Men of Iron with Squats Rumour

[Chapter Master Valrak]

So this rumour was sent to me from a source like 2 or 3 years ago, they said Squats were coming back but the Men of Iron would be working with them as well.

 

At the time it sounded like full on Alice in Wonderland but now I can actually see it, especially since the article mentioned DAoT that the Imperium may find heretical.

 

Did a video talking about if anyone is interested:

https://youtu.be/lZJPhR0JGY0

[Captain Idaho]

That could be the twist needed to stop the Squats being too similar to Tau etc. Very interesting.

 

And paint scheme I noticed a similarity between that robot in Blackstone Fortress and the Squat reveal...

[Marshal Mittens]

Plot twist; what if it was an abominable intelligence, i.e. men of iron, who raised up the tau?

[gorg_graggel]

Note: Men of iron are AI, but not all AI has to be Men of iron... Maybe the source got excited about the term AI and conflated it with Men of iron.

 

On the other hand, afaik the rebellion of the Men of iron could have been chaos induced and they are actually not all 'kill all meatbags!', but just want to coexist and not be slaves. So, no 'reprogramming' is necessarilly needed, but just the Kin being less of an ass towards them.

[davextreme]

I’ve always thought it was funny that everyone talks about the heresy all the time but no one ever mentions that time robots almost took over the entire galaxy.

[Tokugawa]

The color scheme makes me remember AT-43.

[N1SB]

Thanks for the heads up, Brother Valrak.  For me, it was a missing piece of the puzzle.

 

 

+++ DISCLAIMER +++

 

 

I actually played 1st edition, I've got 2 friends that collected Squats, I myself have 4 original lead Squat models (which I'll paint up as whatever the new Living Ancestor equivalent is), in fact on this very board both Lady Atia and I were talking about Squats around Horus Heresy Book V: the One With the Provenances Special Rules about Abhumans + Dark Age Technologists to represent Squats (we both commented on this within like 5 minutes of each other).  I clearly support Squats.

 

So unless YOU personally collected Squats, you cannot accuse me of being doom & gloom/pessimistic/negative on Squats, because I'm more invested than you are.

 

 

+++ I was just actually wondering how GW cost-justified the Squats' return +++

 

 

How GW built up the rationale to bring back Squats, a name that became synonymous with discontinuing a product, was just something I was curious about.

 

Brothers who work, worked or know someone who works at a Warhammer Store or FLGS will probably tell you the worst-selling faction is: Genestealer Cults.  This is not a dig at Genestealer Cults, but it was the 1st thing that was brought back from the 1st ed Rogue Trader era, they even had things to cross-sell like you can use Imperial Guard Brood Brothers that'll commandeer Leman Russ tanks to make it more viable, but unfortunately it didn't take off.

 

(I also have a painted Genestealer Hybrids squad and a Patriarch I'm really proud of, thank you, so I'm not being down on them, either.)

 

Genestealer Cults were COOL in 1st ed!  They drove around in Limousines and could mistakenly worship Chaos instead of the Hive Mind!  Way more popular than Squats.  So if Genestealer Cults didn't take off, it's actually hard to justify even considering Squats, as much as we liked them.  Squats were actually way more popular in the Epic range...but anyway, to the main topic.

 

 

+++ Squats needed a "Deal Sweetener" +++

 

 

Somewhere in GW's Nottingham HQ there's someone responsible for the business side of product development who has a Return-On-Investment ratio to justify new projects.  The rate GW is growing and is expected to grow, they got to come up with new products and services offerings...but they gotta justify the ROI in advance.  If you want to go for something easy, it's definitely 40k (and now 30k) there's already such a built-in customer base to grow with.

 

The only problem I think was Genestealer Cults kinda burnt someone like this before, and once burnt, twice shy.

 

It's all a bit fuzzy logic, we'd make forecasts of all potential customers, how many are interested in Squats, then how many would actually buy (and by how much), vs. how much it'll cost.  There's going to be a cost figure based on the molds GW will have to make, the manhours needed to do the artwork and rules and whatever.  You all know this.  It's all a projection, a prediction, but it's ultimately Mathammer and we make a gamble.

 

We don't know the exact costs.  We DON'T need to know the exact costs, because we know they gave Genestealer Cults a go-ahead, that's our baseline.  Another consideration is that GW is in a much better financial situation than before.  It's like...there's a box of miniatures you want to buy as a side project, not something so serious, but your financial situation isn't great so you put it off.  Then you become a multi-millionaire, that box of miniatures is about the same price (just regular GW price hikes, amirite?) and the cost bothers you a whole lot less (but they still take the same effort to paint, which becomes the issue then).

 

But as much as we liked them, Squats weren't that popular except for Epic (the game was actually called Space Marine, no, it wasn't JUST Space Marines they actually had every faction except Tyranids, and yes I played that too).  I was wondering if GW was so flush with cash (it is) that they would just throw money at a Squat project just because.  It still felt off.

 

 

+++ Bundle "Tag Teaming" Squats with something else puts it over the top +++

 

 

Adding a potential new faction, like Men of Iron might easily push Squats over whatever ROI threshold for consideration GW has.

 

It's a big X-Factor, and something I never thought of, but that's a clever move.  Consider Adeptus Mechanicus or 30k Mechanicum.  Not everyone was sold on Techpriests.  But then you add Big Stompy Robots...ah, now I want to collect that army, and the Techpriests and Skitarii come with.  It's a bundling effect.

 

Finally, I was looking at the new Squat miniature you guys showed me and it reminded me a little of the UR-25 from Blackstone Fortress actually.

 

Anyway!  This makes a whole lot more sense to me now.  I got my Beakies back, now I'm going to get my Squats back.  Good times.

[phandaal]

Plot twist; what if it was an abominable intelligence, i.e. men of iron, who raised up the tau?

Pass. Not everything has to be interrelated.

[grailkeeper]

There was a man of Iron in Blackstone Fortress. There was a short story about its background that I haven't read but heard was good. Makes sense they could come back.

[Arendious]

Plot twist; what if it was an abominable intelligence, i.e. men of iron, who raised up the tau?

I suppose that's possible, but it's stretching some already tenuous threads. A vague mention hinting at AI, and a tiny circular detail reminiscent of a T'au detail.

 

I think, of there's any connection, it's another small nod to a shared technical baseline. The Kin and the Imperium both stem from the DAoT human tech base, and the T'au got a jump start when they found what was almost-certainly one of the Imperial colonization fleet ships drifting in their outer solar system.

[Cadmus Tyro]

We shall return.....

Looking forward to see more Men of iron concepts!

Cadmus

[OttoVonAwesome]

I kinda just assumed from the article and BSF the Men of Iron would be allied with them. Thier design philosophy matches up well.

[caladancid]

Thanks for the heads up, Brother Valrak.  For me, it was a missing piece of the puzzle.

 

 

+++ DISCLAIMER +++

 

 

I actually played 1st edition, I've got 2 friends that collected Squats, I myself have 4 original lead Squat models (which I'll paint up as whatever the new Living Ancestor equivalent is), in fact on this very board both Lady Atia and I were talking about Squats around Horus Heresy Book V: the One With the Provenances Special Rules about Abhumans + Dark Age Technologists to represent Squats (we both commented on this within like 5 minutes of each other).  I clearly support Squats.

 

So unless YOU personally collected Squats, you cannot accuse me of being doom & gloom/pessimistic/negative on Squats, because I'm more invested than you are.

 

 

+++ I was just actually wondering how GW cost-justified the Squats' return +++

 

 

How GW built up the rationale to bring back Squats, a name that became synonymous with discontinuing a product, was just something I was curious about.

 

Brothers who work, worked or know someone who works at a Warhammer Store or FLGS will probably tell you the worst-selling faction is: Genestealer Cults.  This is not a dig at Genestealer Cults, but it was the 1st thing that was brought back from the 1st ed Rogue Trader era, they even had things to cross-sell like you can use Imperial Guard Brood Brothers that'll commandeer Leman Russ tanks to make it more viable, but unfortunately it didn't take off.

 

(I also have a painted Genestealer Hybrids squad and a Patriarch I'm really proud of, thank you, so I'm not being down on them, either.)

 

Genestealer Cults were COOL in 1st ed!  They drove around in Limousines and could mistakenly worship Chaos instead of the Hive Mind!  Way more popular than Squats.  So if Genestealer Cults didn't take off, it's actually hard to justify even considering Squats, as much as we liked them.  Squats were actually way more popular in the Epic range...but anyway, to the main topic.

 

 

+++ Squats needed a "Deal Sweetener" +++

 

 

Somewhere in GW's Nottingham HQ there's someone responsible for the business side of product development who has a Return-On-Investment ratio to justify new projects.  The rate GW is growing and is expected to grow, they got to come up with new products and services offerings...but they gotta justify the ROI in advance.  If you want to go for something easy, it's definitely 40k (and now 30k) there's already such a built-in customer base to grow with.

 

The only problem I think was Genestealer Cults kinda burnt someone like this before, and once burnt, twice shy.

 

It's all a bit fuzzy logic, we'd make forecasts of all potential customers, how many are interested in Squats, then how many would actually buy (and by how much), vs. how much it'll cost.  There's going to be a cost figure based on the molds GW will have to make, the manhours needed to do the artwork and rules and whatever.  You all know this.  It's all a projection, a prediction, but it's ultimately Mathammer and we make a gamble.

 

We don't know the exact costs.  We DON'T need to know the exact costs, because we know they gave Genestealer Cults a go-ahead, that's our baseline.  Another consideration is that GW is in a much better financial situation than before.  It's like...there's a box of miniatures you want to buy as a side project, not something so serious, but your financial situation isn't great so you put it off.  Then you become a multi-millionaire, that box of miniatures is about the same price (just regular GW price hikes, amirite?) and the cost bothers you a whole lot less (but they still take the same effort to paint, which becomes the issue then).

 

But as much as we liked them, Squats weren't that popular except for Epic (the game was actually called Space Marine, no, it wasn't JUST Space Marines they actually had every faction except Tyranids, and yes I played that too).  I was wondering if GW was so flush with cash (it is) that they would just throw money at a Squat project just because.  It still felt off.

 

 

+++ Bundle "Tag Teaming" Squats with something else puts it over the top +++

 

 

Adding a potential new faction, like Men of Iron might easily push Squats over whatever ROI threshold for consideration GW has.

 

It's a big X-Factor, and something I never thought of, but that's a clever move.  Consider Adeptus Mechanicus or 30k Mechanicum.  Not everyone was sold on Techpriests.  But then you add Big Stompy Robots...ah, now I want to collect that army, and the Techpriests and Skitarii come with.  It's a bundling effect.

 

Finally, I was looking at the new Squat miniature you guys showed me and it reminded me a little of the UR-25 from Blackstone Fortress actually.

 

Anyway!  This makes a whole lot more sense to me now.  I got my Beakies back, now I'm going to get my Squats back.  Good times.

 

Probably didn't need all that demonstration of street cred to say "I'm excited for Men of Iron as part of an army I like."

[firestorm40k]

Plot twist; what if it was an abominable intelligence, i.e. men of iron, who raised up the tau?

Well, according to the old Black Library book 'Xenology', it was actually the interference of...

 

the Eldar/Aeldari

 

...that was the instigator for the rise of the Tau. Not sure if that has been retconned since (the book came out over 15 years ago..!).

 

Putting Men of Iron with these 'don't call them Squats' should give opportunity for unique units in this new faction's army list. I think the bit in yesterday's WarCom article talking about 'heretical' technology used by them could be a strong hint that this is the case.

[N1SB]

I didn't even know I had street cred until now, but my point is more, "What small projects can we see where GW put 2 otherwise small factions together?"

 

We've obviously seen it before.  They started inserting a Squat and an Imperial Beastman in Necromunda.  But then in Kill Team, Death Korps of Krieg + Ork Kommandos, 2 plastic projects where they couldn't justify on their own...but tag team them, suddenly the maths look a lot better.

 

This rumour of Men of Iron is great.  But understanding this is how GW is thinking in terms of its marketing framework, that's gold.  If true, it tells a lot more than "here's some Men of Iron".

[Lexington]

Someone needs to do an oral history or something about the 3rd Ed big book’s development - it is low-key one of the most incredibly influential pieces of 40K material in the setting’s history, as much of or even more than RT. Just the small scrap about “Men of Iron” alone generates so much in the way of history and fan conversions and now maybe half a faction over twenty years later. Edited April 3, 2022 by Lexington

[beefeb]

Note: Men of iron are AI, but not all AI has to be Men of iron... Maybe the source got excited about the term AI and conflated it with Men of iron.

 

On the other hand, afaik the rebellion of the Men of iron could have been chaos induced and they are actually not all 'kill all meatbags!', but just want to coexist and not be slaves. So, no 'reprogramming' is necessarilly needed, but just the Kin being less of an ass towards them.

 

 

plus, in the lore around men of iron, it wasnt just men f iron, there were men of gold among other mentions of other AI factions...so plenty of open lore areas they can fill out.

[brother_b]

At this point GW knows that if they make a fan-based kit or model or in this case army of something it will sell.

 

The amount of FOMO for GW fans is amazing. I’ve fallen for it myself; I own dominion AOS box which I’ll likely never play because not really a fan of AOS, I own new kill team, old kill team, warcry, and the 8th edition SOB initial release box.

 

I am not proud of my addiction, but games workshop is genius coming up with new armies, they will make a fortune off of this release.

 

Imho of course. Personally I’m always excited for new goodies for my favorite hobby.

Edited April 3, 2022 by brother_b

[Boyadventurer]

There were rumours going around the AoS forums last year that there was going to be a duardin faction that featured golems (there was a short story of Grugni crafting a new Grombrindal, which would sort of be the start of this faction).

I could totally see that being misidentified as Squats+Men of Iron that just happens to tie in with that short story.

The line in the new article "the Leagues emerged from the Age of Strife with far more of their ancient technology intact, including some infamous advances the Imperium would consider extremely heretical" pretty much sells the idea to me.

That said, I really do want an army of dwarf dreadnoughts to play in AoS.
 

[Scribe]

Someone needs to do an oral history or something about the 3rd Ed big book’s development - it is low-key one of the most incredibly influential pieces of 40K material in the setting’s history, as much of or even more than RT. Just the small scrap about “Men of Iron” alone generates so much in the way of history and fan conversions and now maybe half a faction over twenty years later.

 

I'd pay for this.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

Someone needs to do an oral history or something about the 3rd Ed big book’s development - it is low-key one of the most incredibly influential pieces of 40K material in the setting’s history, as much of or even more than RT. Just the small scrap about “Men of Iron” alone generates so much in the way of history and fan conversions and now maybe half a faction over twenty years later.

 

I'd pay for this.

 

Read by Henry Cavill :D 

[jaxom]

Finally, I was looking at the new Squat miniature you guys showed me and it reminded me a little of the UR-25 from Blackstone Fortress actually.

 

The first thing I noticed was the plasma pistol and how it shared the 1950's sci-fi ray gun aesthetic (along with the Kin's what I call bubble armor) with UR-25 and the Mechanicus robots. I think the initial visual aesthetic we've definitely meshes with the Men of Iron. I think what will be interesting is how the design and lore team are going to add the necessary "not all is as it seems," to them. For example, Tau and the Ethereal caste.

 

They started inserting a Squat and an Imperial Beastman in Necromunda.

 

The second thing I thought was how this may help normalize more abhumans in the game. A good Kin launch (they're not just Dwarves in Space!) could be what makes Beastmen in a Chaos book and Ratlings in the upcoming Astra Militarum book more palatable.

[Varyn]

We shall return.....

Looking forward to see more Men of iron concepts!

Cadmus

these are simply outstanding

[spessmarine]

Note: Men of iron are AI, but not all AI has to be Men of iron... Maybe the source got excited about the term AI and conflated it with Men of iron.

 

On the other hand, afaik the rebellion of the Men of iron could have been chaos induced and they are actually not all 'kill all meatbags!', but just want to coexist and not be slaves. So, no 'reprogramming' is necessarilly needed, but just the Kin being less of an ass towards them.

This I agree with.

I think the obvious choice for extremely heretical tech would be abominable intelligences. But no relation to MoI is needed.

[Kelborn]

Men of Iron seems reasonable to me.

At least as some in an elite or supportive role.

 

Question is: are there other old tech bits mentioned earlier which could pop up in the codex?

Could imagine some hover-ish stuff like gyrocopters.

 

Somehow the model reminds me of the Kharadron Overlords. Wouldn't be against a more air force centred faction in 40k instead of another bigger the better themed one.