Speculative Discussion El'Jonson rumoured to return: what do you expect will happen?

[Special Officer Doofy]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I wonder if we will see something like Angron returning and managing to beat-down Guilliman with the Lion cutting in at the last minute to save the day.

Angron: "Who is going to save you now brother?"

Johnson: "Me!"

Guilliman was already "beat-down" and "saved" at the last minute from Mortarion in the end of Godblight. This is coming from someone who doesn't care for Guilliman, but I don't think they need to turn him (or any primarch for that matter) into a damsel in distress.

Original source/discussion thread: https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/376121-rumoured-big-hqs-next-year/

Edited October 5, 2022 by Dosjetka
Added link.

[Special Officer Doofy]

22 minutes ago, Skywrath said:

Seriously with Johnson coming back, chaos will be quivering with fear - that is massive lore developments! And even before his name was synonymous with fear among the traitors, horus included. 

They weren't scared of him when he was playing second imperium and dealing with his own Legion's traitors, they are definately not scared of him after they all ascended and he took a long nap.

It will make for some cool stories though if true.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Special Officer Doofy

[Skywrath]

5 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

They weren't scared of him when he was playing second imperium and dealing with his own Legion's traitors, they are definately not scared of him after they all ascended and he took a long nap.

It will make for some cool stories though if true.

Is that so? I distinctly recall Horus making plans to keep Dark Angels and the Lion specifically busy during the events of the HH, so he wouldn't have to contend with him. If that doesn't imply fear, I don't know what does.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Skywrath

[Orange Knight]

21 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

The Lion returning... mixed feelings there. That would be a really massive lore development, bigger even than Guilliman returning. Guilliman was a big deal, but in the end just made the Ultramarines into the next level version of what they already were.

 

 

Guilliman is the Lord Regent, is in direct control of the Imperium, and is the one who ordered and orchestrated the reversal of the Imperium's technological and cultural decline.

With his authority, and Cawl's borderline heretical but also unquestionable genius, the Astartes have been improved, the weapons available to mankind's defenders have been pushed forward in terms of sophistication and effectiveness, not to mention the return of grav-tanks and the roll-out of new patters of star ships.

On top of all this, he has directly communicated with the Emperor and has a key role to play in the literal revival of the Master of Mankind, which is now underway... somehow.

 

I don't see what the Lion could do, lore wise, that would be more impactful. But hey, I would love for them to surprise me!

I don't want a repeat of the Horus Heresy, or a reversal of the progress the two brothers made in regards to their relationship, and mutual trust and respect.

I would love to see some more political intrigues, and the Lion's reaction to the way the Imperium slid into destitution and corruption of the Emperor's original vision.

Two great Primarchs are better than one in terms of the ability to steer the ship towards it's original vision.

[phandaal]

15 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Guilliman is the Lord Regent, is in direct control of the Imperium, and is the one who ordered and orchestrated the reversal of the Imperium's technological and cultural decline.

With his authority, and Cawl's borderline heretical but also unquestionable genius, the Astartes have been improved, the weapons available to mankind's defenders have been pushed forward in terms of sophistication and effectiveness, not to mention the return of grav-tanks and the roll-out of new patters of star ships.

On top of all this, he has directly communicated with the Emperor and has a key role to play in the literal revival of the Master of Mankind, which is now underway... somehow.

I don't see what the Lion could do, lore wise, that would be more impactful. But hey, I would love for them to surprise me!

Just pretend I also used fluffy words to describe what I think would happen to the Unforgiven and 40k as a whole if the Lion had to finish his mini Horus Heresy against Luther and the Fallen.

[Skywrath]

24 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Guilliman is the Lord Regent, is in direct control of the Imperium, and is the one who ordered and orchestrated the reversal of the Imperium's technological and cultural decline.

With his authority, and Cawl's borderline heretical but also unquestionable genius, the Astartes have been improved, the weapons available to mankind's defenders have been pushed forward in terms of sophistication and effectiveness, not to mention the return of grav-tanks and the roll-out of new patters of star ships.

On top of all this, he has directly communicated with the Emperor and has a key role to play in the literal revival of the Master of Mankind, which is now underway... somehow.

 

I don't see what the Lion could do, lore wise, that would be more impactful. But hey, I would love for them to surprise me!

I don't want a repeat of the Horus Heresy, or a reversal of the progress the two brothers made in regards to their relationship, and mutual trust and respect.

I would love to see some more political intrigues, and the Lion's reaction to the way the Imperium slid into destitution and corruption of the Emperor's original vision.

Two great Primarchs are better than one in terms of the ability to steer the ship towards it's original vision.

If I recall, Gulliman was the "administrator" of imperium Secundus and the Lion was it's lord defender? I could see them going back to that formula - i.e Gulliman preferring politics and willingly handing over the martial position to the Lion?

[Orange Knight]

[Brother Captain Arkley]

14 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Ah yes “The Lion is coming”

I guess he will be right at least olce

Need them clicks man.

But to echo others I really hope its not a new civil war. I can however see the Lion restoring his Legion (Hopefully removing Asmodai of that part of his body called his head).

 

[redmapa]

1 hour ago, tangoalphatwo said:

Along with The Lion being known to be alive lore wise… Russ, Khan, and Corax are in the warp. So they could return too. Any other Primarchs that could return? If even in say 10 years?

Vulkan can return and has a similar myth to Russ in regards to his return. Dorn and Khan are so MIA they might as well be dead imo though I would love to see Dorn return as a dreadnought.

[Redcomet]

29 minutes ago, fire golem said:

It would be weirder if he was right about the lion returning more than once…

I could see the Lion being a frequent napper 

15 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Need them clicks man.

But to echo others I really hope its not a new civil war. I can however see the Lion restoring his Legion (Hopefully removing Asmodai of that part of his body called his head).

 

 Agree. I don’t want to see more internal strife in the Imperium. I also don’t think wither Primarch would be dumb enough to put their own petty differences over the survival of humanity… well on second thought 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

8 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

I could see the Lion being a frequent napper 

 Agree. I don’t want to see more internal strife in the Imperium. I also don’t think wither Primarch would be dumb enough to put their own petty differences over the survival of humanity… well on second thought 

I have had enough of the DA traitors meme... And then coming into conflict yet again due to Imperium Secondus.

The last thing the Imperium needs is another civil war.

As for him napping... I would not be surprised if the Watchers are telling him.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Brother Captain Arkley

[Orange Knight]

14 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Hopefully they use this as an opportunity to cause some division and friction in the Imperium, and it doesn't take 10 novels to fix the lore they ruin. 

 

There's already a lot of this. There was a rebellion on Terra itself, with some high lords allowing the spread of Chaos cults to simply undermine the Primarch.

Any more and it would simply lead to a civil war. We don't want the Lion to be a traitor, proving all the memes correct.... or do we?

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

There's already a lot of this. There was a rebellion on Terra itself, with some high lords allowing the spread of Chaos cults to simply undermine the Primarch.

Any more and it would simply lead to a civil war. We don't want the Lion to be a traitor, proving all the memes correct.... or do we?

Rebellion,  already handled.

There should, logically,  knowing the setting be civil war just by Rob existing.

Add in the Lion? Yeah, let's go, Civil War.

[WARMASTER_]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Guilliman is the Lord Regent, is in direct control of the Imperium, and is the one who ordered and orchestrated the reversal of the Imperium's technological and cultural decline.

With his authority, and Cawl's borderline heretical but also unquestionable genius, the Astartes have been improved, the weapons available to mankind's defenders have been pushed forward in terms of sophistication and effectiveness, not to mention the return of grav-tanks and the roll-out of new patters of star ships.

On top of all this, he has directly communicated with the Emperor and has a key role to play in the literal revival of the Master of Mankind, which is now underway... somehow.

 

I don't see what the Lion could do, lore wise, that would be more impactful. But hey, I would love for them to surprise me!

I don't want a repeat of the Horus Heresy, or a reversal of the progress the two brothers made in regards to their relationship, and mutual trust and respect.

I would love to see some more political intrigues, and the Lion's reaction to the way the Imperium slid into destitution and corruption of the Emperor's original vision.

Two great Primarchs are better than one in terms of the ability to steer the ship towards it's original vision.

I can see the lions being super impactful, Not more so but on par… 

The way I see it Guilliman had to come back first to fit the new narrative, he’s the only one with the logistical skills to be able to reorganise terra’s bureaucracy and the half of the Imperium that’s still standing into a coercive crusade force 

But the lion is a conqueror and I think that’s how they’ll use him in lore, As the one who sets out to do the impossible and retake the half of the imperium that’s already fallen  

The dark angels have always been accused of legion building so we know he can literally just step into the position of leading all the unforgiven to war 

[Dosjetka]

=][= This thread was made up of various posts from another thread in the NR&BA to avoid protracted speculation and discussion there. Apologies for the resulting disjointedness. =][=

[Orange Knight]

28 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Rebellion,  already handled.

There should, logically,  knowing the setting be civil war just by Rob existing.

Add in the Lion? Yeah, let's go, Civil War.

 

So you want the Lion to be a heretic and a traitor? Anyone who weakens the Imperium during the current time period, with half of it's dominion lost beyond contact, would simply be serving it to Chaos as a result.

The main reason a civil war in the Imperium has been avoided is because Guilliman has the support of it's most powerful institution. The Imperial Church has declared him a saint and the son of the holy Emperor, and champions him across the Imperial domain. The whole thing is ironic, as he disdains the Church.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Orange Knight

[Triszin]

We'll get angron, fulgrim in the next 2 years.

 

Xenos will get 2-3 more primarch tier characters.

 

I expect to get 2 loyalist also.

 

I think it'll be a lesser popular primarch then either Russ or lion.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Corax would be out there... Given what he has turned into.

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

So you want the Lion to be a heretic and a traitor? Anyone who weakens the Imperium during the current time period, with half of it's dominion lost beyond contact, would simply be serving it to Chaos as a result.

The main reason a civil war in the Imperium has been avoided is because the Guilliman has the support of it's most powerful institution. The Imperial Church has declared him a saint and the son of the holy Emperor, and champions him across the Imperial domain. The whole thing is ironic, as he disdains the Church.

No, I want ambiguity,  internal dysfunction and the Imperium to be its own worst enemy. 

The Church declaring him a Saint is exactly what's wrong. Where is the schism?

Rob having issue is utterly irrelevant, as he isn't going to do anything about it. He's not going to declare them all as traitors to the Emperors vision, he's not going to tell them all that they are Lorgar v2. No, he's going to swallow his principles, and stand for the united Imperium. 

That's the whole problem with the new lore in a nutshell, and I pray to God that GW sets the Lion against this, not because he's a traitor.

But because he's actually loyal.

[Orange Knight]

Ok, but is the Lion stupid?

Given an immediate choice, with an outlook to the short to medium term, between defending an Imperium which has fallen far from the vision of the Emperor, but is still loyal to him, or instead causing a further dispute that potentially leads to the extinction of the human race and the certain fall of the Empire, which would the Lion chose?

Guilliman did not cause the church to rise. He was not around for the cultural stagnation or in charge when the Cadia fell. What problem would the Lion have with his brief leadership since his return? 

Guilliman has stabilised key planets, sent out a grand crusade, and re-enforced the Astartes. Which of these would be upsetting to the Lion?

 

[NovemberIX]

42 minutes ago, redmapa said:

Vulkan can return and has a similar myth to Russ in regards to his return. Dorn and Khan are so MIA they might as well be dead imo though I would love to see Dorn return as a dreadnought.

I half expect Dorn to be in Centurion armor...and maybe Corax in the frunk of an 08 Smart ForTwo...

Realistically, I'd expect DA and Wolves to get a Primarch before any of the other loyalists come back. Though watch us all be wrong and Sanguinius pops up.

 

[Emperor Ming]

He will just be a tool in the Emperors return like Girlyman

Somebody that can take the fight to the archenemy without needing to be saved every time might be helpful

 

[Orange Knight]

The great civil war debate in the Imperium isn't about Guilliman versus the Lion.

It should be more about Guilliman AND the Lion versus the Emperor.

 

The great irony of the 40k universe is that the Imperial Truth was a lie. The Primarchs, along with everyone else, were deceived. There ARE Gods, there IS magic.

The real question is, can the Primarchs ever forgive the Emperor. Should they? 

 

Apparently pieces are being moved into place that will lead to the awakening of the Emperor. That's the most spicy story, and I hope they see it through.

[phandaal]

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Primarchs, along with everyone else, were deceived. There ARE Gods, there IS magic.

This is inaccurate. The Lion especially was aware of the warp and other nasties in the galaxy, and he was still 100% committed to the Emperor.

If the Emperor goes Full Sigmar, the Lion would probably just say "okey doke" and keep on keeping on.

[Scribe]

31 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Guilliman has stabilised key planets, sent out a grand crusade, and re-enforced the Astartes. Which of these would be upsetting to the Lion?

That it's in service to, and perpetuating the lie of the Imperium, and the enslavement of the species to cultural and intellectual stagnation and ignorance. 

But yes, let's cheer for the ascension of the God Emperor of suffering, ignorance, and hate that's sure to be handled well.