Changes to the Horus Heresy Fluff - The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

These Traitors would receive more power and more Daemonic reinforcements with their First Atrocity. Each new atrocity makes them more powerful, creates MORE Daemons and rallies more Traitors under their banner. This INCENTIVIZES them AND OTHERS to commit more massacres much quicker

 

Except that is not how it works, in fact it is quite the opposite. Chaos is like a narcotic, the first hit gives a boost of power and the users feel like they are wielding the power of the gods. But each subsequent time it is harder and harder to reach the same high. That is why Chaos worshippers are driven to ever greater acts of excess. They are not creating a feedback loop, the emotional energy required for Chaos to manifest in the material realm requires exponentially greater effort, the longer it goes on.

 

This is a recurring theme throughout the HH series. Chaos is not simply an escalator to power. It is a literal deal with the devil that steadily consumes the soul and will of the mortals involved until they become nothing more than expressions of obsession. You can see this in several cases such as the fall of the Emperor's Children. Fulgrim gets so bored on the road to daemonhood that he starts tempting people like Lucius and Fabius into taking him out, just to relieve the tedium. Horus gives himself to the gods, body and soul and return is reduced to little more than a meat-puppet for Chaos by the time of the Siege.

 

If Chaos worked the way you imply, the Heresy would have been a quick victory for the traitors. In fact it is unlikely that humanity would ever have evolved out of the Stone Age. You have to understand the fundamental point of Chaos is that it consumes the wielder. The Traitors can't simply keep ramping up the atrocities until they win as they are literally burning themselves up in what they have already unleashed.

[cheywood]

2 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Except that is not how it works, in fact it is quite the opposite. Chaos is like a narcotic, the first hit gives a boost of power and the users feel like they are wielding the power of the gods. But each subsequent time it is harder and harder to reach the same high. That is why Chaos worshippers are driven to ever greater acts of excess. They are not creating a feedback loop, the emotional energy required for Chaos to manifest in the material realm requires exponentially greater effort, the longer it goes on.

 

This is a recurring theme throughout the HH series. Chaos is not simply an escalator to power. It is a literal deal with the devil that steadily consumes the soul and will of the mortals involved until they become nothing more than expressions of obsession. You can see this in several cases such as the fall of the Emperor's Children. Fulgrim gets so bored on the road to daemonhood that he starts tempting people like Lucius and Fabius into taking him out, just to relieve the tedium. Horus gives himself to the gods, body and soul and return is reduced to little more than a meat-puppet for Chaos by the time of the Siege.

 

If Chaos worked the way you imply, the Heresy would have been a quick victory for the traitors. In fact it is unlikely that humanity would ever have evolved out of the Stone Age. You have to understand the fundamental point of Chaos is that it consumes the wielder. The Traitors can't simply keep ramping up the atrocities until they win as they are literally burning themselves up in what they have already unleashed.

Moonreaper really doesn’t care that he’s wrong unfortunately. You’re not going to win this argument. He’ll just keep responding, like a battering ram of willful misconception. 

[System Sound]

5 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

EVERY THREAD

We all need to do better and ignore this chaos jerking fanfics already... Since he's still allowed in here, because "technically" he's not doing anything wrong.

Edited January 24, 2023 by System Sound

[TwinOcted]

17 minutes ago, System Sound said:

We all need to do better and ignore this chaos jerking fanfics already... Since he's still allowed in here, because "technically" he's not doing anything wrong and sadly we don't have a block user option...

Stick them on Ignore.  It's easy and you'll be a lot happier.

[Lord_Caerolion]

16 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

snip

Me: Moonreaper fundamentally misunderstands Chaos and the setting as a whole, and also judges both books and settings on arbitrary kill-counts. 
 

Moonreaper: YOU UNDERESTIMATE MY POWER!

[Roomsky]

Soooo...

 

Anyone want to discuss changes that have actually occurred? 

[Bobss]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:02 PM, Roomsky said:

Soooo...

 

Anyone want to discuss changes that have actually occurred? 

 

[Roomsky]

Well, I mostly agree. King's story had the intervening Terminator, which despite it all I think is much sillier than the lone guardsman. But IIRC King's also had Horus snapping Sanguinius' neck effortlessly, which I will always think is the better version, whatever epic clash may come.

[Karhedron]

I think King's version didn't show the confrontation between Horus and Saguinius IIRC. It had the Emperor enter Horus sanctum and find Sanguinius already dead.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Horus being a complete non-entity as opposed to, well, anything is probably the biggest change, while we're on the subject.

 

Being literally ignored by the Emperor and shovelled off to do high order metaphorical psychic battle in the background isn't helping, either, and neither was his bug-eyed insanity in Echoes of Eternity. This is a drum I'm sure we've all banged at one point or another, but goddamn, Abnett is going to have to pull several Titans out of a hat to make me do anything but give Horus the side-eye for the entire final confrontation. God, but I fumed to see crazy old man Horus in Echoes. Give me back Wolfsbane!Horus, please! 'Chaos-burns-every-galaxy-for-eternity' Horus, 'The-Emperor-is-a-tyrant-but-I've-become-even-worse' Horus, hopeless Horus losing what's left of his soul as he's drawn inescapably down to destruction in a fate that he could never escape. Cursed Horus, the Sacrificed King. Not flippin' Theoden IN SPACE.

[Roomsky]

I think this line of discussion is appropriate, since Horus having much of a personality at all may as well be a change, for all the fleshing out he's gotten. I actually like crazy old man Horus, as I've always been pretty attached to "until the Chaos gods fled, Horus wasn't Horus."

 

Regarding his being a prop, Abnett defined Horus as a character in a single book, and he wasn't even the protagonist. Now that he's writing a whole closing trilogy (or more,) I think he has more than ample time to correct his characterization, if that is indeed the goal. I'm also hoping intensely he gets to keep his final moment of clarity before annihilation as in the old days considering how effective it was for like, half a page in Wolfsbane.

 

Should Horus have gotten more screentime in his Heresy? Yes, 100%, but I don't think we're quite at "too little, too late." For many of us, ADB saved Sanguinius in a single novel. Abnett's got three (or more.)

[drooling blood]

The longer they drag this out. The more im starting to side with moonreaper

Hey guy, were khaos, were next to useless every time we are written about.

But look out, were crushing the Imperium, somehow.

Lets just use the exact same method of slaying for 3 novels.

At this stage I half expect Sangy to stab Horus, Horus to drag himself onto the blade, kill Sangy, Then theyll repeat it again with Horus and the Emp.

Though better not give them any ideas.....

[bluntblade]

On 1/27/2023 at 6:52 PM, Roomsky said:

I think this line of discussion is appropriate, since Horus having much of a personality at all may as well be a change, for all the fleshing out he's gotten. I actually like crazy old man Horus, as I've always been pretty attached to "until the Chaos gods fled, Horus wasn't Horus."

 

Regarding his being a prop, Abnett defined Horus as a character in a single book, and he wasn't even the protagonist. Now that he's writing a whole closing trilogy (or more,) I think he has more than ample time to correct his characterization, if that is indeed the goal. I'm also hoping intensely he gets to keep his final moment of clarity before annihilation as in the old days considering how effective it was for like, half a page in Wolfsbane.

 

Should Horus have gotten more screentime in his Heresy? Yes, 100%, but I don't think we're quite at "too little, too late." For many of us, ADB saved Sanguinius in a single novel. Abnett's got three (or more.)

I think my favourite depiction of heretic Horus is the little glimpse we get in Path of Heaven. That terrible majesty and grandeur he has there.

 

French writes him well too, but he's only been able to grab that wheel for short snatches too.

[Fedor]

I liked his showing in Swallow's Gunsight. Somewhat grandiose, but also a nice foreboding atmosphere, and it was a good early depiction of the entirely different level of power he was now soaked in.

 

A lot better than something like Haley just having him be a doped up brawler when fighting Russ.

 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Fedor

[bluntblade]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:12 PM, Fedor said:

I liked his showing in Swallow's Gunsight. Somewhat grandiose, but also a nice foreboding atmosphere, and it was a good early depiction of the entirely different level of power he was now soaked in.

 

A lot better than something like Haley just having him be a doped up brawler when fighting Russ.

 

I still maintain that, if we had to go that route, Russ should've taken him on at Beta-Garmon and just about got the stab in in return for being pulverised by Horus. And let him orchestrate that part of the battle to make it possible.

[grailkeeper]

Not sure if this is the right thread but a missed opportunity was to have a prominent non-pysker thousand son. Someone who would eventually die in the rubric and whose death would make the rubric really meaningful.

 

ADB has a good track record of writing marines who go against their legion's stereotype- the night lord apothecary or the world eater devastator spring to mind. They helped give their legion more depth. Many legions are accused of being a bit one dimensional but I cant think of a single a thousand son who wasn't a scholar sourceror. (Mind you I can't think of too many thousand sons so I am open to correction. They seem not to have been very prominent outside their two major books.) A thousand son who was a blunt soldier in a legion of esoteric swots would have been pretty interesting l think.

Edited May 27, 2023 by grailkeeper

[Moonreaper666]

3 hours ago, grailkeeper said:

Not sure if this is the right thread but a missed opportunity was to have a prominent non-pysker thousand son. Someone who would eventually die in the rubric and whose death would make the rubric really meaningful.

 

ADB has a good track record of writing marines who go against their legion's stereotype- the night lord apothecary or the world eater devastator spring to mind. They helped give their legion more depth. Many legions are accused of being a bit one dimensional but I cant think of a single a thousand son who wasn't a scholar sourceror. (Mind you I can't think of too many thousand sons so I am open to correction. They seem not to have been very prominent outside their two major books.) A thousand son who was a blunt soldier in a legion of esoteric swots would have been pretty interesting l think.

 

Sanakht the swordsman. Hathor? the one who spent TOO MUCH time with the Emperor's Children

[SkimaskMohawk]

28 minutes ago, Moonreaper666 said:

 

Sanakht the swordsman. Hathor? the one who spent TOO MUCH time with the Emperor's Children

 

Both very much still part of the standard archetype of scholar-sorceror though. Sanakhts arc in French's 40k novels is dealing with his lack of powers post-rubric and not feeling as valued as his peers any more; Hathor matt was a company captain and magister of the pavoni lol.

[Arkangilos]

I could be wrong, but weren’t practically all somewhat psychic, and it was just the weaker ones became the rubrics? 

[Rain]

On 1/24/2023 at 6:35 AM, Karhedron said:

 

Except that is not how it works, in fact it is quite the opposite. Chaos is like a narcotic, the first hit gives a boost of power and the users feel like they are wielding the power of the gods. But each subsequent time it is harder and harder to reach the same high. That is why Chaos worshippers are driven to ever greater acts of excess. They are not creating a feedback loop, the emotional energy required for Chaos to manifest in the material realm requires exponentially greater effort, the longer it goes on.

 

This is a recurring theme throughout the HH series. Chaos is not simply an escalator to power. It is a literal deal with the devil that steadily consumes the soul and will of the mortals involved until they become nothing more than expressions of obsession. You can see this in several cases such as the fall of the Emperor's Children. Fulgrim gets so bored on the road to daemonhood that he starts tempting people like Lucius and Fabius into taking him out, just to relieve the tedium. Horus gives himself to the gods, body and soul and return is reduced to little more than a meat-puppet for Chaos by the time of the Siege.

 

If Chaos worked the way you imply, the Heresy would have been a quick victory for the traitors. In fact it is unlikely that humanity would ever have evolved out of the Stone Age. You have to understand the fundamental point of Chaos is that it consumes the wielder. The Traitors can't simply keep ramping up the atrocities until they win as they are literally burning themselves up in what they have already unleashed.

The drug analogy is apt, but incomplete. The key thing to realize about Chaos is that what is good for the Gods, is not necessarily good for the followers. Horus would have done well to realize this, as would players discussing lore about “Chaos.” Drugs are inanimate chemicals with no goals or drives of their own; this is not true for the Chaos Gods.

 

The Chaos Gods are essentially metaphysical parasites on the physical world. They feed on strong emotion, and on the acts that such emotion drives. Chaos followers/champions are hosts for the “parasite” that is the Gods, feeding the Gods with both their thoughts and actions. However, the Gods do empower their champions, not for the champions’ own benefit, but to make said champions a better agent of the God(s) in question, and better able to feed the God(s) through thought and action. This is why Chaos empowerment always comes with an erosion of free will. That’s the trade. You do get power, but it is not *your* power. In fact you stop being you. You are an agent, a feeding appendage of a greater power.

 

Lords of Silence, besides being a very well written book, does a great job of portraying this. The Death Guard are extremely difficult to kill, inured to pain, and their armor is alive and self-regenerating. But they are all slowly descending into a mental fog of torpor, and the further one descends, the more one wants to “share” this state with the rest of the galaxy.

 

That said, Chaos Champions are formidable foes in combat, and I think that some of the griping at certain HH portrayals of traitors as imbeciles that get massacred is justified. They aren’t LOTR Orcs, they are still Astartes, and ones further empowered by a malign metaphysical force. Their weakness is internal, it’s their loss of free will, and of personal purpose being replaced by an external compulsion, but it doesn’t make them idiot cartoon villains to be gunned down by a quipping hero. The book in question will then say that it was a costly battle for the loyalists, and oh no, the loyalists are being pushed back on every front, but what it shows is the loyalists killing traitors and dropping one liners like the heroes in an 80’s movie.
 

So, when this happens, Chaos fans are justifiably annoyed, as all fans should be, frankly. Chaos Marines should be a credible threat. Threatening antagonists make for good fiction. That doesn’t mean that “Chaos is right” or preferable or whatever. It is a basic element of giving a struggle pathos that the force being struggled against should be formidable.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Rain
Cleaning up rambling phone post.