Betrayer. Thoughts, queries, equestions. Spoilers, duh.

[Legatus]

That is like saying Jason Voorhees has to be made into a more intriguing character by giving him more dialogue or an internal monologue. The World Eaters are an entire army of frenzied Jason Voorheeses. They are there to be an adversary, not to ponder the tragic points of betrayal and opposition to their creator.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually Jason Voorhees did have an intriguing story. He's the prime example of why you should be careful about picking on little momma boys because one day they can drown, return from the dead and fulflill their mommy's wishes of punishing all the bad teenagers who are currently posing in actions that little children need not know about.

 

Which is a great deal more than

 

"Giants killing everything that moves."

[Zincite]

One of the main things the Heresy series does is show us how the legions got to where they are now. It allows you to understand how they got there and why they made the choices they did. Seeing the World Eaters as people in 30K makes them all the more tragic in 40K when they are nothing but insane killers.

 

Besides, I'd dispute that any of the World Eaters in Betrayer are philosophers, save Khârn. And Khârn's special.

[Visitor13]

Legatus, do you want to say the WE were meant to be a bunch of Jasons from the very beginning? As in, meant by the Emperor?

[Legatus]

 

Actually Jason Voorhees did have an intriguing story. He's the prime example of why you should be careful about picking on little momma boys because one day they can drown, return from the dead and fulflill their mommy's wishes of punishing all the bad teenagers who are currently posing in actions that little children need not know about.

 

Which is a great deal more than

 

"Giants killing everything that moves."

 

Uh, the World Eaters did have an origin story, too.

 

 

 

Legatus, do you want to say the WE were meant to be a bunch of Jasons from the very beginning? As in, meant by the Emperor?

 

I am saying that are the World Eaters we know and love, that were created for the Warhammer 40K universe. And they have not been part of the Horus Heresy series.

[Visitor13]

 

 

 

I am saying that are the World Eaters we know and love, that were created for the Warhammer 40K universe. And they have not been part of the Horus Heresy series.

 

You could have fooled me, what with all the thoughtless running around with chainweapons and the occasional killing of teammates for the lulz.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Actually Jason Voorhees did have an intriguing story. He's the prime example of why you should be careful about picking on little momma boys because one day they can drown, return from the dead and fulflill their mommy's wishes of punishing all the bad teenagers who are currently posing in actions that little children need not know about.

 

Which is a great deal more than

 

"Giants killing everything that moves."

Uh, the World Eaters did have an origin story, too.

 

Yep. It's called the Horus Heresy.

 

Which is coincidentally what we're reading.

 

So three cheers for A D-B for writing a fantastic origin story!

 

Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!

[daveNYC]

That is like saying Jason Voorhees has to be made into a more intriguing character by giving him more dialogue or an internal monologue. The World Eaters are an entire army of frenzied Jason Voorheeses. They are there to be an adversary, not to ponder the tragic points of betrayal and opposition to their creator.

 

Actually, it's saying that Jason Voorhees sucks as a character.  If you really don't mind having an entire legion be reduced to the status of an antagonist in an 80s teen slasher flick, could we at least aim for Freddy Kruger?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

That is like saying Jason Voorhees has to be made into a more intriguing character by giving him more dialogue or an internal monologue. The World Eaters are an entire army of frenzied Jason Voorheeses. They are there to be an adversary, not to ponder the tragic points of betrayal and opposition to their creator.

Actually, it's saying that Jason Voorhees sucks as a character. If you really don't mind having an entire legion be reduced to the status of an antagonist in an 80s teen slasher flick, could we at least aim for Freddy Kruger?

He's for the Night Lords.

 

Mentally unstable. Looks scary. Lives on the fear factor. And die about as well as cockroaches.

[Wade Garrett]

On the one hand, I kind of get what Legatus is saying.

 

For instance, the great white shark in Jaws was a big shark that liked to eat people. That's all it needed to be, adding a backstory where it was a mommy shark that wanted revenge because Quint caught and cooked its babies would have been silly.

 

On the other hand, for that kind of character in 40k we have the Tyranids and Daemons. World Eaters in 40k must capable of at least some forethought and restraint, or else, for example, when Devourer of Stars dropped out of over Armegeddon it would have contained nothing but daemon Angron and a giant pile of bloody skulls.

 

And the Death Star is a bad example of a one of a kind superweapon. In the original trilogy the Empire built two of them, four if you count the EU, and five if you count the one built by Durga the Hutt.

[Kol Saresk]

On the one hand, I kind of get what Legatus is saying.

 

For instance, the great white shark in Jaws was a big shark that liked to eat people. That's all it needed to be, adding a backstory where it was a mommy shark that wanted revenge because Quint caught and cooked its babies would have been silly.

 

On the other hand, for that kind of character in 40k we have the Tyranids and Daemons. World Eaters in 40k must capable of at least some forethought and restraint, or else, for example, when Devourer of Stars dropped out of over Armegeddon it would have contained nothing but daemon Angron and a giant pile of bloody skulls.

 

And the Death Star is a bad example of a one of a kind superweapon. In the original trilogy the Empire built two of them, four if you count the EU, and five if you count the one built by Durga the Hutt.

Not to mention the Eye of Palpatine, the Eclipse, the Suncrusher, the Conqueror... The list of superweapons in Star Wars EU is longer than the runtime for Doctor Who.

[Carach]

always thought argel tal was one of the most likeable and relatable traitors in the series.

 

in fact adb did so good with him that he made a traitor into one of my fav characters. And i generally dislike them. 

[Conn Eremon]

Lorgar had the second largest Legion standing behind him.

 

The Lion had an entire battle-barge.

 

Curze just had bad dental hygiene.

Great. Now my mind is combining the images of Konrad Curze and George Washington.

 

I'm not saying I'm hating it.

[Wade Garrett]

"Father, I cannot tell a lie. It was I who hung the secessionists from the tops of the hive spires by their own entrails."

[Conn Eremon]

The small fighter plunges through the icy tail of a comet. Clinging to the hull, shielding his eye lens from the chips of ice whipping past, Sevatar's gaze is fixated on the figure ahead. Boots magnetically sealed to the hull, Curze stood upon the fighter's nose. He leaned forward into the storm, as if the eyes of a demi-god could pierce impossible distances to their destination, his heavy, powdery-white hair billowing out in the void like a lion's mane.

[Vazzy]

The small fighter plunges through the icy tail of a comet. Clinging to the hull, shielding his eye lens from the chips of ice whipping past, Sevatar's gaze is fixated on the figure ahead. Boots magnetically sealed to the hull, Curze stood upon the fighter's nose. He leaned forward into the storm, as if the eyes of a demi-god could pierce impossible distances to their destination, his heavy, powdery-white hair billowing out in the void like a lion's mane.

What has been seen cannot be unseen...Damn you Cormac

[Haakon Ironheart]

My favorite moment.... Argel Tal : " Did it work?" Khârn: " No, it did not"....talking about the WE trying to connect with their Primarch through use of the "nails"... Tragic... Khârn has become my favorite character after Loken...

[Jareddm]

While I have nothing backing this, I believe that Angron's gladiator brothers were corrupted by chaos.  That the Emperor could see this and knew that there was no debating it.  They had to die.  At least I think it makes for a reasonable explanation.

[Kais Klip]

While I have nothing backing this, I believe that Angron's gladiator brothers were corrupted by chaos. That the Emperor could see this and knew that there was no debating it. They had to die. At least I think it makes for a reasonable explanation.

Not at all, and I think someone mentioned this earlier. What the emperor did was the politically prudent move; given what we know of Nuceria during the arrival of Angron & Lorgar, the Emperor had a politically stable, tithe compliant world. He isn't PETA or a human rights activist, what he did was understandable from every point save Angron's, who I would have assumed was a big boy and would have gotten over it.

 

You can kick me up the a*se if I misremember and 1) Nuceria wasn't compliant or 2) Corax wasn't done with his rebellion by the time the Emperor came along.

 

While I have nothing backing this, I believe that Angron's gladiator brothers were corrupted by chaos. That the Emperor could see this and knew that there was no debating it. They had to die. At least I think it makes for a reasonable explanation.

Not at all, and I think someone mentioned this earlier. What the emperor did was the politically prudent move; given what we know of Nuceria during the arrival of Angron & Lorgar, the Emperor had a politically stable, tithe compliant world. He isn't PETA or a human rights activist, what he did was understandable from every point save Angron's, who I would have assumed was a big boy and would have gotten over it.

 

You can kick me up the a*se if I misremember and 1) Nuceria wasn't compliant or 2) Corax wasn't done with his rebellion by the time the Emperor came along.

[godking]

best part of the book for me was after The world eaters led by Khârn Crash into the wall of shielded Ultras.....they take their beating lose men like the WE always do....then right before the nails truly kick in Khârn snarls ....."Our Turn"...... ing AWESOME

That scene realistically was bull:cuss i dont care how angry you get its impossible to break a shieldwall on anger alone.

[Kol Saresk]

best part of the book for me was after The world eaters led by Khârn Crash into the wall of shielded Ultras.....they take their beating lose men like the WE always do....then right before the nails truly kick in Khârn snarls ....."Our Turn"...... ing AWESOME

That scene realistically was bull:cuss i dont care how angry you get its impossible to break a shieldwall on anger alone.

Because shieldwalls have never been broken by charging people right?

Besides, who cares, they're Astartes! You try holding back a small walking tank running as fast as a motorcycle on the highway!

Physics man, physics!

[Wade Garrett]

I agree with Kol. Look at the Battle of Pydna, where Roman legions under Aemilius Paullus broke the Macedonian phalanxes (the shieldwalliest shieldwalls to ever form a wall of shields) by...throwing themselves at it over and over.

[helterskelter]

I just looked it up and the interpretation I got was the Romans drew the phalanx onto rough ground which broke up the cohesion and allowed the Romans to exploit the gaps/use better equipment to their advantage. Doesn't seem so world eatery.

[Kol Saresk]

Kind of yes and no in terms of analogous.

 

The Macedonian shieldwall could not be broken. Then again, that shieldwall had spears and pikes which kept the Romans from reaching the shields. The Ultramarines didn't.

 

When the Romans made a gap and then forced their superior numbers into it, their more cc-orientated weaponry proved superior to the Phalangites lighter armor and short sword, which was meant as a last resort in case someone got past the shields and spears. The World Eaters had "superior numbers" in the specific instance of the courtyard as those several hundred Evocatii were all that was left on Armatura as their numbers had been wittlled down by the fact that they tried to hold multiple garrisons against a single horde that advanced from one garrison to the next. And then when the World Eaters reached the shields, their chain-axes(which are supposed to be the more brutal of close-combat weaponry) helped open gaps into the shieldwall which were then filled with bolt shells(reminder: these are armor-piercing, high-explosive rockets) and World Eaters, further breaking it up and destroying the cohesion the Evocatii normally would have had. World Eaters excelled at breaching defenses through close combat. That battlefield fit exactly into their forte.

[helterskelter]

I can see the comparison its just the Roman use of tactic prior to the breaking of the wall as opposed to I'm going to hit you til you break of the WE. I think I'm just nitpicking now :p