Sanguinius Returning, or Sanguinor Ascended Daemon of the Emperor

[Arkangilos]

27 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Bringing sanguinius back in no way cures the rage. The trauma was experienced and the trauma doesn’t go away just because he comes back to life.

 

if anything sanguinius would also have the rage as well.

Not quite, part of the reason for the rage is because of the way they receive their geneseed via the insanguination process. It’s why the rage has gotten worse with time.

 

However, I agree his return wouldn’t promise an end to it.

 

I do think his return would be stupid. I’m on board with a strengthened Sanguinor, or even a strengthened Dante. 
 

Considering Dante is the promised armored angel that fights before the golden throne (per Dante, iirc), Sanguinius returning would destroy the prophecy and take away from Dante simply so we can have muh primarch. I’m down with daemon primarchs, wulfen Russ, Mutated Corax, armless Dorn, Guilliman, and even the Lion and Vulkan, but not Sanguinius. The Angels go down in glory without their primarch. The others I’m ok with because there has always been a prophecy for them. There has never been one for Sanguinius. Theirs has always been picking up the mantle in honor of what they lost, knowing they’ll all die without him but in honor of his death. 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

Yep. I'll be happy with Dante, Astorath and Corbulo all crossing the Rubicon and then the Sanguinor to get beefed up to Primarch-Proxy level; 60mm base. However, I want Dante to get the Re-Roll rules Guilliman has. The Sanguinor is a deep-striking-into-combat duelist who's only ever spoken like four words and only to Dante. Dante should get (almost) as good re-roll abilities as Guilliman. Additionally, as Regent (insert proxy emperor here) of Imperium Nihilus, shouldn't Dante get some interaction with IMPERIUM keyword units? Maybe Dante should get the supreme commander treatment? He should certainly be able to be taken with Blood Angels Successors? 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 2/3/2023 at 4:09 PM, Arkangilos said:

Not quite, part of the reason for the rage is because of the way they receive their geneseed via the insanguination process. It’s why the rage has gotten worse with time.

 

However, I agree his return wouldn’t promise an end to it.

 

I do think his return would be stupid. I’m on board with a strengthened Sanguinor, or even a strengthened Dante. 
 

Considering Dante is the promised armored angel that fights before the golden throne (per Dante, iirc), Sanguinius returning would destroy the prophecy and take away from Dante simply so we can have muh primarch. I’m down with daemon primarchs, wulfen Russ, Mutated Corax, armless Dorn, Guilliman, and even the Lion and Vulkan, but not Sanguinius. The Angels go down in glory without their primarch. The others I’m ok with because there has always been a prophecy for them. There has never been one for Sanguinius. Theirs has always been picking up the mantle in honor of what they lost, knowing they’ll all die without him but in honor of his death. 

The golden warrior’s identity hasn’t been confirmed.

it’s just Dante’s belief that he is the golden warrior. 
back in 3rd it would be a reasonable assumption when there was only one other model/unit that wore gold armor, but now it’s kinda narcissistic with the SG, and sanguinor existing.

 

On 2/3/2023 at 4:27 PM, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

Yep. I'll be happy with Dante, Astorath and Corbulo all crossing the Rubicon and then the Sanguinor to get beefed up to Primarch-Proxy level; 60mm base. However, I want Dante to get the Re-Roll rules Guilliman has. The Sanguinor is a deep-striking-into-combat duelist who's only ever spoken like four words and only to Dante. Dante should get (almost) as good re-roll abilities as Guilliman. Additionally, as Regent (insert proxy emperor here) of Imperium Nihilus, shouldn't Dante get some interaction with IMPERIUM keyword units? Maybe Dante should get the supreme commander treatment? He should certainly be able to be taken with Blood Angels Successors? 

Definitely should be playable with successors. Dante has essentially reformed the 9th legion.

[Arkangilos]

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The golden warrior’s identity hasn’t been confirmed.

it’s just Dante’s belief that he is the golden warrior. 
back in 3rd it would be a reasonable assumption when there was only one other model/unit that wore gold armor, but now it’s kinda narcissistic with the SG, and sanguinor existing.

I’m fairly certain in Dante, but I’ll double check, that the Sanguinor confirmed it was Dante. It might have been in Devastation of Baal

Edited February 3, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Arkangilos]

Update: another indication it is Dante, from one of the Black Legion books. Notice it describes someone wearing the Death Mask of Sanguinius (which currently is done by Dante).

”In the Time of Ending, we will see the final flight of the Dead Angel's Host. They rise above us on howling wings. They fall upon us in a celestial storm. At their vanguard flies the Last Archangel. To the Neverborn, he will be the Death-that-Soars. To you and I, he will be a mortal man bearing the immortal face of his fallen father. To the Imperium of Man, he will be hope. A warrior of infinite courage. A soldier of infinite sorrows. Beware the golden mask that forever stares and never smiles, weeping tears of frozen gold.”

Also, Dante doesn’t want it to be him. He wants to die at the end of DoB, but Sanguinius came to him in a vision and told him it wasn’t his time, he still had stuff to do. Dante literally begs to die.

 

Either way, it isn’t Sanguinius. The prophecy of the end times is either the Sanguinor, or Dante.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Arkangilos

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, Arkangilos said:

Update: another indication it is Dante, from one of the Black Legion books. Notice it describes someone wearing the Death Mask of Sanguinius (which currently is done by Dante).

”In the Time of Ending, we will see the final flight of the Dead Angel's Host. They rise above us on howling wings. They fall upon us in a celestial storm. At their vanguard flies the Last Archangel. To the Neverborn, he will be the Death-that-Soars. To you and I, he will be a mortal man bearing the immortal face of his fallen father. To the Imperium of Man, he will be hope. A warrior of infinite courage. A soldier of infinite sorrows. Beware the golden mask that forever stares and never smiles, weeping tears of frozen gold.”

Also, Dante doesn’t want it to be him. He wants to die at the end of DoB, but Sanguinius came to him in a vision and told him it wasn’t his time, he still had stuff to do. Dante literally begs to die.

 

Either way, it isn’t Sanguinius. The prophecy of the end times is either the Sanguinor, or Dante.

Iirc sanguinor and SG’s masks were also labeled as death masks, and even without the name in game they have the same rule, and on the models they look like sanguinius as well, all of which has been the same in the lore and art.

they all wear masks of sanguinius.

 

never said he wanted it to be him, just that it’s narcissistic that it couldn’t be anyone else.

[Arkangilos]

41 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

SG’s masks

Are not DM of Sanguinius. They are death masks if the precious wearer (see the codex for how).

 

41 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

just that it’s narcissistic that it couldn’t be anyone else.

That’s not narcissism. At most it is looking too much into a prophecy.

But in his case he is the only one that meets all the criteria.

1) DMoS.

2) Figure of hope to all the imperium (only Dante holds that among the BA. The Sanguinor does not).

3) Leader of the Angelic Hosts (Chapter Master, not the very rare and almost unknown Sanguinor).

4) Filled with sorrows.

 

If it was narcissism he would *want* it.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Arkangilos

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Arkangilos said:

I’m down with daemon primarchs, wulfen Russ, Mutated Corax, armless Dorn, Guilliman, and even the Lion and Vulkan, but not Sanguinius.

I hadn't considered it before, but I do like the idea of dashed hope regarding Sanguinius being something that motivates and brings the returned Primarchs together. Like, they're all back via what some may deem miracles, and they're waiting for Sanguinius to return... and he doesn't. He's dead. They all know the Emperor is a monster, humanity has willingly shackled itself to the rotting corpse of the Imperium, but they'll be damned if 10,000 years later some punk traitor First Captain is going around wearing the weapon that murdered  their favorite brother as if it were a badge of worthiness.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

When he comes back I’m interested to see if the Black Rage subsides.

[Marshal Reinhard]

What if he fuels it?

[WARMASTER_]

32 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Iirc sanguinor and SG’s masks were also labeled as death masks, and even without the name in game they have the same rule, and on the models they look like sanguinius as well, all of which has been the same in the lore and art.

they all wear masks of sanguinius.

 

never said he wanted it to be him, just that it’s narcissistic that it couldn’t be anyone else.

How’s it narcissistic? It literally describes Dante and not the Sanguinor “a mortal man” the Sanguinor is not 

 

Dante is also the only warrior to actually wear the face of his father, the Sanguinary guard wear the Death Mask of the last wearer not Sanguinius 

Edited February 3, 2023 by WARMASTER_

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

Not quite, part of the reason for the rage is because of the way they receive their geneseed via the insanguination process. It’s why the rage has gotten worse with time.

 

However, I agree his return wouldn’t promise an end to it.

 

I do think his return would be stupid. I’m on board with a strengthened Sanguinor, or even a strengthened Dante. 
 

Considering Dante is the promised armored angel that fights before the golden throne (per Dante, iirc), Sanguinius returning would destroy the prophecy and take away from Dante simply so we can have muh primarch. I’m down with daemon primarchs, wulfen Russ, Mutated Corax, armless Dorn, Guilliman, and even the Lion and Vulkan, but not Sanguinius. The Angels go down in glory without their primarch. The others I’m ok with because there has always been a prophecy for them. There has never been one for Sanguinius. Theirs has always been picking up the mantle in honor of what they lost, knowing they’ll all die without him but in honor of his death. 

The rage was always present, but dormant until he was KO’d.

the process may be making it worse, but bringing him back would definitely not put an end to it. It will stabilize them at best.

[Arkangilos]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The rage was always present, but dormant until he was KO’d.

the process may be making it worse, but bringing him back would definitely not put an end to it. It will stabilize them at best.

No it wasn’t. The Rage was post death. You need to reread the lore. It is literally always described as the backlash from his death, and only ever that.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Arkangilos

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

No it wasn’t. The Rage was post death. You need to reread the lore. It is literally always described as the backlash from his death, and only ever that.

There was something present during the Great Crusade which resembled the Black Rage. Blood Angels would lose their minds and start rampaging. It was separate from their overactive omniphagea. Some considered it atavistic throwback behavior from the Revenant Legion. The higher level Great Crusade staff who knew about the Revenant Legion were suspicious of Sanguinius, because it's not like the behavior came from nowhere.

 

Sources: Fear to Tread, and Sanguinius: The Great Angel

[Cactus]

That prophecy could conceivably refer to any future Chapter Master of the Blood Angels, assuming the mask is handed down.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

No it wasn’t. The Rage was post death. You need to reread the lore. It is literally always described as the backlash from his death, and only ever that.

A demon KO’d sanguinius during the HH, and all of his sons fell to the rage immediately.  
 

When sanguinius fought kahbanda on signus prime, he fell unconscious because of the psychic trauma of hundreds of his sons by slaughtered, after he lost consciousness the rest of the blood angels fell into a rage described as the same as the black rage when viewed by a third party.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

No it wasn’t. The Rage was post death. You need to reread the lore. It is literally always described as the backlash from his death, and only ever that.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Signus_Campaign

[Mike8404]

21 hours ago, Corswain said:

I love the Primarchs but I'm against any Primarch returning to 40K. The dead ones even more so.

The setting and plot is just so much better as the last gasps of a dying empire defended by the lesser sons of greater fathers. 

 

I think that ship has well and truly sailed though.

 

The Sanguinor as some kind of avatar doesn't bother me too much though. I still feel there are stakes there.

Which Primarchs are actually dead, though?  Horus is the only one GW for sure can't bring back without serious gymnastics.  In Master of Mankind, the Emperor says Ferrus' essence is still intact in the warp and that he planned to bring him back following the Heresy.  Sanguineous's essence is still intact too, and his body is in stasis on Baal.  There's no reason GW can't bring him back, they've all but set the plot up for all the Primarchs to come back, as they should.  Every legion should get their Primarchs, minus SoH since Abaddon fills that role

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

Which Primarchs are actually dead, though?  Horus is the only one GW for sure can't bring back without serious gymnastics.  In Master of Mankind, the Emperor says Ferrus' essence is still intact in the warp and that he planned to bring him back following the Heresy.  Sanguineous's essence is still intact too, and his body is in stasis on Baal.  There's no reason GW can't bring him back, they've all but set the plot up for all the Primarchs to come back, as they should.  Every legion should get their Primarchs, minus SoH since Abaddon fills that role

Right? Intact body, intact soul, everything necessary for revival is there.

[Mike8404]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Right? Intact body, intact soul, everything necessary for revival is there.

It's all there.  I think people are to quick to scream and yell about changes to the lore and they actually hurt the lore more than anything.  It's clear GW intends to bring back all the Primarchs and advance the story further.  Dorn was dead dead too, but now he's "missing", Lorgar is rumored to be out of his temple, Fulgrim is leading the Emperor's Children, and Mortarian, Magnus, and Angron are each invading the galaxy.  In 10 years we could be looking at having most, if not all, of the Primarchs released.  This has been a big demand by the fandom ever since Magnus and Guilliman returned

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 minutes ago, Mike8404 said:

It's all there.  I think people are to quick to scream and yell about changes to the lore and they actually hurt the lore more than anything.  It's clear GW intends to bring back all the Primarchs and advance the story further.  Dorn was dead dead too, but now he's "missing", Lorgar is rumored to be out of his temple, Fulgrim is leading the Emperor's Children, and Mortarian, Magnus, and Angron are each invading the galaxy.  In 10 years we could be looking at having most, if not all, of the Primarchs released.  This has been a big demand by the fandom ever since Magnus and Guilliman returned

Right? Like they had dorn’s skeletal body and now it’s retconned as just a skeletal hand.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Or maybe just a pinky bone… 

[Arkangilos]

4 hours ago, jaxom said:

There was something present during the Great Crusade which resembled the Black Rage. Blood Angels would lose their minds and start rampaging. It was separate from their overactive omniphagea. Some considered it atavistic throwback behavior from the Revenant Legion. The higher level Great Crusade staff who knew about the Revenant Legion were suspicious of Sanguinius, because it's not like the behavior came from nowhere.

 

Sources: Fear to Tread, and Sanguinius: The Great Angel

Nope. That wasn’t the black rage. That was literally a spell that the demons were using that made the thirst worse. They gave into the thirst, not the rage.

 

 

[Arkangilos]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Signus_Campaign

As I said above, that wasn’t the black rage, but an enhanced version of the thirst, which the fall of Sanguinius brought out. There was an active spell happening.

3 hours ago, Mike8404 said:

It's all there.  I think people are to quick to scream and yell about changes to the lore and they actually hurt the lore more than anything.  It's clear GW intends to bring back all the Primarchs and advance the story further.  Dorn was dead dead too, but now he's "missing", Lorgar is rumored to be out of his temple, Fulgrim is leading the Emperor's Children, and Mortarian, Magnus, and Angron are each invading the galaxy.  In 10 years we could be looking at having most, if not all, of the Primarchs released.  This has been a big demand by the fandom ever since Magnus and Guilliman returned

I mean someone already quoted them saying they don’t intend to bring back the dead primarchs. So… you are wrong.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Geedub is well known for saying one thing then doing something else, so you shouldn’t say he’s wrong yet.