WH40K game Strike Force Agastus

[lansalt]

Some designs just fail the suspension of belief test when the setting or faction has already stablished certain standards. For all the unrealistic things in 40k, there's definitely a lot of  unwritten rules about how things are suppossed to look and feel. Designers trying to innovate do so at their own peril, risking falling short aesthetically, functionally, or both (like in the case of Desolators).

Edited February 4, 2023 by lansalt

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Richard S. Ta said:

I'm in the minority I know, but I really like the new weapons... rule of cool beats out logic for me, especially in 40K. 

 

You are not necessarily in a minority, people who are unhappy tend to complain more loudly than happy people compliment, These are a bit like Centurions, GW have tried to do something a bit different from expectations and the results have somewhat polarised people. Taste is a personal thing so there is no right or wrong. They look a bit "busy" for my tastes but I think I will wait until I see them in the flesh before making up my mind.

[OttoVonAwesome]

On 2/4/2023 at 12:32 PM, Karhedron said:

 

You are not necessarily in a minority, people who are unhappy tend to complain more loudly than happy people compliment, These are a bit like Centurions, GW have tried to do something a bit different from expectations and the results have somewhat polarised people. Taste is a personal thing so there is no right or wrong. They look a bit "busy" for my tastes but I think I will wait until I see them in the flesh before making up my mind.

Oddly enough Centurions look super rad if you leave off the shoulder pads and thigh armour.

[Petitioner's City]

Peachy (who left GW last autumn) talks about how long the models sat on the shelf in this video:

 

 

He compares them to the never released Dwarf steam tank, as something he thinks should have been abandoned. Really fascinating!

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Petitioner's City

[Orange Knight]

The models have grown on me a lot (with the exception of the Sgt's weapon, I hope he can take the same launcher as the rest of the squad) so I'm glad they weren't scrapped.

 

I think once they've been posed in a more thoughtful way the unit will look a lot better.

[Matrindur]

2 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

Peachy (who left GW last autumn) talks about how long the models sat on the shelf in this video:

 

He compares them to the never released Dwarf steam tank, as something he thinks should have been abandoned. Really fascinating!

Really interesting to hear what happens behind the scenes and that they are apparently quite old already

 

Talk about Desolators begins at 46:05 for anyone wanting to watch that bit

 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

Oof - I'm already having trouble getting through that video. For the umpteenth time, they bring up Gravis armor as if that would have been the way to go with these. Peachy mentions recoil. I-yi-yi...

 

They're firing rockets. The recoil is going to be minimal as they don't need to lob a dumb shell across a great distance like an autocannon. There's no need to have a Gravis platform to withstand recoil that largely isn't happening.

 

Likewise, I've seen people suggest that these weapons are Heavy (as in weight-wise, not damage type) and therefore the squad should be wearing Gravis in order to carry them around. If a freaking Firstborn SCOUT who hasn't even fully matured can haul around and fire a Heavy Bolter, then there's ZERO reason to think that a fully-grown Primaris Marine in Tacticus armor would have any difficulty handling one of these multi-launchers.

 

They likewise argue (in the video) that if these models had been designed after the Heavy Intercessors, then they'd have probably put these in Gravis. WHY? Heavy Intercessors have a completely different job. And a big part of that job is walking into kill zones and taking and holding objectives. Not at all what Desolators are doing.

 

The only other argument for Gravis is "Well, but Eradicators have it!" Yes, and Eradicators have a much shorter-ranged weapon with no indirect fire option and thus are going to be exposed to both heavier fire and greater possibility of being rushed in melee. They are going to actually have a need for Gravis much higher than the Desolators would.

 

It just gets old hearing the same easily-refuted argument over and over and over... you don't like the look of the models, fine. But shut up about Gravis already.

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Lord Nord

[Orange Knight]

Around the time when 8th edition had only just dropped, and the 1st wave of Primaris had been released, I found myself chatting to an individual who does work at GW Nottingham.

 

I was advised that at that point they already had a plan for Primaris model releases that could last at least 5 years. It indicates that practically everything we've seen to this point was probably designed before 8th even dropped. I'm never surprised when someone mentions how models that have just been unveiled have been sitting on the shelf for XYZ span of time.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

32 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Around the time when 8th edition had only just dropped, and the 1st wave of Primaris had been released, I found myself chatting to an individual who does work at GW Nottingham.

 

I was advised that at that point they already had a plan for Primaris model releases that could last at least 5 years. It indicates that practically everything we've seen to this point was probably designed before 8th even dropped. I'm never surprised when someone mentions how models that have just been unveiled have been sitting on the shelf for XYZ span of time.

 

Jes Goodwin said as much during his Voxcast appearance promoting Shadowspear. GW works years in advance and with design being one of the earliest stages in their process, it's not surprising that Goodwin and Co. are working a half-decade ahead of the product actually getting to market.

[WAR]

Everyone play nice with each other. 

[Petitioner's City]

3 hours ago, Lord Nord said:

Oof - I'm already having trouble getting through that video. For the umpteenth time, they bring up Gravis armor as if that would have been the way to go with these. Peachy mentions recoil. I-yi-yi...

 

They're firing rockets. The recoil is going to be minimal as they don't need to lob a dumb shell across a great distance like an autocannon. There's no need to have a Gravis platform to withstand recoil that largely isn't happening.

 

Likewise, I've seen people suggest that these weapons are Heavy (as in weight-wise, not damage type) and therefore the squad should be wearing Gravis in order to carry them around. If a freaking Firstborn SCOUT who hasn't even fully matured can haul around and fire a Heavy Bolter, then there's ZERO reason to think that a fully-grown Primaris Marine in Tacticus armor would have any difficulty handling one of these multi-launchers.

 

They likewise argue (in the video) that if these models had been designed after the Heavy Intercessors, then they'd have probably put these in Gravis. WHY? Heavy Intercessors have a completely different job. And a big part of that job is walking into kill zones and taking and holding objectives. Not at all what Desolators are doing.

 

The only other argument for Gravis is "Well, but Eradicators have it!" Yes, and Eradicators have a much shorter-ranged weapon with no indirect fire option and thus are going to be exposed to both heavier fire and greater possibility of being rushed in melee. They are going to actually have a need for Gravis much higher than the Desolators would.

 

It just gets old hearing the same easily-refuted argument over and over and over... you don't like the look of the models, fine. But shut up about Gravis already.

 

 

Honestly I think you need to relisten and also, it's not an argument, it's just a discussion/hypothesis (from two out of three former GW employees) which moves through a conversation of points, no need to feel so het up :)

 

essentially it's probably the same set of points we've all read or seen everywhere, with added GW internal knowledge 

 

- they look stupid (seen in all the memes quoted/shown)

- one they were by a trainee or less experienced sculptor 

- they were delayed at least since being photographed in April 2021

- the quality control aspect of good design didn't occur here as they have too much gun (Peachy repeats this later, they should either be Gatling guns or rocket launchers, not both combined)

- "were they desgined before gravis?" "no" "oh well, but they would look better" (you're sticking point, but it's not really the point)

- why does the sergeant have a pistol but not a holster - unless it's on his bum

- they will sell because they are marines, and Geoff will get them for his son's army if the rules are good (but after six months!)

- they are comparable to centurions - which were also mocked when first released

- you do get hit and misses with any project, that's only to be expected 

- there is a team that decides when things are released or not, because they know what will sell when - and there were a lot of models that were sculpted that never made the cut - so they have chosen to release them even though they have abandoned models before (eg the dwarf tank) 

 

[Noserenda]

They definitely would look better in gravis though

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

"they are comparable to centurions - which were also mocked when first released" and still are depending where you go and who you talk to 

[Toxichobbit]

On 2/2/2023 at 6:23 PM, Bryan Blaire said:

 because someone thought “This looks cool!” (which it doesn’t).

 

 

It may be prudent for said person to reconsider their career choices.

[Mike8404]

3 hours ago, Noserenda said:

They definitely would look better in gravis though

That's because everything looks better in Gravis lol

[Petitioner's City]

1 hour ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

"they are comparable to centurions - which were also mocked when first released" and still are depending where you go and who you talk to 

 

Definitely! 

[Captain Idaho]

And the weird thing is I like Centurions but don't like these guys. I just kept my head down when the bolter rounds were firing on their release...

 

(I liked the Storm Talon too which everyone disliked)

[The Unseen]

Centurions looked just a bit too stumpy, I've seen many a conversion where they lengthen the legs a bit and they suddenly look fine, if not my style. The Stormtalon fits right in with all the other marine flyers, namely that it looks like it uses ridiculous amounts of thrust to fly rather than anything resembling efficient aerodynamics. On the plus side, it means that for marine flyers, having your wings nearly shot off isn't nearly as debilitating as it would in sane aircraft design, lol. Control surfaces are for other people.

 

The Desolaters guns are ridiculous, but that isn't an inherent flaw in the 40k universe, but its also the way they're being carried, they look like they don't have any weight to them at all; hence the nerf gun comparison. Other marine heavy weapons are either hefted onto the shoulder much like an IRL soldier hefts a missile launcher, or carried like a video game protagonist lugging around an LMG. A marine is superhumanly strong, but they still have the same bones and muscle groups that a human does (plus maybe a few extra) so they still *carry* things the same way. A heavy gun like a heavy bolter or multimelta that normally takes a 2-man crew to use they can carry by themselves, but they don't carry them like rifles with the gun extended in front of their torsos, they carry them at the waist, using their pelvis to brace both the weight and presumably the recoil, just like humans don't carry jugs of milk home from the grocery with their arms held out directly in front of them, despite being physically capable of doing so if you are (unless your some sort of crossfit lunatic).  So you look at the models and it looks like they're playing with oversized prop guns made of plastic, not hefting a few hundred lbs of launcher and ammo. (For comparison, a Javelin launcher, which is smaller than the new guns, weighs ~50 lbs when ready to fire, with just 1 rocket. Its at least double that for just the 2 larger rockets, and you have a whole other rotary missile launcher there too.

 

Marines not having holsters or straps has been acceptable forever though, mag-locks on the armor render a holster basically redundant, except maybe to keep dirt out of your gun, but also because if you included to-scale every bit of equipment a marine would *actually* be carrying, you wouldn't get the tabletop silhouette but instead a mess that would be an absolute nightmare to paint. Just go look at some modern infantry (and I don't mean the tacti-cool cosplayers, but real world combat photos or footage) and see how broken up the human profile is when your carrying rifle, pistol, a half dozen or more spare mags on a carrier plate, canteens, grenades, food, etc. Marines at best get like a single ammo pouch around the waist and 2 grenades. The new sneaky marine kits have a few more details now, but its still nowhere near the volume of stuff soldiers actually carry.

[Toxichobbit]

To me, Centurions feel like a good design, poorly executed. Desolators feel like a bad design, well executed. What I mean by that is that the individual parts of the Desolaters would look fine if they were combined in a better way, but the overall design sucks. Where as Centurions had a good overall design, some awesome artwork, but the actual models didn't live up to that.

[phandaal]

3 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

And the weird thing is I like Centurions but don't like these guys. I just kept my head down when the bolter rounds were firing on their release...

 

Centurions, and Gravis, and Terminators.

 

I am a simple man. Chonk = good.

 

Centurion weapons are still ridiculous, though.

[Harleqvin]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:03 AM, Lord Nord said:

Oof - I'm already having trouble getting through that video. For the umpteenth time, they bring up Gravis armor as if that would have been the way to go with these. Peachy mentions recoil. I-yi-yi...

 

They're firing rockets. The recoil is going to be minimal as they don't need to lob a dumb shell across a great distance like an autocannon. There's no need to have a Gravis platform to withstand recoil that largely isn't happening.

 

Likewise, I've seen people suggest that these weapons are Heavy (as in weight-wise, not damage type) and therefore the squad should be wearing Gravis in order to carry them around. If a freaking Firstborn SCOUT who hasn't even fully matured can haul around and fire a Heavy Bolter, then there's ZERO reason to think that a fully-grown Primaris Marine in Tacticus armor would have any difficulty handling one of these multi-launchers.

 

They likewise argue (in the video) that if these models had been designed after the Heavy Intercessors, then they'd have probably put these in Gravis. WHY? Heavy Intercessors have a completely different job. And a big part of that job is walking into kill zones and taking and holding objectives. Not at all what Desolators are doing.

 

The only other argument for Gravis is "Well, but Eradicators have it!" Yes, and Eradicators have a much shorter-ranged weapon with no indirect fire option and thus are going to be exposed to both heavier fire and greater possibility of being rushed in melee. They are going to actually have a need for Gravis much higher than the Desolators would.

 

It just gets old hearing the same easily-refuted argument over and over and over... you don't like the look of the models, fine. But shut up about Gravis already.

 

I mean, they have an underbarreled belt fed automatic missile launcher... You don't think that alone is going to cause recoil?

 

On 2/8/2023 at 12:32 PM, Noserenda said:

They definitely would look better in gravis though

My thoughts are they should have given them different legs. Like Devastators having the reinforced/stabalized boots. Like just giving them Gravis legs/boots, or what eradicaters & heavy intercessors have. Like why do they have basic Primaris Legs/boots?

[Iron Lord]

3 hours ago, Harleqvin said:

 

 

My thoughts are they should have given them different legs. Like Devastators having the reinforced/stabalized boots. Like just giving them Gravis legs/boots, or what eradicaters & heavy intercessors have. Like why do they have basic Primaris Legs/boots?

I the the idea may be that they're like the Hellblasters - regular armour rather than Gravis, but with fairly heavy weapons. Aren't the biggest Hellblaster weapons slightly better than the plasma cannons of Devastators?

[jaxom]

On 2/8/2023 at 8:03 AM, Lord Nord said:

They likewise argue (in the video) that if these models had been designed after the Heavy Intercessors, then they'd have probably put these in Gravis. WHY? Heavy Intercessors have a completely different job. And a big part of that job is walking into kill zones and taking and holding objectives. Not at all what Desolators are doing.

 

9 hours ago, Iron Lord said:

I the the idea may be that they're like the Hellblasters - regular armour rather than Gravis, but with fairly heavy weapons. Aren't the biggest Hellblaster weapons slightly better than the plasma cannons of Devastators?

 

Yeah, the guys on the release stream noted they're not Gravis because their role is to be at the back and launch rockets down range. If anything, it shows how silly the Heavy Intercessors with the 42" Heavy 1 are.

[Harleqvin]

On 2/9/2023 at 6:59 AM, Iron Lord said:

I the the idea may be that they're like the Hellblasters - regular armour rather than Gravis, but with fairly heavy weapons. Aren't the biggest Hellblaster weapons slightly better than the plasma cannons of Devastators?

Possible, but Hellblasters plasma (even the heavy one which the only difference is its connected to the power pack for more energy...,) aren't as heavy looking for recoil as a multi missile launcher with an underbarreled belt fed automatic mini missile launcher.

 

On 2/9/2023 at 4:43 PM, jaxom said:

 

 

Yeah, the guys on the release stream noted they're not Gravis because their role is to be at the back and launch rockets down range. If anything, it shows how silly the Heavy Intercessors with the 42" Heavy 1 are.

Yeah, It seemed strange to me that the Heavy Intercessors had ability to only have up to 2 heavy bolters. Like when I first heard about them I was hoping they were going to be the new Devastators, then boom they can only take up to two HBs...

 

 

All I know is is that if I happen to get those models, I'll be doing something to them well beyond the basic look of them...

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Harleqvin said:

Possible, but Hellblasters plasma (even the heavy one which the only difference is its connected to the power pack for more energy...,) aren't as heavy looking for recoil as a multi missile launcher with an underbarreled belt fed automatic mini missile launcher.

 

I thought part of the benefit of missiles is that they are basically recoilless. The missile accelerates in flight under its own propulsion. Recoil arises from Newton's 3rd law "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".

 

For a normal firearms, the acceleration acts on the barrel of the weapon and so the reaction force manifests as recoil in the gun. With a missile however, the reaction force acts on the exhaust gases being propelled out of the back of the missile. There should be little or no recoil from a missile launcher. Look at the image below of a soldier firing an RPG, the soldier himself does not appear to be experiencing any recoil. You can see the exhaust gases rushing out behind the missile which is where the reaction force is acting. If a modern soldier can fire a RPG without loss of balance, I am pretty sure a genetically engineered super-solider in power armour would not have a problem.