SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Helias_Tancred]

On 9/16/2022 at 3:25 PM, ADarke said:

Finished it yesterday. It's a good book, but honestly needed some serious editing. And some of the prose was bad, not up to ADB's usual writing quality. But overall good. 

After reading it I really enjoyed it, but I also felt the same way you did. It was not ADB's best work by far.

 

[Fedor]

I didn't particularly like a lot of the choices with Angron, Vulkan or Magnus in this book, but overall i'd actually rate it as return to form after a slump. I didn't have the interest in the character to justify picking up Ragnar, but Black Legion was a mess with some great scenes, and SotE just ended up being quite boring, despite a cool concept. This was closer to the quality of First Heretic, Betrayer, Helsreach and MoM. The prose was arguably better than ever, though that can perhaps be attributed to the lengthier time in gestation; not many BL works are allowed such a time to polish.

[System Sound]

Heres a drinking game for ya'll. Drink every time Volkite is mentioned.

Also

Spoiler

Hover rhinos? Did ADB mean those Custodian tanks?

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

Spoiler

Pretty sure he meant rhino.

The caladius and all that are basically new inventions for the custodes; the old collected visions art had hover stuff, and was referenced quite a bit in Master of Mankind.

 

[Guiltysparc]

This one made me really love Sanguineous. 

I also really enjoyed the scenes with Kargast and Amit, and Shiban's 2 sentence cameo has me punching the air in joy, so great.  I also really, really liked what he did with Lotara.

[Typhonian]

Finished it today. A little disappointed, maybe because ADB's previous works have set such a high bar. Kargos' fights were grisly. The Lotara twist was interesting.

 

Not sure what to make of some of the Magnus scenes, does that mean that Fury of Magnus is now just an illusion or vision that Magnus had? Also, I remember Sanguinius using his last ounce of strength breaking Ka'Bandha's back over his knee, here he just thrusts his swords between Ka'Bandha's wings.  Right after defeating Ka'Banda, the exhausted (?) Sanguinius proceeds to destroy Daemon Angron. For such a legendary fight it felt rushed.

Also, since Sanguinius ripped out Angron's Nails (and eyes and brain) does that make any difference for Angron? I assume Chaos gods can just reconstitute a being as they desire so they could recreate the Nails but how different would a Daemon Angron be with or without the Nails?

[/spoiler]

After this one, I am wondering what Abnett will write in the last 2 books. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Typhonian
messed up spoiler tag

[DarkChaplain]

Fury of Magnus should still stand. That's why Malcador and Vulkan are expecting him to make contact again. He was banished from the throneroom in Fury, as he submitted to Tzeentch and turned fully daemonic, and thus was expelled by the Aegis. Now he's trying to get back in there through the backdoor, which Vulkan was supposed to secure in the first place.

[Krelious]

I have to say after reading EoE and then following it up with Spear of the Emperor I feel like ADB just did dirty things to me and I need a cigarette.

I feel if I had two criticisms of the book is that on a meta level it definitely felt like ADB was hamstrung by Abnett who called dibs on all the good stuff for his final two books and so we got was a lot of narrative foot dragging like oh the traitors have gotten to the gate Kabandha and Angron got stomped. I'm not going to complain as ADB did an amazing job writing as usual proving him to be an S tier writer but going back to my earlier point I think the ending of the book suffers a bit because its basically a sprint where Sanguinious fights Kabandha and then Angron one after the other and it feels tedious and forced not giving the reader any time to digest what happens narratively and I had a hard time in my mind picturing what the final battle looked like. (Were the traitors scaling the walls like it was helms deep?)

I have to say the book did a great job of feeling rather bleak like the traitors were eventually going to win no matter what until Angron dies and the world eaters turn on everyone. I think on a meta level it showed the strength and weakness of the Chaos forces just acting as a horde rather than a unified force, deadly because they had unrelenting numbers to crush the defenders.

I think on a side note the book reminded me a bit of a war memoir of Leon Degrelle called the Eastern Front in terms of how bitter the fighting was and the absolute despair the soldiers felt fighting a losing battle against what they believed to be true evil. That the Axis forces had truly elite soldiers being ground down by an unrelenting tide of an unskilled but better supplied and more numerous army. I can tell you that book was one of the hardest reads anyone would ever come across and kind of put things into perspective that Warhammer 40k paints a bleak picture but real life is much much worse. I know at the very least ADB contacts vets to get inspiration/technical advice on how to write war novels so in part that's why I mention this.

 

I felt a bit odd after completing EoE as it didn't sit entirely right with me but after a couple of weeks to digest it I think it was extremely good I just thought the ending could have been executed a little better as I really felt after finishing this book it was just 540 pages of how do we get Sanguinious, Angron, Zephon, Amit, Land and all the rest from point A to point B.

All the other stuff was very nice flavouring, spices and whipped cream to fluff up the book but it can essentially be boiled down to Imperials engage in fighting retreat to gate, Vulkan walks to Magnus in funky town talks with him then kills him, Sanguinious has 2 back to back fights and closes the door. I would also say the book should have ended with the fight between Amit and Kargos not like 100 pages before hand or whatever it was as that felt personal and meaningful and instead we get a 1 sided bout all around which I would say surprisingly that ADB writes interesting character moments and development but he seems to fail in delivering good action or meaningful fights. How about Kargos and Amit are fighting at the same time Sanguineous is fighting Angron, Amit wins and then picks up Land's Doat pistol and shoots Angron in the head giving Sanguinious the opportunity to cut or rip his head off.

I still enjoyed the book and highly recommend it, I just wish it was a little bit better or more satisfying. Ultimately it leaves me with the feeling that ADB should be writing the ending and I feel mortified that its left to Abnett which in my unpopular opinion is not the best option as I did not enjoy Saturnine very much and I think he is mediocre as a writer. Really what i think it comes down to is the siege of Terra novels feel kind of hamstrung because being a 9 book series in the main arc they feel massively dragged out and padded with unnecessary bits that the good stuff just feels like a chore and what ADB did in his genius was make the chore parts/filler feel really really good by linking the story to his earlier works while tying off loose ends. 

Here's hoping 8 and 8 part 2 are good books.

[DarKnight]

What was the legend Amit was said to have taken his name from?

[Loquille]

9 hours ago, DarKnight said:

What was the legend Amit was said to have taken his name from?

I don't think it's mentioned in the novel beyond 

"Nassir Amit - a character name from an ancient play set in the Old Himalazia". 

Page 194.

 

Having a quick look I haven't been able to find anything so hopefully for once it's from later than us in the timeline. 

[Sothalor]

"Amit" could be a play on "Ammit", the Egyptian god who weighs the hearts of the dead upon the Scales of Justice. One of her titles was "Devourer of the Dead" - that seems fitting for Amit and the pre-Sanguinius cultural norms of the IXth Legion.

[DarKnight]

4 hours ago, Sothalor said:

"Amit" could be a play on "Ammit", the Egyptian god who weighs the hearts of the dead upon the Scales of Justice. One of her titles was "Devourer of the Dead" - that seems fitting for Amit and the pre-Sanguinius cultural norms of the IXth Legion.

I can see that being an influence 

[cheywood]

Finally finished this a moment ago. I took my time with it, as I sometimes like to do when confronted with a work of incredible beauty. I’m sure others have already expressed the thoughts I have given the length of this thread, so suffice it to say that I think this is a masterpiece. It’s unique in its focus and tone, keeping things very centered on the experiential reality of the Siege for just a few characters. In doing so it perfectly captures the feeling of an empire about to be subsumed by the hell of its sentient backwash. There are single chapters in this book that contain more brilliant prose than most BL novels. In terms of storytelling ability I didn’t think ADB could grow higher in my esteem, but with this he has. 

[Moonreaper666]

I'm glad they did something different with Ka'Bandha and made Daemons much more threatening in the Siege

 

I sometimes forget just how OP Chaos Daemons can be due to not needing logistics or having any frontlines to fight. Changes which side is the one running out of time in the Siege

[Taliesin]

For those who dont follow the upcoming books thread, book 8 is now up on Amazon with a February release date.

[System Sound]

Sigh.

Spoiler

Didnt World Eaters loose all momentum when Angel Boy ripped the nails out of Angrons skull, thus banishing him. And the horde was stumbling also?

 

The shields of Vengeful Spirit are already lowered. I'm betting that Horus is baiting the Emperor to come and duel him, because he realizes that that's the only way he can still come out on top of this massive waste of a siege, since Guiliman is already knocking on the back door of Sol.

 

Oh but i forget. You keeping pushing your own narrative, without even reading the book in question. So maybe do us and yourself a favour, read the book. And then deliver something constructive that isn't "Daemons murder everyone and everything bull:cuss:"...

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by System Sound
Misspelled "horde"...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yeah like always moonreaper doesn't get what chaos is. It's really clear that he skipped slaves to darkness and the siege books, because they go to great efforts to show that chaos magnifies the individual.

 

The positives are the power; a strong fighter gets stronger, a powerful wizard becomes more spellcastery, etc...

 

The negative is they only care about their own personal ends, which also serve to feed their patron god. They don't cooperate well, and the further they gain power, the worse it gets. The most impressive warlords are ones that are able to rally warriors past that amplified selfishness, like Abaddon or Daravek.

 

There is no military cooperation at this point. The warmachines like titans and battleships have been twisted into things that are driven by instinct. The legionaries are basically a mindless tidal wave that were infighting before angron got banished. Really, daemons are the only things left that follow a plan, and that's because they're aspects of one entity.

 

On to specific commentary:

 

Spoiler

There are defenders to stop the daemons. There's not a lot at this point, but they're there. That's why there was a scene of custodes preparing to defend the dungeon when vulkan reentered the webway. If you read the book you'd know that.

 

The traitors are a ramshackle horde. They have no coordination, much less cooperation. The series has consistently shown how the vox is failing as the siege goes on; this book reduces the armies to medieval warfare in more than one way. The legions don't have reserves in orbit; they sent them all down to break terra in time. The entire point of solar war was to show how time was of the essence. If you read the books you'd know that.

 

The breaches in the walls are super perilous to climb for titans. It took a warhound (the most nimble titan with the lowest center of mass) days to get up, and almost died twice to the debris. Also, the titans basically can't breach the walls without the reactors getting pierced like what happened in mortis. If you read the books you'd know that. 

 

There's more than just custodes left after the end of Echoes. If you read the book you'd know that.  

 

Who knows what's on the vengeful spirit? Go back to the point of needing to throw everything at terra. We do know Abaddon isn't there, since he was on the ground as of warhawk, trying to fight Sigismund. We also know that whatever's on the vengeful spirit loses. The emperor gets to Horus and wipes him out. If you read the books you know that. 

 

The traitors lose. The forces are fighting each other, they have no active leadership, they're just as spent as the imperials, they're taking planetary fire from Lions Gate, and Guilliman is in the system. The point of the siege was to overthrow the emperor, not kill him and die in exchange. They lost.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Scribe]

Its almost as if one doesnt understand that the Palace COULD have been obliterated, if that was the goal.

 

It quite clearly is not, was not, just as it is clear one has not read the books and continues to have zero grasp of the narrative.

[Tolmeus]

At this point you do not need to hide your comments since they are no spoilers but fiction 

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

  Hide contents

Abaddon will be on the VS as he is meant to kill Loken there after the duel

 

Terminators are in the VS. Dark Mechanicum servants and Daemons as well

 

Doombreed is a crystal that Horus can use to summon him

 

Legio Mortis is still there by the Gate

 

 

Abaddon dies on terra. The one we see in the Talon series and beyond is a clone.

 

All the sons of Horus elite died beneath saturnine.

 

The only thing doombreed has done was be jewelry. He's going to suffer the same fate as every other big daemon mentioned: banished. Mortarion, Magnus, fulgrim, khabanda, angron; they've all died with ease and for no gain.

 

Legion mortis are still outside the mercury gate. They could barely deal with 1 psytitan and are afraid of the other 20 odd.

[Scribe]

38 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Abaddon dies on terra. The one we see in the Talon series and beyond is a clone.

 

[Sothalor]

Tis endlessly fascinating how people can read the same body of work and yet read entirely different things.

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

I've read most of the Siege

 

 

Press X.

 

Quote

Millions of Traitors descended on Terra in just one chapter of Mortis alone. Horus' forces outnumber the Loyalists 100k-to-1

 

Irrelevant, the planet is dead. There is no supply chain, and the vessels in orbit are also near death.

 

Quote

Horus had Billions of Guardsmen plus many Traitor Titans while there are less than 5k Loyalist Guardsmen in the Palace

 

Irrelevant, the planet is dead. There is no supply chain, and the vessels in orbit are also near death.

 

Quote

The rampaging World Eaters can't stop Legio Mortis or Dark Mechanicum ARTILLERY from blasting holes on the Gate through SUSTAIN FIRE!!! (Don't need to get close to the Gate or World Eaters to do that)

 

Irrelevant, they want the Palace, not a heaping pile of rubble.

 

Quote

Daemons have teleported into the Palace in great numbers. Some Astartes could do the same. Ahriman, Typhus and Erebus could teleport their personal forces into the Palace and kill the very few, overstretched Custodes and reach the Throne

 

Irrelevant, they cannot hold it.

 

Quote

It's only fair Plot Armor should benefit the Traitors as much as it has benefitted the Loyalists. Dis Irae (survives the Scouring) should be the first Traitor to breach the Eternity Gate. SOME of the World Eaters will pour into the Palace seeking Imperial blood to spill.

 

Irrelevant, we know the Palace stands. Nothing else is relevant.

 

Quote

Vorx can rally the Death Guard into charging inside regardless of the World Eaters to get inside the Palace. Still over a Thousand Word Bearers, plus dozens of Alpha Legion to join them.

 

Who cares? The Death Guard broke with Mortarion's banishment. They cannot hold, and the TK's are no longer engaged either. Alpha Legion? Tell me again about how united the Alpha Legion is.

 

Quote

It get's worse. The same route Ollianius uses to get into the Palace can be used by the Traitors and Daemons.

 

Not quite, but also, utterly irrelevant.

 

Quote

Fulgrim would want to be the one to kill the Emperor on his Throne. Valdor has his hands full.

 

You CLEARLY dont read the books. Fulgrim didnt even want to be there, he no longer cares at all.

 

Quote

It is implied that some of the Legions are much bigger than officially stated. Blood Angels around 270k and World Eaters around 800k. Death Guard outnumber the Scars at least 5-1 prior to Warhawk decimating both Legions.

 

And? The Traitor Legions are broken. BROKEN.

 

Quote

ADB does state there are Trillions on Terra. Hope Abnett points that out and describes how most of those Trillions have died by the start of The End and The Death and how their souls have been devoured by the Dark Gods. Ultimate hopelessness and brutality in life and in death. The truest form of inhumanity/brutality, the Grimdark art of Warhammer truly given life

 

It doesnt matter. If you read the book you would remember that they are watching Terra DIE. Trillions of what? Humans? lol

 

Quote

Surprised there wasn't a scene in which the Chaos Gods revived most of the dead as Revenant Daemons

 

If you understood what you claim to be reading, you would not be.

 

Quote

No wonder the Traitor Legions were still big even after the Scouring, they had Hundreds of Thousands of Astartes. No wonder there are still tens of thousands of HH/Scouring vets amongst the Traitors even by the time of the Great Rift

 

Citation, and relevance?

 

Quote

The Billions of Traitor Humans on Terra could have kept the Ultramarines busy for many weeks on their own!

 

Absolutely not, if you had read this, you would know.

 

Quote

The Emperor is running out of time more so than Horus.

 

What part of Echo's of Eternity gave you the impression that the Traitors were anything but a swirling tide of insanity by the end?

 

Horus wants to control a functional Terra. The only issue right now, is how does whats left even get rebuilt at all.

 

You are welcome.

[cheywood]

I’m not going to wade into specifics here, but let’s believe Moonreaper has read some of the books. Having read something doesn’t always mean you understand what you’ve read within a larger context. It’s easy to misinterpret the Heresy when you enter into it with a million pre-conceived notions and biases from poorly sourced Reddit comments and whatever horror is happening on /tg these days (or wherever one gets misinformed).

Edited November 16, 2022 by cheywood

[Scribe]

38 minutes ago, cheywood said:

I’m not going to wade into specifics here, but let’s believe Moonreaper has read some of the books. Having read something doesn’t always mean you understand what you’ve read within a larger context. It’s easy to misinterpret the Heresy when you enter into it with a million pre-conceived notions and biases from poorly sourced Reddit comments and whatever horror is happening on /tg these days (or wherever one gets misinformed).

 

Would you say reading Echo's (or hey how about Vaults of Terra) that Terra could support 'trillions' of extra military, with no supply lines, no food, no water, in an irradiated, chemical, bio, wasteland?