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Changes to the Horus Heresy Fluff - The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly


Roomsky

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Pretty spot on Roomsky! 

Lorgar breaking off and making his own lil Empire out of the remains of the shadow crusade after Angron goes raring off would have been interesting as an opposition to Secundus and then have him confess to Guiliman in some titanic confrontation that Terra is fine, bit more fun for him than just sulking out the siege and he can ravage Ultramar a bit more when Guiliman leaves for bonus pathos.

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Aight here's another one: I really dislike how physically powerful individuals are during the Heresy, especially the primarchs.

There's a reason so many primarchs survive the Heresy in old fluff: They're generals, they lead from command centres, not the front. Whenever opposing primarchs actually did meet in the old fluff, one of them died. The invincible superhuman thing just isn't that compelling to me, and it may just be personal preference, but seeing the primarchs lead campaigns properly instead of jumping head-first into the enemy lines would have been more interesting. 

I'd love to see Vulkan sweating over every company he has to condemn to death for the sake of the wider war. I'd love to see him weighing the casualties of his troops against the lives of civilians, and having to decide between pragmatism and duty. I don't find Vulkan regenerating from Curze's Wild Ride over and over again very appealing by comparison, if I'm being honest.

Even worse with some of the "cool" acrobatic feats going on. No, I don't think even the great Horus Lupercal should be able to jump in terminator armour.

Not that it needs to be hardcore military sci/fi, or even tone down the space opera that much. But when the Lion and Curze are having their fourth duel to the almost-death, I have to roll my eyes. It's just not fun or epic if there's no stakes, if you want hyper-dramatic battles, make them between astartes captains who might actually face lasting consequences for a loss. Focus on the mental, the pathos of it all for the primarchs. Thramas doesn't need The Lion and Curze to meet in person for there to be an epic duel between them. Have a decisive fleet battle instead, the primarchs sniping at each other over the hololith all the while. You can have all the catharsis and rivalry and epic stakes without making me wonder how one of them's going to escape this time.

So yeah, not my cuppa. Make the primarchs, like, around what nameless custodes are now. Tone down the golden bananas hard and make the astartes slightly more vulnerable to shelling. Genuinely curious if others are in agreement for this one.

I'll write about changes I like next time, promise.

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On the one hand Roomsky, I hate 'hero hammer' and agree.

On the other hand, Angron holding off a Warhound Titan trying to stomp down on Lorgar is one of the lasting images I have of the series.

There is a middle line, and how/why Vulkan turned into an ever regenerating perpetual, I'll never understand, but the Primarch's being 'mythic' in ability isnt too bad, to me.

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As foretold, the changes/additions/retcons I unambiguously enjoyed. Keeping them short-ish for the sake of my sanity. Feel free to refute me or post your own!

The Twin Primarchs - if you must expand the Heresy as Black Library did, introducing another primarch into the mix without touching the lost legions is a great move. Even better, it means one of them can die! While I'm not in love with all of the twentieth's developments in Legion, this is one is an unintrusive springboard for more, good stories. The Alpha Legion memes are a bit much at this point but I at least appreciate how they generate discussion.

All things Angron (and sundry) - I don't think the twelfth really got burned by much in the heresy, all of their changes and additions have really just been shining a spotlight on what was practically a one-note bit of backstory. I never thought I'd be sad for a guy named Angron, but Betrayer hits, man. This is the kind of expansion and development I'd have loved for every legion.

The Word Bearers' obsession with the Truth - The First Heretic completely re-defined this legion and saved them from being probably the least interesting Chaos faction. No more is their sadism empty, or for its own sake. The Word Bearers as zealots slaved foremost to the truth of the universe, rather than purely by a lust for power, is way more compelling. While they aren't completely saved from being the setting's vanilla baddies, we have a much more interesting range now than ever before. I have yet to tire of the Pious vs Ambitious Word Bearer dynamic.

The Wolves as the Emperor's executioners - I just really don't like the bombastic 40k Wolves. Abnett really did the faction a boon by focusing in on a semi-serious viking motif and having them self-assured enough to make Prospero believable. Their arc of realizing their cold, murder-happy attitude was a bad thing is great too, even if it fizzles a bit later on. The cultural development here is the only reason I've enjoyed any Wolf story by any author, period.

The Thramas Crusade - I liked this premise a lot, my only complaint is that we didn't get more of it. Both legions needed something exciting to do during the Heresy, and the dynamic of the Lion being forced to war with Curze on the latter's terms is one of the Heresy's only interesting combat premises. The Lion and Curze are good foils to each other, and it's galacto-graphically out of the way enough that characters like Astelan would have genuinely thought the Lion was keeping out of the fighting (you know, back before Astelan was insufferable.) If this had been expanded it would have been a much less goofy use of these legion's and primarchs than what happened over Imperium Secundus.

Erebus and Horus being at odds over Signus - Fear to Tread is mediocre but I love this element. Chaos viewing Sanguinius as another prize to be gained and Horus' paranoia about usurpation all tracks with what we know about them. This plotline brings some good (if underutilized) intrigue to yet another "a legion finds out Daemons exist" story.

Jaghatai grappling with which side to join - It was very refreshing to see a loyalist legion not just defaulting to the Emperor's side in the wake of the Heresy. Jaghatai's doubt, especially around Prospero, is deftly handled and is another layer to the magnitude of Russ' error in burning the planet. And hey, I still love a stalwart brick of a character (Dorn,) but Jaghatai is just so much more dynamic and interesting for his indecision.

The Emperor stealing power from the Chaos Gods - The power-scaling of the novel series flew way out of whack pretty early on, so while perhaps not needed, this element does make some sense. It's also a great element for Horus to reflect on and match on his own journey to damnation, and it adds more grey to the Emperor's methods (not that he needed it, lol,) he's a ruthless pragmatist in a hurry, of course nothing's off the table in his pursuit of power. Also, I just like the Prometheus parallel for the Big E. 

The Iron Hands, starting at Pythos - it certainly took the authors a few swings to make these guys anything more than Fulgrim's punching-bag, but once Damnation of Pythos and Meduson dropped I really started to love them. They're in a situation no other legion can boast, and have no coping mechanism in ambiguity like the Salamanders. Watching the legion attempt to go its own way and lead a hyper-aggressive guerilla campaign against Horus only to implode on itself was very compelling, IMO. Meduson is a great figure as a leader and a good foil to the Medusan (lol) cultural die-hards. The ongoing balancing act between effectiveness and respecting tradition is a fun one. I know a lot of people hate how Meduson went out, but I loved it - in fact it was the kind of brutal, ignoble death I thought the series needed way more of.

Drach'nyen in the Webway - A great choice for this conflict, in my opinion. Not that Drach'nyen is some great personality or anything, but it adds an importance and lethality to the malice under the palace beyond "daemons unending." And while I'm normally against shrinking the universe, it does make the daemon falling into Abaddon's hands later more compelling to the old fluff, for me. It's just so much more portentous than "there was some daemon sword in a tower, it's Abaddon's now."

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56 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

The Emperor stealing power from the Chaos Gods - The power-scaling of the novel series flew way out of whack pretty early on, so while perhaps not needed, this element does make some sense. It's also a great element for Horus to reflect on and match on his own journey to damnation, and it adds more grey to the Emperor's methods (not that he needed it, lol,) he's a ruthless pragmatist in a hurry, of course nothing's off the table in his pursuit of power. Also, I just like the Prometheus parallel for the Big E. 

If there is a single thing Abnett can do for me, just ONE TIME, its expand and clarify this. Make it obvious. Make it, 'yep, I did it Horus, what now.' I need that hypocrisy, that arrogance, that tragedy in the classic sense, injected right into my heart.

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2 minutes ago, Scribe said:

If there is a single thing Abnett can do for me, just ONE TIME, its expand and clarify this. Make it obvious. Make it, 'yep, I did it Horus, what now.' I need that hypocrisy, that arrogance, that tragedy in the classic sense, injected right into my heart.

Yeah it's weird not many characters have broached it since. We need Horus to call the old man out. Horus didn't even mine it for propaganda.

Edited by Roomsky
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  • 2 months later...
On 9/15/2022 at 1:36 PM, Tolmeus said:

I definetly like the change of the legion size! I think they were changed after 'Flight of the Eisenstein' from the standard of 10.000 to 100.000. This makes the heresy appear on a much larger scale. 

What I do not like is that in the consequence a company commander should lead about 10.000 Astrates, but in most of the novels only directs numbers up to 1.000. 

I agree with upping the legion size but disagree with the company commander leading 1,000.

 

I actually initially loved the black books take where there were just more layers of command and prefer the idea of 100ish sized companies combined into “battalions”, combined into chapters.

 

I hated that there were legions (like my favorite BA’s) where the highest standing unit is the company. It’s another reason I cannot stand when Swallow touches the BA.

 

The Legions having Chapters makes the codex more organically developed.

”No more legions. No one commands more than a chapter at a time.”

they don’t need to create new organizations because those chapters already existed, with their first chapter masters, and so they just needed to go their separate way.

Edited by Arkangilos
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What a timely moment for this thread to re-emerge.

 

Speculation that Abnett will be making his final entry into 3 seems to have sparked a bit of a wild fire. Please feel free to continue that conversation here.

 

As mentioned elsewhere, If part 2 ends with Horus v Sanguinius, I REALLY hope book 3 will start with the big duel and then deal with the fallout. I know previous interviews stated the series would end with the Emperor on the Throne, but many, many plans have clearly changed since then. Abnett also said he wanted to write about the immediate aftermath of the Heresy on Terra, so maybe we're killing two birds with one stone.

 

I mean no disrespect to the "the real final boss is black rage Sanguinius" theorizers, but if it goes that way I will riot. Or I'll just pretend Echoes is the final entry, take your pick.

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Sanguinius - the best and most perfect son - falling to, or willingly embracing, the Black Rage is truly the logical end of his arc. I've always found it rather intensely amusing how people who will embrace the most horrible and grimdark ends for various characters never want it to happen to the ones they really like! Sanguinius has always exemplified the 'cover up' of the Imperium, a veneer of 'ends justifying the means', a golden glamour over the bloody truth. His recent Primarch book went whole-heartedly into that idea: that the truth of the Blood Angels was that they were always blood-mad berserkers, barely kept in line by the heavy-handed shame of their gene-sire. The tolerance of Sanguinius, the hope to wield a tainted power coming back to destroy the Emperor's dream, is very THEMES. The bargain he (allegedly) made on Molech coming due at last.

 

With Horus having been unpersoned over the Heresy, I definitely see 'death of a favoured son' or the Emperor's hesitation - if that's truly what happened - happening in relation to an 'I can fix him' Sanguinius, not a Horus he's already dismissed as nothing but a shade way back in Solar War.

 

Absolutely lmao at the possibility of three books, though. Having this much bloat and confusion at the (maybe!) end of your big capstone series is really kind of crazy.

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8 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

falling to, or willingly embracing, the Black Rage

He doesn’t have the black rage. Neither do the BA. They suffer from the Red Thirst. The Rage comes from his death so he can’t embrace it because it’s a genetic memory.

 

Him falling to the Flaw would be terrible for the story, and not grimdark. Just stupid “look at how we changed it!”

 

It is far more dark to have an understanding that they had actual hope that ultimately meant nothing. The actual hope is based on the reality of the Flaw, that there is actual darkness that taints but can be subdued. Were they barely controlled? Yes, but that’s the point. It is “proof” that man can actually overcome the thirst inside of him when there is one who guides and forms you. He gave them the means to overcome their nature, and take control of their faculties. It is dark because the one hope and proof of this embodiment of “salvation” was killed and deprived, and so over time they would descend back into the darkness with no one to help them. He embodied the very positive ideals of the GC, and so it is more fulfilling that the story maintains it to the end with Horus snuffing out the final golden ray of what man can accomplish.

 

Honestly I’m tired of people wanting to change that sort of stuff in the name of, “man wouldn’t this be DaRk”

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Sanguinius absolutely has the Black Rage. It goes backwards and forwards in time - or he might just have it in him all along. From Ruinstorm:

 

Quote

He remembered holding Mkani Kano, and not seeing the Librarian. He had seen Horus. He had not seen the bridge of the Red Tear. He had seen the Vengeful Spirit. From the abyssal depths of fury, he had sought vengeance for his death by changing time. He had been about to kill Kano, hallucinating him as the author of a crime yet to come.

 

Madail is pretty explicit that surrendering to that rage is the only way Sanguinius can beat Horus - and that doing so will deliver him right to Chaos. Well, he's probably not very trustworthy, but he's pretty certain that's the path he wants Sanguinius to choose to get the outcome Chaos wants. Good ol' Madail - gone too soon.

 

Personally, I would argue that Sanguinius losing himself to the Rage ties in extremely well to the themes of the Horus Heresy and, ultimately, what comes afterwards. The Legions suffering for the sins of their fathers. How they rise above them, how they continue to struggle with them, how they fail to overcome them. It adds weight to Abaddon's creation of the Black Legion and what he'd seen of how fallible the Primarchs were. Even the 'greatest son' wasn't perfect, because there was always something 'broken' within him -

 

Quote

The fate Sanguinius had declared he would accept unfolded again. Horus killed him again. This time, he looked on at his death from a remove. Even so, he felt the fatal blow. As he saw himself die, he witnessed the birth of the darkness. It was a howl of rage, summoned by betrayal, forged from that which was broken in his blood. 

 

- the bargain the Emperor made, or the things he couldn't (or wouldn't (or possibly engineered himself, if you want to take that view)) fix, is inescapable for his 'sons'. But there is hope for the future. Sanguinius may embrace the Rage, he might 'fall', because there was no other way to give hope to the future, that he would put his trust in his sons (and humanity, if you like) to do better, to be better. Sanguinius dies, yes, and dies in horror and agony, but he was always a sacrifice - just as much as Horus is named the Sacrificed King. What better martyr than an angel?

 

Consider the regicide motif. One way or another, every Primarch was made for sacrifice. 

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22 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Sanguinius absolutely has the Black Rage. It goes backwards and forwards in time - or he might just have it in him all along. From Ruinstorm:

No he doesn’t. All you showed from that excerpt is that he saw the future, which has been his lore for ages.

I don’t think you know what the Black Rage is.

 

22 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:
  Quote
Spoiler

The fate Sanguinius had declared he would accept unfolded again. Horus killed him again. This time, he looked on at his death from a remove. Even so, he felt the fatal blow. As he saw himself die, he witnessed the birth of the darkness. It was a howl of rage, summoned by betrayal, forged from that which was broken in his blood. 

 

And you just proved my point. It literally says he *witnessed* the birth of the rage *at his death*, not during the fight, not before it. He didn’t *feel* it, he *saw* it.


Also he lost to Horus, so the “only way to beat Horus is to submit to it” line would just be another mark to not turning.

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The Black Rage transports the Blood Angel (mentally) to the confrontation between Sanguinius and Horus on the Vengeful Spirit, no? They see others as the Arch-Traitor? Correct me if I'm wrong here, that's always been how I've known it/read it.

 

He was transported to the moment of his confrontation with Horus, saw an ally as Horus and was about to kill him. Those are all the symptoms of the Black Rage as I understand it. But again - by no means an expert, and happy to be corrected.

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10 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

The Black Rage transports the Blood Angel (mentally) to the confrontation between Sanguinius and Horus on the Vengeful Spirit, no? They see others as the Arch-Traitor? Correct me if I'm wrong here, that's always been how I've known it/read it.


Not just to the VS, but at any point of the final battle, but it’s a *memory* and subsumes their personality.
 

Sanguinius saw it like he sees the future in all cases, which comes at any time. 
 

The difference is in the principle of direction, with Sanguinius (who was well established as being given glimpses of the future at random times) seeing forward, and the regular BA who experience the past (and losing their own personality). The Rage is the memory, literally psychicly imprinted into the gene seed from his death, and he witnessed that from his precognitive gift. Hence he can see the effect his death has, where the rage doesn’t allow one to see.

 

Notice that he witnessed his death as though he were removed from it. That’s not the rage. 

Edited by Arkangilos
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Respectfully, that sounds very much like splitting hairs.

 

Sanguinius is being transported to that final confrontation. He is not himself-as-of-Ruinstorm. He even undergoes physical changes, alike to what we'd see from the Death Company:

 

Quote

anguinius reared upright with a sudden jerk. His wings spread wide, pinions shaking with anger. His eyes glistened black. He turned to Kano, his face a perfect marble carving of rage. for an instant, he was indeed a statue, the nobility of his bearing transformed into the aspect of a predator.

Then his lips drew back over his fangs. Hatred consumed his features. The air around him cackled. Kano smelled burnt ozone. On instinct, he raised a defensive psychic shield. Sanguinius lunged but Kano was too slow. None of the Angel's sons would have been fast enough. Sanguinius seized him by the gorget and lifted him high. The Angel's jaw opened and closed as if straining to speak.

 

He's not seeing a vision, something happening within his mind or something he's distant from, he's being overtaken by the lethal fury of Sanguinius-as-of-then and about to kill an ally he's seeing as Horus. To clarify: my second quotation is not connected to the first. I feel it's pretty safe to show Sanguinius in the grip of the Black Rage, or something so close as to be no different. Considering how the book frames each Primarch's struggle with their own nature - Guilliman's logical mindset being Morton's Forked, the Lion's 'only I have the strength to make hard decisions' being driven to its logical extreme - I think the framing would position Sanguinius' struggle to be with the Black Rage (and, ultimately, what it means for his Legion down the road).

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35 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Respectfully, that sounds very much like splitting hairs.

 

Sanguinius is being transported to that final confrontation. He is not himself-as-of-Ruinstorm. He even undergoes physical changes, alike to what we'd see from the Death Company:

 

 

He's not seeing a vision, something happening within his mind or something he's distant from, he's being overtaken by the lethal fury of Sanguinius-as-of-then and about to kill an ally he's seeing as Horus. To clarify: my second quotation is not connected to the first. I feel it's pretty safe to show Sanguinius in the grip of the Black Rage, or something so close as to be no different. Considering how the book frames each Primarch's struggle with their own nature - Guilliman's logical mindset being Morton's Forked, the Lion's 'only I have the strength to make hard decisions' being driven to its logical extreme - I think the framing would position Sanguinius' struggle to be with the Black Rage (and, ultimately, what it means for his Legion down the road).

Even if he suffered from the rage at that moment (which I don’t believe), he overcame it by the siege of Terra. 

Edited by Arkangilos
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On 12/5/2022 at 4:56 AM, Scribe said:

 

This is the part, right here, that I just cannot wrap my head around.

“Bloat” would suggest that new ideas and plotlines are being added that were not already considered or dreamed of. That certainly happened during the HH series BUT I do not think that is the case with the climax. 

 

The need to have more SoT books than originally envisaged comes down to:

 

1) Oh dear author x forgot to cover plotline abc so we still need to close that off - over to you Dan

 

2) Oh dear when we planned out the 8 book SoT arc we hadn’t considered needing to also cover xyz - over to you Dan

 

3) Oh dear author x refused to include those subplots in their novel and we don’t now understand how character A arrives in situation B - over to you Dan 

 

Anyone who has ever worked on IT/Digital projects will recognise the difference between a waterfall approach and agile approach.

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The issue for me is that there's already been an excellent vehicle to cover a lot of these 'trailing ends': novellas.

 

There was apparently no issue wrapping up Sharrowkyn and friends in a novella, nor in 'bridging' Magnus over to the Siege proper (and simultaneously mopping up a loose Perpetual, slapping down Malcador for a good reason why he can't last on the Throne as long as intended, and reminding everybody that Vulkan's still around). Unless I miss my guess entirely, I assume that McNeill will eventually cover Arik Taranis in a novella as well (unless Abnett's got plans there, which seems unlikely). That was, I believe(d), the whole point of having the novellas: catching up and finishing off stories that didn't really have a place in the main books.

 

Hell, you've got a great way for authors to finish up with 'their' characters right there while freeing the main books to focus on the Siege proper (like Echoes). Basilio Fo should be a novella. Keeler and friends should be a novella - and indeed, it looks like that's where they're going to end up, along with Garro.

 

It's immensely frustrating because these aren't just foreseeable issues, they're issues we were pretty expressly told not to worry about. I still remember those very nice pictures of all the big BL authors chatting in that room, and promises about how much they communicate and how everybody's on the same page and how it's all going to come together. These were issues that were present in the Heresy series. These were issues that were present in Beast Arises. Years and years of the same problems, and here we are again, with - if I can be absolutely blunt - what appears to be shocking editorial mismanagement that has the finale transform into two books, and now into three. It shouldn't have been like this! Aieee!

 

Quote

I do not think that is the case with the climax. 

 

There is no world in which Erda was a long-considered, elegantly-designed and skilfully-deployed character designed to appear during the Siege.

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@wecanhaveallthree re novellas (and anthologies) totally agree! They COULD have planned out the SoT mini series from the start to be a certain number of novels, novellas and anthologies. They COULD have ensured there was a “critical path” or “golden thread” (of key plot points and character arcs) that MUST be covered in the novels with everything else “relegated” to other formats.

 

Heck that MIGHT have been the case BUT no plan survives contact with the enemy (or creative people/authors).

 

I still maintain two books for the climax (might be three but not confirmed so still speculation based on the cover art and passing comment from Abnett) is not “bloat” but mopping up/tying more neatly together items considered necessary and rightly/wrongly not wanting to be covered in other formats.

 

I also think placing this “issue” (a happy issue for some but concern for others) at the feet of Abnett is somewhat disingenuous of some posters. The “fault” lay with EVERYONE involved in the process. Each author and the editorial team.

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2 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

@wecanhaveallthree 

 

I still maintain two books for the climax (might be three but not confirmed so still speculation based on the cover art and passing comment from Abnett) is not “bloat” but mopping up/tying more neatly together items considered necessary and rightly/wrongly not wanting to be covered in other formats.

 

But the entire siege IS the climax to the HH series. And it got 8 Books. Can climaxes have their own climaxes? Just how inception does this rabbit whole go?  You say they needed 2-3 books to sort it all out, they gave themselves 8!

 

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33 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

But the entire siege IS the climax to the HH series. And it got 8 Books. Can climaxes have their own climaxes? Just how inception does this rabbit whole go?  You say they needed 2-3 books to sort it all out, they gave themselves 8!

 

3 act structure with each act using a 3 act structure ad infinitum 

 

I am not defending it or saying it is right or that with hindsight the whole of the HH could have been executed better. But it is what it is so let’s see what we get.

 

Apart from the cost (which I totally get), the only reasons I can see for complaint is “wah I prefer the old lore from a short story and card game” and “wah I am worn out and just want this to end already” and “wah I do not like Abnett it shouldn’t be him as he will mess it up” in other words entirely subjective.

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5 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Anyone who has ever worked on IT/Digital projects will recognise the difference between a waterfall approach and agile approach.

 

Amusing, I see your point. It's an agile approach,  and just like in software, agile remains poor in implementation. 

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5 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

3 act structure with each act using a 3 act structure ad infinitum 

 

I am not defending it or saying it is right or that with hindsight the whole of the HH could have been executed better. But it is what it is so let’s see what we get.

 


So three badly incomplete books if they are just acts of a larger story then? By the definition of the structure. Thats somehow worse than just building it as a trilogy.

You may not think you are but you are defending this, and fairly obnoxiously in places, some of us just want the ending we were promised, not stretched out for another year so Black Library can pad out their sales graphs a bit.

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Is it really so wrong to want what Black Library promised the series would be? They went into this promising “hey, we learned our lessons from the Heresy, this new series is going to be tightly controlled and stick to a tight plan”, only right at the end to say “lol nope, the last book is definitely two, maybe three, who can really say for sure?”

 

As for condescending portrayals of why people might not like this, you could also say that the only reason TO like it is “yay Daddy Abnett write more book!”

I’d been hesitant about Abnett finishing the series before, given a whole lot of his books end with him suddenly realizing he needs to finish things, so inserts a short “oh yeah, then we won and things were good for now”, always feeling rushed. 

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