Which units do you think are great for their cost, which are insanely overpriced?

[Marshal Mittens]

Some units seem to be amazing deals for the points you pay, others are super over priced for what you get.

Contemptor Dreadnaughts and Predators (depending on the gun), as well as most HSS seem to be very reasonably priced, an amazing deal for what you get.

 

Any of legion specific termies and Leviathan dreads, as well as the Kratos and most non predator tanks in general seem a bit over costed. 

What are your thoughts?

[Bung]

Personly i think the upgrade from Heavy Bolters to Vulkite Culverins in HSS and Jetbikes Squads for 5 Points is insanly cheap.

[TheFirstKnight]

For me? Contemptor Dreadnoughts are incredibly good for their cost. On the flipside, Castella-Achea are insanely overpriced. For 35pts more, the Contemptor has infinitely better stats, and better weaponry. It's really disappointing to have a RoW based around them when they're barely going to be used in their current state. The Mech Castella are, what about 55pts cheaper? Bonkers.

 

That said, a lot of the TS units/rules are paying for the sins of HH1.0. Which really really sucks.

Edited August 19, 2022 by TheFirstKnight

[Misterduch]

I'd say the contemptor could be 190 base and still be good. Leviathan is the same really, a small price hike wouldn't hurt it.

Predators should stay where they are, they work well as gun platforms but require smart placement because a stiff breeze may knock them out

Sicarans should probably drop a good 10 to 15 points depending on the variant to be more inline with the predators, as currently I don't find the regular sicaran to be worth the extra 70 points for 2" movement, better rear armour, 1 extra hull point and a better base gun. It's not the worst thing in the world but I would like a small cost reduction

Besides that, I'd say the kratos, spartan and most super heavies should get a small discount here or there. I am talking like cheaper sponson options or a few points off the base price

[Gorgoff]

Stormsword cost 900 points which is insanely overcosted. 

Like all non HH exklusive and out of production units from the pdf. Pretty palpable that GW wants people to not like and therefore buy them for their HH armies. 

Edit: The Castaferrum Dreadnought is the exception here. Great unit which is very reasonable priced. 

On 8/16/2022 at 1:57 AM, Marshall Mittens said:

Any of legion specific termies and Leviathan dreads, as well as the Kratos and most non predator tanks in general seem a bit over costed. 

What are your thoughts?

Tyrant Siege Terminators and Dominators are both extremly cheap for what you get. Fulmentarus as well. 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Gorgoff

[Brofist]

~300pts to give a command squad jet bikes is crazy expensive

the command rhino is also really expensive for what it does

[Cruor Vault]

5 hours ago, Brofist said:

~300pts to give a command squad jet bikes is crazy expensive

the command rhino is also really expensive for what it does

I think the command Rhino is like....  100pts overpriced.

[Slips]

The Command Rhino can transport up to 3 TDA models as far as I can tell as a verrrrrrrrry small and limited side benefit

[TheTrans]

4 hours ago, Slips said:

The Command Rhino can transport up to 3 TDA models as far as I can tell as a verrrrrrrrry small and limited side benefit

They forget to give it the infantry transport rule? 

[Slips]

19 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

They forget to give it the infantry transport rule? 

Yup lmao.

[Ripper.McGuirl]

As Gorgoff mentioned, some of the Expanded units are out to lunch, price wise. Nomus Rhy'tan for the Salamanders costs almost as much as Sigismund and has a consul profile.

[MichaelCarmine]

One of my favourite units - the Caestus Assault Ram.

It exchanged its 5+ invul for a flare shield, got a nerf to its main gun, lost the ability to transport up to 10 terminators, got a major nerf to its ramming capability and it went up by 45pts...

[Marshal Mittens]

I feel like, in casual games, I would cost the super heavy tanks like the shadow sword at 50% their price in the book. And give the Stormlord a capacity of 20 for transport. 

[TheTrans]

The Legacies units are just bonkers-knackered. 

Liber Astartes
Too Good - Contemptors
Face-Punched - Fire Raptor

 

Legacies Document
Too Good - Fulmentarus Termies
Face Punched Any of the 'Guard' Super Heavies, espcially the Shadowsword

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, TheTrans said:

The Legacies units are just bonkers-knackered. 

Liber Astartes
Too Good - Contemptors
Face-Punched - Fire Raptor

 

Legacies Document
Too Good - Fulmentarus Termies
Face Punched Any of the 'Guard' Super Heavies, espcially the Shadowsword

That's a spicy take lol.

Fire Raptors were incredibly underpointed in 1st, and while it did go up a lot of points, its also now able to shoot all of its weapons in the front arc. There's definitely a lot to argue that they're far less effective for the role now, but at least it still functions and any drop in efficacy was due to the changes in wounds and dreads. Stuff like the sabre, sicaran and the punisher  variant can't really claim that; stuff like the morbus and spicula arquitor, and omega sicaran (and all the expanded barrage tanks) basically dont do anything; stuff like outriders are just too wildly expense to risk using (and that goes for those super-heavy tanks you listed too). 

The fulmentarus care definitely too good compared to the rest of the expanded and exemplary battle units. But they're equivalent to the other A tier units: tyrants, HSS las squads, suzerains, rampagers, etc...The hammer suzerains wildly out damage the fulmentarus at the same points level, score, and are all characters.

[TheTrans]

16 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

That's a spicy take lol.

Fire Raptors were incredibly underpointed in 1st, and while it did go up a lot of points, its also now able to shoot all of its weapons in the front arc. There's definitely a lot to argue that they're far less effective for the role now, but at least it still functions and any drop in efficacy was due to the changes in wounds and dreads. Stuff like the sabre, sicaran and the punisher  variant can't really claim that; stuff like the morbus and spicula arquitor, and omega sicaran (and all the expanded barrage tanks) basically dont do anything; stuff like outriders are just too wildly expense to risk using (and that goes for those super-heavy tanks you listed too). 

The fulmentarus care definitely too good compared to the rest of the expanded and exemplary battle units. But they're equivalent to the other A tier units: tyrants, HSS las squads, suzerains, rampagers, etc...The hammer suzerains wildly out damage the fulmentarus at the same points level, score, and are all characters.

I think they copped a few 'stealth' nerfs as well. in 1st they could come in, loose off the rockets at one target, POTMS Brrrrrt a target then the auto cannons could let rip. Now they can come on, split fire with 3 weapons and a single missle. So nerf there. Also the unit-wide nerf of no jink for flyers as well is a pretty big one, also a complete inability to react (except evade) (which is another flyer nerf) is another part they are then lacking in in regards to 2.0. So not just like a flat nerf based on points, but a pretty big one based on rule changes and edition changes, think of a like wholistic dick-punch.

Its the Fulentarus Plasma missiles that are the major issue, S8, AP2, Brutal (2).. makes them terminator killers. Would be interesting to see a roll off between them and a unit of siege tyrants both in -flat- shooting range. When you then line them up against the stuff in the Legacies document, its like Matt Ward snuck onto the interns computer while they went out fo a smoke and cackled with glee the entire time, then slunk back off to hug his Guilliman waifu pillow. 

[Fallen11]

Also on the note of the Fulmentarus, not only are they terminator killers(they actually deal very nice with leviathans and dreadnoughts too), they can also kill them and not be seen at all, since they can fire out of LOS, and basically say, yeah, you get no reaction to shoot back at us for example.

 

On the note of overpriced legion LOW - Glaive, not really sure how is this worth 700 pts which is more than both falchion and fellblade who are cheaper and better,lol. They seriously nerfed main gun on a tank that wasn't that great to begin with. And because of how rules interact, you can have you model behind sandbag for example and be completely invunerable to glaive main gun. Also, that 2+ sargent can prolly tank all the hits no problem. Beam stops on vehicle, dreadnought etc. making it even less effective. For how much you are paying for this tank, only to kill few models if you are lucky, it's crazy. Any smart opponent will just spread his models a bit, making it impossible for you to hit more than few. Other 2 variants can just happily sit back and blast things, whill Glaive needs to drive around trying to get angle to hit model or two more, pay attention no to hit your stuff in the process, watch not to hit anything that makes beam stop, which is a lot of stuff, unless you are completely on open.

Then there is Mastadon...hey, but you can transport dreadnoughts inside, yea...or just buy like 4 instead of getting mastadon to begin with,lol, who are not only more survivable, but have better firepower and awesome cc potential,nuff said...it's very very expensive taxy with very underwhelming firepower. If you want to transport troops, might as well get 2 spartans(and also save a lot of $$$ in the process and a lot of frustration building Mastadon, one of the worst models I had to build so far).

[Orange Knight]

I don't think any unique unit is "too good" although some are definitely better than others.

I do think the various Super Heavy tanks have been treated poorly, however. The Baneblade has a plastic kit, why are it's variants so poorly costed?

[Misterduch]

5 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

That's a spicy take lol.

Fire Raptors were incredibly underpointed in 1st, and while it did go up a lot of points, its also now able to shoot all of its weapons in the front arc. There's definitely a lot to argue that they're far less effective for the role now, but at least it still functions and any drop in efficacy was due to the changes in wounds and dreads. Stuff like the sabre, sicaran and the punisher  variant can't really claim that; stuff like the morbus and spicula arquitor, and omega sicaran (and all the expanded barrage tanks) basically dont do anything; stuff like outriders are just too wildly expense to risk using (and that goes for those super-heavy tanks you listed too). 

The fulmentarus care definitely too good compared to the rest of the expanded and exemplary battle units. But they're equivalent to the other A tier units: tyrants, HSS las squads, suzerains, rampagers, etc...The hammer suzerains wildly out damage the fulmentarus at the same points level, score, and are all characters.

I think Omega is atleast a fun tank to play around with. Sure if it can whiff pretty hard with it's main gun, but if it hits, it can hit stupidly hard for 240 points ( with lascannons ). It also had the flexibility of 8 plasma shots at 36" twinlinkes and the 2 anti vechicle shots.

Spicula on the other hand makes me reconsider my fondness for the model completly.

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 hours ago, TheTrans said:

I think they copped a few 'stealth' nerfs as well. in 1st they could come in, loose off the rockets at one target, POTMS Brrrrrt a target then the auto cannons could let rip. Now they can come on, split fire with 3 weapons and a single missle. So nerf there. Also the unit-wide nerf of no jink for flyers as well is a pretty big one, also a complete inability to react (except evade) (which is another flyer nerf) is another part they are then lacking in in regards to 2.0. So not just like a flat nerf based on points, but a pretty big one based on rule changes and edition changes, think of a like wholistic dick-punch.

I definitely agree that there's some meta changes that decrease their efficiency. But they still function quite well at killing medium vehicles and 3+ save stuff. If I ever find my painted flying stand, I'd take a fire raptor; arcus and scorpius don't kill themselves lol. And the hellfires average a pen into av 14, so that's something else to consider too. Obviously if your friends spam AA, then you don't want to take flyers, but that was the same in 1st. People don't tend to permanently take AA if there's no flyers, so just wait it out.

 

7 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Its the Fulentarus Plasma missiles that are the major issue, S8, AP2, Brutal (2).. makes them terminator killers. Would be interesting to see a roll off between them and a unit of siege tyrants both in -flat- shooting range.

@Fallen11

Yea, they're very good terminator and single model entity killers, but pretty bad against other profiles, and especially unimpressive in melee. Their range is also a huge handicap; they have to get into position to shoot, and be there already before the targetters can be activated (resulting in it activating around turn 3 on average). If you foot slog, you're very open to sniper and scorpius fire; if you transport, you're inflating the big cost even higher; if you warmonger, there might be reserve delays, interceptor and another increase in points.

Tyrants obviously aren't as good into terminators and dreads, but they're way better against everything else; vehicles get whacked, infantry gets pounded, speeders die faster*, flyers are permanently deterred (kind of being the exception to "wait it out" above lol) . Their range makes them able to shoot and return fire from the get go, without investing more pooints, requiring the snipers and scorpius to be positioned properly to pin them/pick them off. Omniscopes play into that by making them immune to all the night effects, letting them pierce shroud, and free intercept just to be extra rude. And then, if you make it through the waves of rockets, they all have fists stock to cut through artificer and instakill multi-wounds.

I truly believe that tyrants are more oppressive to play against overall; fulmentarus are making waves because they're next to a ton of awful units, and because they kind of laugh at the people expecting to have dreads and elite melee units go straight into the enemy line and win the game. And to be fair, once those units hit combat they'll be doing an awful lot more damage output than the fulmentarus could ever hope to with their plasma missiles.

*If the speeder unit was going to evade for the rerolls, the tyrants can always ignore it. If there's no reactions left or the targeters are activated, then they both average a dead speeder per volley. 

[Noserenda]

15 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I do think the various Super Heavy tanks have been treated poorly, however. The Baneblade has a plastic kit, why are it's variants so poorly costed?

You answered your own question there :D 

I normally laugh at people saying rules writers are trying to sell models but this edition they are desperately trying not to sell some they dont directly benefit from as a studio inside of greater GW.

[Brother_Angelus]

16 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I don't think any unique unit is "too good" although some are definitely better than others.

I do think the various Super Heavy tanks have been treated poorly, however. The Baneblade has a plastic kit, why are it's variants so poorly costed?

It doesn't seem the Legacy PDF is supposed to be good or balanced, it's just supposed to placate people who already have weird niche units in their collections.

They're just bad enough people will buy the new stuff they release instead of chasing old kits or converting units GW or FW don't even sell.

[TheTrans]

1 hour ago, Brother_Angelus said:

It doesn't seem the Legacy PDF is supposed to be good or balanced, it's just supposed to placate people who already have weird niche units in their collections.

They're just bad enough people will buy the new stuff they release instead of chasing old kits or converting units GW or FW don't even sell.

Which GW have always done, there isn't a change there, but I don't think its been as blatantly brazen as this release. Generally :cuss: they didn't want being sold/chased was sub-par, but usable. 

The legavy document has thrown any subterfuge to the wind with how horrific some of the units are 'balanced'. Stuff like the Shadowsword being infinitely inferior to the Falchion and costing 200 points more..like..jesus...  A basic Macharius (which you honestly could pretty easily just use the Kratos rules forit) is twice the cost of the Kratos and, inferior in every way and a LoW to boot! 

[Bung]

If you talk about Super Heavies never look at the Preator Armoured Assault Launcher.

That one got it really hard.

[Sir Frenchy]

In a vacuum, Contemptors are really effective for their cost (more so in certain legions obviously). Couple them in the FoTA RoW and they become very oppressive to face, but I’m not the first one to say this.
We also have the humble 5pts thunder hammer upgrade for terminators which is a really effective upgrade just because of how insanely effective Brutal is.
Speaking of Brutal, I’ll go a bit off topic and say that the rule itself could use a nerf in having a drawback or condition to apply. This or a price increase for units and wargear that have Brutal in their kit (I’ve seen Russ one shot Angron after a successful charge …)
As for primarchs, Russ is really cost effective by being a combat beast and adding a lot to his army. I haven’t played against Dorn yet, but he looks intimidating to face considering his points cost. Guilliman in the logos is also a thing in its own.
In term of legion specific units, Suzerains have a lot in their kit for their entry cost. Warders are fine by themselves, but the stone gauntlet makes them … unsufferable to face by giving them too much on top of their already nice rules.

As for the units that are on the over costed side of the spectrum: a lot of the artillery tanks have been nerfed too heavily and I struggle to earn their points back (except for the Scorpius which remains effective) while using them.