How are you liking Reactions? What would you change?

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Please enlighten me as to how I can pin a unit to negate Interceptor? Other than pinning it in a reaction? 

 

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

Unless you lather on the pinning its still far from reliable against typically high LD marines though, especially as it typically involves shooting the target, which is inviting the very reaction it might be looking to stop?

Except Telepathy psykers ofc, as previously mentioned i would like everyone to hinge all plans on psykers for reasons :P 

 

Yea you basically need a high amount of snipers or flame round rapiers to force the tests on turn 1 to disrupt any intercepts for your turn 2 reserves. But that's only against stuff that can be pinned; dreads, vehicles, and cavalry all auto-pass, and the first two can take the helical on some solid platforms.

 

Of course that jump pack psyker can ruin even those units' plans, but you better be sure that your opponent  will either try to deny LoS to him, or gun him down before your turn 2 hits,

[Brofist]

On 10/7/2022 at 2:19 PM, TheNineteenth said:

Having just played a 5 round event, I must agree on this point.

I fear Anuj and his team have re-created the 6th/7th ed mess of over-powered Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures with the Dreadnaught unit type and all of the rules it ignores (for Vehicles and other-wound having things).

 

Man, it's not like they had to even look that far. People didn't like playing against all Castellax armies in early 1.0. Somehow the design crew managed to make a unit that's even better and even easier to spam. Anuj is old news at this point, but honestly his legacy is like 30k's Crudace.

[Gorgoff]

4 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Unless you lather on the pinning its still far from reliable against typically high LD marines though,

That's the part where the shooting player must make the right decision and not just randomly to pin units. 

[MARK0SIAN]

People talk about pinning and baiting reactions as counters as if those two things are not primarily based on luck. You’ve got to get lucky that they fail the pinning check or you have to get lucky that they take the bait on their reactions. Something like interceptor is also just too freely available to make pinning a viable counter. To me, This idea that you should also have to build your list around dealing with reactions indicates they’re out of proportion in terms of their effects on the game. 
 

At bare minimum, all reactions should require a leadership check before you can carry them out but I think a harsher cost is also warranted.

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

At bare minimum, all reactions should require a leadership check before you can carry them out but I think a harsher cost is also warranted.

 

Weird how hold the line is the only one that warrants it according to the rules writers.

[MARK0SIAN]

25 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Weird how hold the line is the only one that warrants it according to the rules writers.

Yeah, it’s not like that one is a lot stronger than the others or anything so it’s a bit weird!

[Dont-Be-Haten]

7 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

People talk about pinning and baiting reactions as counters as if those two things are not primarily based on luck. You’ve got to get lucky that they fail the pinning check or you have to get lucky that they take the bait on their reactions. Something like interceptor is also just too freely available to make pinning a viable counter. To me, This idea that you should also have to build your list around dealing with reactions indicates they’re out of proportion in terms of their effects on the game. 
 

At bare minimum, all reactions should require a leadership check before you can carry them out but I think a harsher cost is also warranted.

 

I agree with @Gorgoff you need to know what your target priorities are. Like it's going to be rare to Pin World Eaters in Berseker's Assault because they are Ld 10 for pinning tests. Calvary heavy lists and dread heavy lists ignore pinning pretty much all together. So bringing a Telepathy librarian is never a bad option. Though I think both of those options are superior to a deep strike heavy lists anyway. I think with how much of a staple the Master of Signals has become in so many armies, deepstriking more than 1-2 units is a recipe for disaster. Just remember to acknowledge your Disruptor Array is still active or not if you also bring one, though it's probably best -not- to bring one. (Looking at you Sons of Horus and your shoe-horned MoS inclusion)

 

I also think knowing when to bring in your deepstrike is an important counter. So if you're not set up...i.e. engaging certain units and pinning others bring them in Turn 3-4. It's never good tactics to hedge (also read rely) the majority of your army on deepstriking anyway, unless you're bringing Drop Pods.

 

Edit: on the hold the line LD check, I believe it's because it lasts until the end of the Assault Phase, so if multiple units charge in they are all counted as Disordered.

Edited October 12, 2022 by Dont-Be-Haten
Adding thoughts on Hold the Line

[Stitch5000]

1 hour ago, MARK0SIAN said:

Yeah, it’s not like that one is a lot stronger than the others or anything so it’s a bit weird!

The other Reactions, with the exclusion of the Movement ones, require dice rolls to determine the effectiveness of. 

Shooting attacks in Return Fire still have to roll to hit and wound etc etc.

[SkimaskMohawk]

29 minutes ago, Stitch5000 said:

The other Reactions, with the exclusion of the Movement ones, require dice rolls to determine the effectiveness of. 

Shooting attacks in Return Fire still have to roll to hit and wound etc etc.

Getting access to those rolls is the benefit of the reaction; the out-of-phase rolling of the dice is the end, not the means.

 

Look at those movement phase ones as well; no "restrictive" dice rolling and you can just melt through terrain with them and get out of LoS, or embark.

[Gorgoff]

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Getting access to those rolls is the benefit of the reaction; the out-of-phase rolling of the dice is the end, not the means.

 

Sorr of, yes, but he is still right. You have to hit, to wound etc and if you'd have to role for leadership before that it would be a lot worse. I know that you wish reactions being so bad that they don't impact the game, but the whole game and a lot of stats are now build around this core mechanic. Making it crap would cause massive damage to the whole. 

I also assume that you don't realize it but without interception being largely available deep striking terminators would be a massive problem for most armies. Same with effective close combat units flanking and other stuff.

 

3 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Look at those movement phase ones as well; no "restrictive" dice rolling and you can just melt through terrain with them and get out of LoS, or embark.

Speaking of.

Does difficult terrain reduce the movement here? I always play it this way which means most of the time it is only 2".

 

4 hours ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

 

I agree with @Gorgoff you need to know what your target priorities are. Like it's going to be rare to Pin World Eaters in Berseker's Assault because they are Ld 10 for pinning tests. Calvary heavy lists and dread heavy lists ignore pinning pretty much all together. So bringing a Telepathy librarian is never a bad option. Though I think both of those options are superior to a deep strike heavy lists anyway. I think with how much of a staple the Master of Signals has become in so many armies, deepstriking more than 1-2 units is a recipe for disaster.

Snip

Exactly. You have to see what is an effective combination and what isn't. 

Basic level of understanding is something like adding a Herald to a DS unit to make it harder to pass leadership tests against pinning. I don't see it very often that people, who use lots of DS have a Herald in their armies.

That's skill. You have to acknowledge the usefulness and implement it to your army. 

 

12 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

People talk about pinning and baiting reactions as counters as if those two things are not primarily based on luck.

 

Must be because both are and are not.

First of all pinning. Not be hated already pointed out what I meant. Of course it is still a dice role and nowhere near a given that a unit fails here.

Which is good.

But you can do quite a lot to max your chances here.

I already mentioned the Herald, DBH pointed to the correct choice of targets. 

All decisions players can get right and wrong. 

Skill based.

 

Same with Deception. 

Of course that is a skill.

Not everyone can sell :cuss:ed up cars for a reason. ;)

You have to know how to do that and your opponent has be aware of this kind of shenanigans as well. 

It goes both ways.

12 hours ago, MARK0SIAN said:

This idea that you should also have to build your list around dealing with reactions indicates they’re out of proportion in terms of their effects on the game. 

You have to prepare to kill vehicles, infantry and dreadnoughts as well. That's just regular list building processes. But instead of only thinking of these you have to think about reactions as well. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Gorgoff

[SkimaskMohawk]

8 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

I know that you don't realise it but without interception being largely available deep striking terminators would be a massive problem for most armies.

I do realise that wholesale axing interceptor would leave deepstrike in a pretty strong spot (if no one brought a master of signal). It's pretty obvious why they priced the scanners so cheap and made it so widely available (as well as HTA); they were terrified of deepstrike assault.

 

8 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Sorr of, yes, but he is still right. You have to hit, to wound etc and if you'd have to role for leadership before that it would be a lot worse.

Well, ya, the point is to make them worse. Not irrelevant or non-functional, but less strong than they currently are by making them not absolutely free to use. The argument that the shooting reactions are curtailed by the nature of dice being rolled in a free shooting sequence is a bit...much; you don't tell your opponent "at least I had to roll to hit and wound you" after your tyrants or havocs  blast them in your shooting phase.

 

Regardless of that, if LD did impact the other reactions, it wouldn't make them " a lot worse". A skilled player would take a herald in the middle of his gunline, maybe on the unit of tyrants from the above example, and just make the interceptors Ld 10. I mean they already can do that to mitigate the pinning from the DSA and act as a source of fear to juice any pinning of your own, but ya, it just makes reactions not a free, automatic, bonus.

 

Quote

but the whole game and a lot of stats are now build around this core mechanic. Making it crap would cause massive damage to the whole.

 

Mechanics were twisted to fit reactions, but we know none of the stats or points were re-tuned for reactions. Tacs are 10ppm in 1st and they're 10 ppm in 2nd. Tyrants went up 5 ppm, but was that due to the extra wound? Reroll armour vs blast? +1 str against big things? Flakk missiles? Being able to overwatch? The increased benefits to ignoring night fight? Access to reactions?

 

8 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Same with effective close combat units flanking. 

I mean, interceptor is actually the least of flanking assaults problems lol. The fact they can box your emergence point with one unit to waste/kill it (need a faq on whether subsequent turns changes it to players edge instead) is more than enough. Or that the initial unit can be disrupted unlike DSA. Or that it only pressures area close to the token. It's got a lot of problems lol.

 

8 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

Does difficult terrain reduce the movement here? I always play it this way which means most of the time it is only 2".

 

It doesn't; the difficult terrain modifier is placed on the movement characteristic, while the reactions (and consolidate and regroup iirc) use the initiative characteristic.

 

8 hours ago, Gorgoff said:

You have to prepare to kill vehicles, infantry and dreadnoughts as well.

Ehhh, having enough quality weapons to deal with multiple dreads actually covers you for the other two lol. Dreads are definitely disproportionate in how they impact list building.

Edited October 13, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[TheTrans]

Quick one with pinning to stop interceptor...  As Pinning turns off at the end of the Pinned Unit's Players following turn, meaning it turns off before the enemy movement phase, meaning you're free to intercept until your hearts content. 

The only way pinning can stop people intercepting is if the unit was pinned as part of a reaction..as it wouldn't then turn off until the end of the next turn. 

 

EG - Normal 'Just pin the unit bro' 'fix' for interceptor.

T1 - P1 Pins Unit X

T1 - P2 Can't do much with Unit X as Unit X is pinned

(End of P2 turn, Pinned turns back off)

T2- P1 Reserves Move on, Unit X intercepts as no longer pinned. 

 

So the only way to stop interceptor with Pinned would be
T1 - P1 what ever
T1 - P2 Unit X is Intecepted/Return Fired/Overwatched by Unit Y, and Pinned
(Normally Pinned Turns off here, but due to Pinned Turning off at the end of the FOLLOWING Owning Players turn, it doesn't get too as this is the current turn)

T2 - P1 Brings stuff on from reserve, Unit X cannot react.
T2 - Unit X Chills as is still pinned

(Pinned for unit X turns off here).

 

Would that be correct for those playing at home, so outside of a pinning check due to a DS assault or Fugue..there actually isn't any way to stop Interceptor.

Now sure, the big swing on DS assault is where they try to balance it...but again..poor old flyers or anything that is made to start in reserve is rough.   

[Dont-Be-Haten]

17 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Quick one with pinning to stop interceptor...  As Pinning turns off at the end of the Pinned Unit's Players following turn, meaning it turns off before the enemy movement phase, meaning you're free to intercept until your hearts content. 

The only way pinning can stop people intercepting is if the unit was pinned as part of a reaction..as it wouldn't then turn off until the end of the next turn. 

 

EG - Normal 'Just pin the unit bro' 'fix' for interceptor.

T1 - P1 Pins Unit X

T1 - P2 Can't do much with Unit X as Unit X is pinned

(End of P2 turn, Pinned turns back off)

T2- P1 Reserves Move on, Unit X intercepts as no longer pinned. 

 

So the only way to stop interceptor with Pinned would be
T1 - P1 what ever
T1 - P2 Unit X is Intecepted/Return Fired/Overwatched by Unit Y, and Pinned
(Normally Pinned Turns off here, but due to Pinned Turning off at the end of the FOLLOWING Owning Players turn, it doesn't get too as this is the current turn)

T2 - P1 Brings stuff on from reserve, Unit X cannot react.
T2 - Unit X Chills as is still pinned

(Pinned for unit X turns off here).

 

Would that be correct for those playing at home, so outside of a pinning check due to a DS assault or Fugue..there actually isn't any way to stop Interceptor.

Now sure, the big swing on DS assault is where they try to balance it...but again..poor old flyers or anything that is made to start in reserve is rough.   

I guess I just look at the bigger picture

 

You could always just engage a unit you don't want using interceptor....which completely shuts down interceptor all together. Then come in Turn 3-4. 

 

A cheap despoiler squads, a cheap recon squads sets up nice turn 2-3 charges and usually if something of interest needs to intercept...chances are it ain't doing much in melee.

[TheTrans]

42 minutes ago, Dont-Be-Haten said:

I guess I just look at the bigger picture

 

You could always just engage a unit you don't want using interceptor....which completely shuts down interceptor all together. Then come in Turn 3-4. 

 

A cheap despoiler squads, a cheap recon squads sets up nice turn 2-3 charges and usually if something of interest needs to intercept...chances are it ain't doing much in melee.

Come on man, that amounts to 'just shoot it off the board and it won't be a problem' hardly an answer to the interceptor issue. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

38 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Come on man, that amounts to 'just shoot it off the board and it won't be a problem' hardly an answer to the interceptor issue. 

I mean take it how you want. There's literally a plethora of ways and tactics/strategies on how to ignore or deal with interceptor. It's your own decision on how you take the advice given to you or not.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ah yes, to prevent your deepstrikers from being intercepted before they can charge in, you should try and delay their deepstrike and tie up those intercepting units in combat. Does that not seem backwards somehow? Assault units via a traditional ground assault so your DSA can...charge...them? Why not just cut out the middle man and just trudge them up the board? Especially if the plan hinges on delaying the DSA to tie stuff up properly, which in of itself needs a Proteus with the explorator web to make it more more likely than...not.

 

Like ya, obviously you don't want to bet your strategy on DSA if you want long term success in 2nd; 1 or 2 units can give pressure without putting all the eggs in one basket. But, some legions really push it all the same; BA, NL, IF, and SoH, with RG and AL being only encouraged. Sucks to have an archetype bound into a warlord or rite just be completely invalidated, and the now footslogging units points be inflated as a result. Basically the same as what happened to people who had lots of bikes. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Valkyrion]

I honestly think the strength of reactions is 100% deliberate, intended, read as written and all of those things, in order to make 30k a distinct and more interactive two player game than AoS or 40k, and I think it's a good thing.

If you don't plan for the enemy reacting to your plans then your plans will fail - no doubt Sun Tzu had something to say about that!

 

If you go overboard on things to deal with Deep Strike then you will have a disadvantage against a mechanised or footslogging force, just like if you gear up for tank hunting you will suck at killing infantry, or if you go all in on Line units you will handicap yourself in the missions without objectives. There are hard counters to every thing, but there aren't hard counters to everything. 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

6 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

If you go overboard on things to deal with Deep Strike then you will have a disadvantage against a mechanised or footslogging force, just like if you gear up for tank hunting you will suck at killing infantry, or if you go all in on Line units you will handicap yourself in the missions without objectives. There are hard counters to every thing, but there aren't hard counters to everything

 

Not really. The issue that augury scanners and HTA create is that your force now doubles as anti-reserves. Those 10 las heavy support aren't less anti tank after spending another 10 points to give them free intercept. Similarly those 10 las with the scanner are only 285, and can punch through all the armour saves, multiple wounds, and stacked feel no pain of footsloggers to make them comparable to high rate of fire. Against marines, lascannons are the new plasma.

 

6 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

in order to make 30k a distinct and more interactive two player game than AoS or 40k, and I think it's a good thing.

 

Err, those games both have out of phase mechanics that are viewed as extremely strong. The only real difference is 30ks are confined to the opponents turn, while the others have application during your own.

 

6 hours ago, Valkyrion said:

If you don't plan for the enemy reacting to your plans then your plans will fail - no doubt Sun Tzu had something to say about that!

 

I think we're all at the point where we plan for it in both list building* and game play. Some of us just don't like the implementation of reactions and how they've skewed things.

 

*As much as you can if you want to do a deepstrike archetype.

[Dark Legionnare]

On 10/13/2022 at 11:34 AM, SkimaskMohawk said:

I think we're all at the point where we plan for it in both list building* and game play. Some of us just don't like the implementation of reactions and how they've skewed things.

 

*As much as you can if you want to do a deepstrike archetype.

Yeah, couldn't of said it better myself. 

I feel the worst for my buddy who plays bike-centric Scars as one of his armies. In our games, being nice, I avoid the scanners in bulk.

But the stories he's passed on of playing with shop-folks that aren't good buds wanting him to have a good time. Woof. (The example you mentioned of heavy weapon squads with LC's and a scanner pulling double duty as hard counters to his flanking, and vehicles, is something he's been on the receiving end of multiple times.)

The HARD U-turn in effectiveness he's been experiencing because of the prevalence of scanner-type free intercepts with no drawback has been heavily discouraging him from his most loved army. Of course, there are things he can change, do, etc... to mitigate the best he can, but the skew is so strong from the reactions that he feels he'd have to invest in getting units that are army-theme/style-breaking, and he doesn't own, to really have a GOOD chance to create things like pinning to happen.

(The bike toughness changes are still nonsensical to me , and hurt him a lot, but that's not here nor there in regards to reactions.)

[SkimaskMohawk]

54 minutes ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Yeah, couldn't of said it better myself. 

I feel the worst for my buddy who plays bike-centric Scars as one of his armies. In our games, being nice, I avoid the scanners in bulk.

But the stories he's passed on of playing with shop-folks that aren't good buds wanting him to have a good time. Woof. (The example you mentioned of heavy weapon squads with LC's and a scanner pulling double duty as hard counters to his flanking, and vehicles, is something he's been on the receiving end of multiple times.)

The HARD U-turn in effectiveness he's been experiencing because of the prevalence of scanner-type free intercepts with no drawback has been heavily discouraging him from his most loved army. Of course, there are things he can change, do, etc... to mitigate the best he can, but the skew is so strong from the reactions that he feels he'd have to invest in getting units that are army-theme/style-breaking, and he doesn't own, to really have a GOOD chance to create things like pinning to happen.

(The bike toughness changes are still nonsensical to me , and hurt him a lot, but that's not here nor there in regards to reactions.)

 

Yeah he sounds like a braver man than me. Outriders and outflank in the same list just seems like playing on hard mode, but if he really loved the style in 1st then its hard to stop. Especially if not building the list involves a few hundred more dollars to revamp it into something else; keeping it on-theme with jetbikes is basically a new mortgage unless you have a buddy with some good printing prices. 

 

One of the issues with the reactions and alternate deployment is that while just coming on and chilling out of Los is an option (and was really good in 1st with high movement units), they really discourage it in 2nd by forcing everything to come in at once, and from the same area. You might as well start the units on the board and try and maneuver for a turn 2 charge instead at that point. 

 

[Dark Legionnare]

22 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Yeah he sounds like a braver man than me. Outriders and outflank in the same list just seems like playing on hard mode, but if he really loved the style in 1st then its hard to stop. Especially if not building the list involves a few hundred more dollars to revamp it into something else; keeping it on-theme with jetbikes is basically a new mortgage unless you have a buddy with some good printing prices. 

 

One of the issues with the reactions and alternate deployment is that while just coming on and chilling out of Los is an option (and was really good in 1st with high movement units), they really discourage it in 2nd by forcing everything to come in at once, and from the same area. You might as well start the units on the board and try and maneuver for a turn 2 charge instead at that point. 

 

Yeah. He has plenty of the jetbikes, those are the ones he loves the most. Has 15 of the suckers. 

And that's about the conclusion he's come too as well, in regards to "Just be on the board I guess".  I have the same problem with my Luna Wolves. Do I want to spread out, flank, deepstrike multiple angles with planes, pods, outflank, etc....? Nope. Bunch up in a general area, all at once... rather annoying pigeon-holing of strategy/placement.

[MegaVolt87]

On 10/13/2022 at 1:23 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

Ah yes, to prevent your deepstrikers from being intercepted before they can charge in, you should try and delay their deepstrike and tie up those intercepting units in combat. Does that not seem backwards somehow? Assault units via a traditional ground assault so your DSA can...charge...them? Why not just cut out the middle man and just trudge them up the board? Especially if the plan hinges on delaying the DSA to tie stuff up properly, which in of itself needs a Proteus with the explorator web to make it more more likely than...not.

 

Like ya, obviously you don't want to bet your strategy on DSA if you want long term success in 2nd; 1 or 2 units can give pressure without putting all the eggs in one basket. But, some legions really push it all the same; BA, NL, IF, and SoH, with RG and AL being only encouraged. Sucks to have an archetype bound into a warlord or rite just be completely invalidated, and the now footslogging units points be inflated as a result. Basically the same as what happened to people who had lots of bikes. 

 

Actually, yes. Assault armies using deep strike units to further tip combats sounds about right to me. DS is most effective at bullying weak parts of a line ideally. If I was doing mass deep strike, I would be using cheap infantry and dreadnaughts to mitigate losses. Mass deep strike isn't for multiple mini legion specials deathstars, its for bulk cheap mass to setup other mass infantry and dreads. If you like using higher tier infantry, an all deep strike list isn't something to use for that in 2.0. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

 

Actually, yes. Assault armies using deep strike units to further tip combats sounds about right to me. DS is most effective at bullying weak parts of a line ideally. If I was doing mass deep strike, I would be using cheap infantry and dreadnaughts to mitigate losses. Mass deep strike isn't for multiple mini legion specials deathstars, its for bulk cheap mass to setup other mass infantry and dreads. If you like using higher tier infantry, an all deep strike list isn't something to use for that in 2.0. 

 

I feel like you're either misreading what I wrote, or I'm misreading what you wrote. 

 

My post was commenting on a strategy that proposed to have a turn 3 or 4 deepstrike and use that time to tie up the potential interceptor units with footsloggers. But if you can make it across the board, into combat, through the opponents turn and into your next one, then why not just footslog your deepstrikers in the first place? Especially since those intercepting units you're trying to tie up tend to be lynchpins anyways.

 

Your post reads as if you plan to lock with early chaf deepstrikers for your elite hard-hitting units, which is a sound enough strategy imo. I do disagree on deepstrike not being for elite units though; clearly more elite units have access to deepstrike than chaf ones (that being limited to assault marines and scimitars if you're generous). Some legions have all deep strike on all their elite units, or the ability to give them all deep strike via a rite or warlord trait; they're clearly meant to use deep strike on elite special units. Being unable to do so because of the strength of augury scanners means the ability is useless and they pay too many points.