the trial by fire reveals some to be capable, some to be incompetent, and some to just be "the right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world."

Totally this and other similar comments.

 

I am torn. Part of me would like an almost cursory mention of someone like Thagus Daravek but is that fan service?

 

Wouldn’t want him as a character but more a red shirt who takes an order or passes on an order or some such then never to be seen again in a SoT/HH book.

 

It literally has to be throwaway/almost meaningless or not included at all (for me).

 

Edit typos!

Edited March 10, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[Karhedron]

1) People never had a problem with novellas, they had issues with the number of novellas and novellas covering key plot points. Doubly so when they were limited.

I completely agree. Aurelian is a good example of a book that should not have been limited. Thankfully it got a wider release eventually but this was a "deep dive" into Lorgar's character arc and should have been widely available at the get-go.

 

Fury of Magnus is another plot line I am annoyed to see consigned to a Novella. This is the key conclusion of the Thousand Sons plot arc and shoule be part of the main thread. Imagine if Sanguinius holding the Eternity Gate got sidelined into a Novella. At Least FOM is not limited edition.

[Felix Antipodes]

From another perspective will they start to highlight some of the lesser known Imperials that will eventually become the first Chapter Masters, or will they wait until the rumoured Scouring series?

 

Personally, I hope they just concentrate on the Heresy lore and end it with the Emperor being placed on the golden throne.  For me that’s the real end of the Heresy era.

[Karhedron]

How many key stories are there in the Scouring? The Iron Cage and the Fall of Caliban spring to mind but not a huge amount else.

[darkhorse0607]

I could see a book covering the implementation of the Codex Astartes and all the drama that went with that

[Moonreaper666]

What are the chances a Daemon Behemoth will appear in the last two novels?

 

A Daemon the size of a freaking Titan

[Sothalor]

They already have.