*SPOILERS* Dorn/Alpharius discussion

[USNCenturion]

What are the chances that Alpharius actually assumed Dorns identity somewhere during the events of Praetorian of Dorn, and it’s he that’s impersonating him after the battle of Pluto all the way up to Dorns “disappearance” on a Chaos space hulk? 
 

I think it would explain a lot that Legion, Head of the Hydra, and PoD put out there that hasn’t made sense or seemed at odds with each other. 
 

Consider the scene of Dorn outright lying to Sanguinius and Khan about Vulken being in the palace dungeon. That was so out of character for Dorn, especially considering Alpharius stating Dorn never lies. Also, the scene with Dorn and Malcador at the beginning of Saturnine; for some reason I thought it odd the way those two were speaking to each other, but when I think of Alpharius’ relationship with Malcador, it kind of makes more sense?

Alpharius didn’t trust Dorn. He also wanted to protect the Imperium or at least the idea of it. Maybe he thought he’d do a better job of it and that’s what the ultimate mission of the deep cover operation in PoD was supposed to achieve?

Im not as read up on everything as some of you folks are, but listening to Head of the Hydra again things are standing out upon additional listen through. I’m wondering if any of you thought the same things or if there are bits out there that completely negate these thoughts. I’d love to hear them. 
 

Last thought; wouldn’t that be the ultimate insult to Dorn and the Fists if it was Alpharius who threw them into the Iron Cage meat grinder? I never understood Dorn doing that, but if it wasn’t him, but rather someone who didn’t really like him or his legion…

Hydra Dominatus and all that lol

[Karhedron]

For me, the big point against that theory is the scene with Omegon at the end PoD where he wakes up after blacking out and realises he is alone. That was a 1st person pov so was likely a genuine reaction to his twin's death.

[USNCenturion]

Perhaps that was sent psychically by Alpharius or even Malcador? I think that part is pretty decisively in the camp of it was Alpharius that died, and it’s because he underestimated Dorn. 
 

I think that had to happen narratively though, because then the kill really wouldn’t have seemed real, but fluff wise everything we were told or know about Alpharius makes it seem like it could just be more lies and misdirection. 
 

That’s the big hard evidence against my point for sure though. 

[Kastor Krieg]

Clutching at straws, IMO.

[USNCenturion]

53 minutes ago, Reclusiarch Krieg said:

Clutching at straws, IMO.

Trying to have a discussion of an interesting topic, as to why it is or isn’t a possible theory. 

[Jareddm]

The answers to all of this lay in author interviews.  French and co have definitively confirmed that it was Alpharius, the Primarch, twin brother of Omegon, who died and no one else.  The idea behind it is everything about the Alpha Legion was so nebulous, "The legion is XYZ, OR IS IT?  Their fighting style is ABC OR IS IT?" Alpharius's death is the one piece of the legion that isn't nebulous.

As for Dorn's lie, this was most likely a fix over the fact that the authors completely forgot that Vulkan and Dorn had already met on Terra.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Jareddm

[USNCenturion]

I suppose I’m just finding it hard to believe that PoD was just Alpharius being a jobber  to Dorn to put him over before the siege. If that’s the case then Head of the Hydra seems a little flat. I guess Abnett will address it in his book if anybody is gonna follow up on it. 

[Sothalor]

That's... the point.

Alpharius always thinks he's so much more clever, so much wiser and more knowledgeable and in control of the situation than everyone around him. He self-rationalizes all the games and showmanship and assumes other people just don't get it because obviously they're not as cunning as he is.

Praetorian was going out of its way to show (with the flashback post-conquest scene between Dorn and Alpharius) that Dorn had a better intuitive, personal understanding of Alpharius than the latter was willing to give him credit for. And that conversely, Alpharius did not understand Dorn quite as well as he thought he did.

It's a classic tale of hubris and resultant downfall.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

46 minutes ago, EnsignJoker said:

I suppose I’m just finding it hard to believe that PoD was just Alpharius being a jobber  to Dorn to put him over before the siege. 

This is why you never give the booker gig to an active talent.

[Roomsky]

I don't believe that theory is especially plausible, but I think it's fun and a pretty creative way to explain some internal inconsistencies. Counterpoint from the text though - Dorn laments about having to lie about concealing Vulkan's presence in a Saturnine internal monologue. Why would Alpharius be upset by that?

The reality of the situation is that if GW decides Alpharius didn't actually die on Pluto, then he didn't. I respect French's intent to have it be an unambiguous death, and I think the text supports that well enough, but author commentary is always going to be less binding than word of GW. Authors making authoritative statements outside of their text has never sat well with me anyway. It's not for ADB to say Chaos' victory is inevitable, or for French to say Alpharius is definitely dead, any more than it is for Haley to say the Maximus Thane at Terra is the same Maximus Thane in The Beast Arises even though there's concrete textual evidence to the contrary.

[DarkChaplain]

At least none of them tried to tell us that Space Marines actually defecate into tiny warp portals. Looking at you, Rowling.

I really just want an Eskrador novel that puts Omegon against Guilliman, leading to him getting the Primarch tech they totally forgot about in the Heresy, and making Roboute go and hire the finest gene-meddler left in the Sol System. There's some real potential for clearing up a bunch of fluff inconsistencies and questions there, while building up the Alpha Legion significantly for modern 40k with all it'll imply.

[Karhedron]

I don't know about Eskrador. The HH series has pulled back the veil of mystery on all the events from 10,000 years ago to mixed feelings. As the most enigmatic and confusing Prmiarch, I think having Omegon simply vanish is perhaps more fitting than tying up every loose end.

[Moonreaper666]

On 7/13/2022 at 2:49 AM, Karhedron said:

I don't know about Eskrador. The HH series has pulled back the veil of mystery on all the events from 10,000 years ago to mixed feelings. As the most enigmatic and confusing Prmiarch, I think having Omegon simply vanish is perhaps more fitting than tying up every loose end.

Omegon abadoned his Legion post-Heresy

The Alpha Legion is fully committed to the Traitor cause after the Scouring. Vast majority corrupted by Chaos, very small minority anti-Imperial renegades

[Helias_Tancred]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:49 AM, Karhedron said:

I don't know about Eskrador. The HH series has pulled back the veil of mystery on all the events from 10,000 years ago to mixed feelings. As the most enigmatic and confusing Prmiarch, I think having Omegon simply vanish is perhaps more fitting than tying up every loose end.

I'm also hoping that Omegan is still around...

 

[Jagus Kumkani]

On 7/12/2022 at 11:01 AM, Karhedron said:

For me, the big point against that theory is the scene with Omegon at the end PoD where he wakes up after blacking out and realises he is alone. That was a 1st person pov so was likely a genuine reaction to his twin's death.

I agree. The perspective of Omegon confirms he indeed is alone and his brother is gone. Also the fact that Alpharius' death is similar in nature to Ferrus' with the warp "explosion" from him actually being killed. Alpharius playing Dorn sounds very Alpha Legion like but the track doesn't really follow with the remaining events of the Siege of Terra and the Scouring afterwards. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Alpharius? Never heard of her.

I am the Dorn Man. They are the Dorn Men. I am the Wall, Russ.

Goo goo g'joob.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Lord Nord