Hopes and expectations for Marines in the new balance Dataslate and points updates.

[Medjugorje]

Hello,

 

in my WA group there was a "bait" with new points and I was finally very interested what could be. No new rules or changes to secoundaries or just point drops.

What do you expect for point drops?

Because there are rumors I dont think we will see great changes in terms of rules but a few point drops here and there (although I dont think it will be enough). 

What I really confused is if there can be changes to secoundaries because a few chapters have very big problems.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Sword Brother Adelard
Clearer title

[Khornestar]

I’d love it if outriders got a little points cut.

Most of us probably agree tanks/some other vehicles need cuts.

Primaris Sword Brethren: WS2+ and 3 wounds would be a dream come true.

[Marshal Reinhard]

48 minutes ago, Khornestar said:

I’d love it if outriders got a little points cut.

*cough*stand alone kit with cool options wouldn't hurt either*cough*

[DesuVult]

Imperial Fist chapter trait changed to add on that if all units in your army are Imperial Fist or Agents of The Imperium you may include 10% more points or pl at no cost.

 

Still wouldn't make us good but people would feel less bad for beating us.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There was a meta watch video released by geedub this morning and they said codex Space Marines will get some buffs.

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Lord_Ikka]

There are definitely some un/under-used units that would benefit from some points drops. SM tanks in general need some love, dropping them by 20-50 points would help bring some of them back into the limelight. I'm coming from a Primaris-only Ultra viewpoint (I do have Firstborn DA but am not running them right now), so units like Aggressors and Reivers could use point drops (and better rules) to get them on the table regularly. 

[Khornestar]

12 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

*cough*stand alone kit with cool options wouldn't hurt either*cough*

Oooooh yeah! That would be swell.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

An Ork killrig is like 160 points while an Impulsor with a multi melta is 130 points. That’s just crazy external unbalance. The killrig is T8 Sv 3+ 16W, is a psychic character, transport and hits like a tonne of lead in melee.

13 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

*cough*stand alone kit with cool options wouldn't hurt either*cough*

And a choice of power weapons for the sergeant plus up to six bikers per squad.

[Medjugorje]

Do you think that there will be just point drops or maybe new rules.

Like-1dmg or -1to wound for attacks with S<8 for SM vehicles. Expl. 6s for Bolters and a new CT for IF instead?

 

Imo - close to 80 percent of all units need point drops but especially Outriders, Impulsors, Reivers, all troops, all tanks.

[Lord_Ikka]

14 minutes ago, Medjugorje said:

Do you think that there will be just point drops or maybe new rules.

Well, points reductions don't tend to have issues in regard to creating possible rules-interactions. By this I mean while reducing a unit's points it effects mainly army composition, rather than what can happen with changing rules. As we've seen, something like AoC had some unintended consequences with factions like Salamanders, basically invalidating part of their chapter tactic until it was FAQ'd. So, points are a lot easier to modify than giving a unit/faction a whole new rule, which may interact with other rules or strats in ways that the rules designers didn't intend- given the large number of special rules inherent in a faction like SM already, simple points drop to move certain units into a more competitive bracket seems more likely than new rules. Doesn't mean that new rules won't happen, or that current rules won't be modified into something new (personally, I'd like Reivers to lose the Ld debuff and gain something like "Gain +1 to Wound against units with less than their starting number of models), just that I think for the majority of units all we will see is points mods. 

[redmapa]

I don't know how many more patches marines need to rise above 35%WR but I think everyone agrees that we are paying way too many points for certain things, like Troops being almost 20pts per model is crazy imo and tanks are just useless even considering a points drop. In terms of rules I think all the chapter doctrines need a buff, Templars need their Vow penalties removed and the rest rewritten, even IH aren't relying on theirs so buff them too. I doubt it will happen here because GW may want to update them in a campaign before 10th edition.

Necrons are an interesting comparison to SM, both have plenty of Core, Obsec and are bottom tier, now Necrons heavily rely on amazing secondaries and the Obsec dynasty so perhaps a combination of buffing some secondaries a bit and making troops worth their points by giving them the ability to always contest objectives regardless of enemy models would buff us in the same direction as Necrons just not quite as extreme as they got.

[Karhedron]

Relying on secondaries to tip the balance is unfair because it does not help with other modes of play. Even something as official as the Tempest of War cards.

[Medjugorje]

in general I think Marines have good rules, almost have very funny mechanics and of course many datasheets to choose from.

Their main problems are:

- secoundaries

- point costs

- rely on chapter: input / output / speed

 

I think a new book should fix them all but just to be more in balance it would be enough to make some units cheaper, especially the units which are playable for all MArines and could be an aquivalent or alternative to the typical played units like Sanguard, Vanguards, ...

 

Therefore the most important unit is the Impulsor which could help all type of units. All chapter could be improved and for Blood Angels which already are fast and stronger it could be an alternate thing. Make Impulsors -30 or -40 points and all Troops -1 point. 

[Malakithe]

Hot Take: Remove secondaries from the game

[Lord_Ikka]

32 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Hot Take: Remove secondaries from the game

Not really germane to the discussion, as that is something that would require an entire edition change, not balance update for a specific faction.

[Kallas]

My hope is that Land Raiders get T9 and Godhammer (d6+2) Lascannons. If we get that, I'll be happy 

[BrainFireBob]

My 2 cents: Same Pred and LR upgrades Chaos got

[Emperor Ming]

Not sure points will change until the next warzone book, aka January 

Marines deffo needs pts drops

Marines having a constant low winrate, it just bugs me considering how good they are supposed to be in the lore

 

 

[Tokugawa]

obsec (maybe conditionally) on BGV and other "veteran" units.

[Medjugorje]

On 10/8/2022 at 12:18 PM, Malakithe said:

Hot Take: Remove secondaries from the game

That must be in Chapter Aproved - not in a data slate I think. 

13 hours ago, Tokugawa said:

obsec (maybe conditionally) on BGV and other "veteran" units.

we already have that per Strat (BT) or WL-Trait (SM)

[The Emperors Champion22]

On 10/7/2022 at 10:32 AM, Medjugorje said:

in general I think Marines have good rules, almost have very funny mechanics and of course many datasheets to choose from.

Their main problems are:

- secoundaries

- point costs

- rely on chapter: input / output / speed

 

I think a new book should fix them all but just to be more in balance it would be enough to make some units cheaper, especially the units which are playable for all MArines and could be an aquivalent or alternative to the typical played units like Sanguard, Vanguards, ...

 

Therefore the most important unit is the Impulsor which could help all type of units. All chapter could be improved and for Blood Angels which already are fast and stronger it could be an alternate thing. Make Impulsors -30 or -40 points and all Troops -1 point. 

assault intercessors should go down by 3-4 ppm at least. Just compare them to basic legionaries. The a.int have -1 attack and -1 ld, nor do they have access to any of the icons or special weapons, or flexibility of the legionaries.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

19 minutes ago, The Emperors Champion22 said:

assault intercessors should go down by 3-4 ppm at least. Just compare them to basic legionaries. The a.int have -1 attack and -1 ld, nor do they have access to any of the icons or special weapons, or flexibility of the legionaries.

Waitwaitwait...Loyalists are jealous of Chaos now?  Is it opposite day?  :-)

 

In all honesty though, the attack differential is likely to go away -- Chaos got the attack stat bump while having the +1A on charge/charged/intervention removed.  I am fairly certain that same change will flow down to Loyalists.

[DesuVult]

Make everything core, literally everything, hand out ObSec to some elites, and make weapons free for some units like devestators. 

[Medjugorje]

Last update the Necrons were given CORE for each vehicle. I would hate that to be happen for our codex. It would not help in that way it should and would reduced all the CORE mechanics which were introduced in 9th edition to go against power creep.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

As an Iron Hands player, whose supplement rules & lore encourage using tanks, I for one am not opposed to certain vehicles (or all vehicles) gaining CORE.