WH40k game Angels of Death, Returning Primarchs and the Future of 40k Theories

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They don’t.

[WARMASTER_]

17 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Why wouldn’t it be and no I’m not being rhetorical.

Because like most chapters it’s a categorical yes! But it’s also a question that has zero merit to a lore discussion of should/will a Primarch return?

 

I’m pretty sure every loyal soul in the Imperium would love the Emperor to heal himself and get up off the Throne… 

[WARMASTER_]

15 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Don't the iron hands (or a significant portion of) have quite a disdain for Ferrus? 

Apologies if my Iron Hands-fu is lacking here and I simply got that wrong.

The flesh is weak! But trauma is strong 

[Halandaar]

Did we really need a second thread for the same people to argue over the Sanguinor?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

And say the same wrong things…

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

On 2/4/2023 at 5:47 AM, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

The Sanguinor, also known as the Exemplar of the Host, is a mysterious entity of unknown origin that is associated with the Blood Angels Space Marines Chapter, and has been named after Sanguinius, the Blood Angels' martyred primarch.
 

Not much is known about his origins, and what information does exist is really nothing more than speculation by the Chapter's Librarium and several Imperial scholars well-versed in the lore of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

The Sanguinor often appears during the Blood Angels' periods of greatest need, usually during a combat situation. To many among the battle-brothers of the Chapter he is no more than a myth, as few ever survive the battles where he has manifested, but the initiates of the Blood Angels' Reclusiam know differently, having kept detailed records of his manifestations down through the centuries.

 

The members of the Blood Angels' Chapter Council argue that the Sanguinor is the manifestation of Sanguinius' own better nature, his nobility that kept his darkness in check, lost to the Chapter with his death at the hands of Horus aboard the Warmaster's flagship the Vengeful Spirit during the climax of the Siege of Terra.

None know from where the Sanguinor comes, yet there are two credible possibilities put forward by the Blood Angels. The first is that the Sanguinor is the last member of the Blood Angels' Sanguinary Guard to have survived the Horus Heresy, Azkaellon, although this seems implausible, even with the long life-spans granted to Space Marines by their genetic alterations.

 

The second, and more widely accepted possibility is that when the Primarch Sanguinius was slain by Horus, his soul split in two: that half which was full of anguish, pain and doubt over his actions during the Horus Heresy became the Flaws that torture the Blood Angels to this day, while that part which was noble and righteous formed into the Sanguinor within the Immaterium.

 

Now ask yourself the most important question… would the Chapter want their Primarch to return?

 

I know that this is not Sanguinor thread, however (please correct me, if I'm wrong 'cause it's been some time since I read Darkness in Blood)  isn't it currently known for sure that Sanguinor is an avatar of the "bright" side of Blood Angels' collective psyche and acts as a counterpart to the entity currently "possessing" Mephiston, which represents its dark part? Whenever BA do something "good" (like weaving a really cool tapestry) Sanguinor gets a boost, whenever they do something "bad" (like munching a bunch of orphans) the "Dark Angel" gets a boost. The two are locked in eternall struggle outside barriers of time and space for BA fate. I vaugely remember something like that in DiB.

[Karhedron]

Yes, that is pretty much the summary of Mephiston's vision in DitB. The only other bit is that the dual angelic deities apparently predate Sanguinius's arrival on Baal. All Primarchs were shaped by the worlds on which they landed after they were scattered. It seems that Baal itself influenced what Sanguinius became.

 

As to the Sangiunor, originally his origins were left vague. However the HH novels make it clear that he was originally a specially selected member of the Sanguinary Guard who was chosen during Imperium Secundus to act as Sanguinius's Herald. He was even addressed as "The Sanguinor" so there is no ambiguity about this. Later, during the events of Ruinstorm, he was lost in the warp and Sanguinius's last vision of him had him sprouting wings.

 

What the Sanguinor is now is much less clear. He is evidently a warp entity but whether he has any connection so Sanguinius soul is unclear. The Sanguinor denies actually being Sanguinius when Mephiston asks and sadly replies that Sanguinius died long ago.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Karhedron

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I doubt that the 30k Sanguinor and 40k Sanguinor are the same. James Swallow, who wrote the HH short story, is by no means a fan favorite for lore. Sure they could be, but the 40k lore doesn’t support it. During the 30k era the Sanguinor was a role played by the Sanguinary Guard, so he would have to be the last member of the Blood Angels' Sanguinary Guard to have survived the Horus Heresy, Azkaellon… this seems implausible, even with the long life-spans granted to Space Marines by their genetic alterations. So besides the amazingly long life span, well exceeding Dante (who is supposed to be the longest lived Blood Angel), he’d also have to somehow have become a supernatural being.

 

Some think that when the Primarch Sanguinius was slain by Horus, his soul split in two: that half which was full of anguish, pain and doubt over his actions during the Horus Heresy became the Flaws that torture the Blood Angels to this day, while that part which was noble and righteous formed into the Sanguinor within the Immaterium. However this doesn’t account for the Black Legion novels by ADB which state the Primarch’s soul crystallized onboard the Vengeful Spirit… so there is a contradiction between two sources.

Edited February 5, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Arkangilos]

10 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I doubt that the 30k Sanguinor and 40k Sanguinor are the same. James Swallow, who wrote the HH short story, is by no means a fan favorite for lore. Sure they could be, but the 40k lore doesn’t support it. During the 30k era the Sanguinor was a role played by the Sanguinary Guard, so he would have to be the last member of the Blood Angels' Sanguinary Guard to have survived the Horus Heresy, Azkaellon… this seems implausible, even with the long life-spans granted to Space Marines by their genetic alterations. So besides the amazingly long life span, well exceeding Dante (who is supposed to be the longest lived Blood Angel), he’d also have to somehow have become a supernatural being.

I think it would be explained by the whole stuck in the portal thing. But like you, I agree with everything you just said. I also hope they nix that 30k Sanguinor story line. 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

19 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I doubt that the 30k Sanguinor and 40k Sanguinor are the same.

 

Ruinstorm is not really subtle about this:

"The herald stood in the midst of the portal, neither in the temple nor in the Veritas Ferrum. Bestriding realities, enveloped by the storm of the warp, he should not have been visible any longer. He should have vanished the moment he entered the portal. His silhouette was visible, bent over of the body of the daemon, his sword transfixing the Undivided. The edges of his outline trembled, as if the immaterium sought to eat away at his being. His stance over the writhing daemon was strong. He was motionless, already a symbol more than a warrior of flesh and bone. He would stand until his work was done. (...) At the last moment, he witnessed the greater miracle. He saw the outline of wings spring from the herald’s shoulder. A new angel was coming into being. ‘Son of my blood!’ Sanguinius cried. ‘Son of my hope!’ And the angel blazed with gold."

27 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

 However this doesn’t account for the Black Legion novels by ADB which state the Primarch’s soul crystallized onboard the Vengeful Spirit… so there is a contradiction between two sources.

These are not captured souls but ship's memories. From the first appearance of the statues in Wonderworker by ADB:

 

"The Angel of Blood had died here on his knees, cut down and murdered by the First and False War- master. But I could not imagine Sanguinius pleading for mercy or striking such a piteous posture when the blade finally fell. The Vengeful Spirit, and my sister now incarnated as its consciousness, had a memory as bitter and biased as any Legion warrior." (noting that the pose of Sanguinius' statue does not match the reality)

 

"The Vengeful Spirit remembers all those that died aboard its decks. All who breathed their last breath within these halls are honoured thus."

 

And about lack of Horus:

"There is no echo of his death for the warship to memorialise"

 

The similar phenomenon takes place on Conqueror, which produces ghosts from its memory so we have an encounter between living Lotara Sarrin and self conscious ghost of her past self preserved within ships memories in the last siege book. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

In Talon of Horus I believe it’s also stated it’s the psychic reflection of Sanguinius’s soul at his death appears in the planning room of the Vengeful Spirit. Also I’d argue that what’s created in the Ruinstorm isn’t a herald taken from the Sanguinary Guard.

 

Can someone quote the passage from DitB where the Sanguinor states he’s not SANGUINIUS? Thanks

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Not in ToH but in Black Legion and i don't think it deviates from what I wrote - they're ship's memories of the dying:

 

"Sanguinius was there. Noble Sanguinius, Primarch of the Blood Angels Legion, was there in all his glory, and I saw Sargon hesitate upon entering. He considered the primarch’s manifestation an omen, and likely a bad one. Sanguinius was formed of psychically resonant crystal, as were all of the echoes of those slain aboard the Vengeful Spirit throughout its long history. Corridors and hallways across the ship were rimed with these outgrowths, and they formed most frequently after battle or tumultuous journeys through the Eye. I had become accustomed to them – they had been the very first things we had seen when we initially came aboard the Vengeful Spirit in our hunt for Abaddon. They were mindless statues of hazy crystal, easy to dismiss unless one were foolish enough to touch them. They ‘sang’ when touched, psychically offering numbed images and sensations of their deaths in last, useless gasps of a soul’s energy. The phenomenon had briefly fascinated me, but I soon relegated it as beneath notice. Sanguinius had died aboard the Vengeful Spirit, and here his ghost remained, as the warp-saturated steel of the ship’s hull resurrected the primarch along with the other fallen. This was not the first time I had seen Sanguinius’ crystalline shade. I had shattered it once, intrigued by the potency of the crystal shards, and one of them served now as the smooth pommel jewel of my force sword, Sacramentum. The crystal primarch always regrew, sometimes here, sometimes elsewhere, just as the other crystal corpses across the ship always regenerated after shattering. Ashur-Kai bowed his head as he passed the kneeling angel, paying respect to the agony etched upon that perfect face of stained diamond. Most of the others ignored it, save for Lheor who gave a pained grin at the sight. He idly swung his chainaxe as he passed, the weapon’s teeth briefly roaring, biting and breaking one of the immense wings from the body. I felt a twinge of psychic expression from the crystal ghost, a stab of false pain from the psy-crystals"

 

DiB:

It's from the vison of Mephiston. A red angel, who is his guide through a series of visions explains to him about Sanguinor:

 

"He was once a man, like you. Into him has poured all the nobility of your kin for one hundred centuries. See how powerful he is."

 

After some yadda yadda the red angel, who is said to be BA's doom and "much more", reveals himself in the form of Sanguinius:

 

"‘My lord Sanguinius… I am sorry.’

The vision of the primarch smiled sadly down upon him. The angels blurred. They faded, and the last spectres of them were drawn within the primarch’s being.

‘I am not Sanguinius. Sanguinius is dead,’ said the thing that wore the primarch’s face."

 

Mephiston later discusses his vision with Dante and reaffirms that Sanguinius is dead and that even if his souls had survived in the warp, it couldn't ger unscathed and wouldn't be what it was during his lifetime.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well it’s stated it’s a ghost… take that as you will. And I don’t know how much I’d trust the vision of Mephiston but thanks for the references. 
 

Having read this I don’t think he’s the Primarch.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Arkangilos]

4 hours ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

A new angel was coming into being. ‘Son of my blood!’ Sanguinius cried. ‘Son of my hope!’ And the angel blazed with gold."

Not going to lie, I cringed a little when I read this here xD

New explicative to use though. Stub your toe and exclaim "Son of my Blood!"

Edited February 5, 2023 by Arkangilos

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Me too it just keeps getting worse not better …

 

So Sanguinor was possibly the longest living Space Marine ever. We now know HES NOT SANGUINIUS. Eventually he sprouts wings and develops supernatural powers. Could he be an agent of Tzneetch ?

Edited February 6, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Reading through penitent now, and there’s a reference directly to sanguinius and the 9th legion, could this be some other weird set up?

[Nagashsnee]

6 hours ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

Me too it just keeps getting worse not better …

 

So Sanguinor was possibly the longest living Space Marine ever. We now know HES NOT SANGUINIUS. Eventually he sprouts wings and develops supernatural powers. Could he be an agent of Tzneetch ?

Ok i am going to make one last attempt. During the novel HH Ruinstorm we get to actually see the birth of the Sanguinor. Funny thing he does indeed sprout wings, he sacrifices himself by taking Sanguinius place to hold a warp portal/gate and a deamon in place, as Sanguinius leaves he sees him get said wings, attain a ethereal golden glow, etc. 

 

He as the herald of Sangunius features in several ( not huge amount 3-4 iirc) both short stories and novels, he plays a key part in some of them ( Like ruinstorm), he possesses fey abilities even before said warp event ( appearing as if out of nowhere when the need is great).  

 

I realize this does not fit your personal headcannon, and thats fine i myself ignore lots of things in the lore i dont like. But i accept they exist. The origins of the Sanguinor are those of the herald of Sanguinius from 30k, a member of his guard who over the course of the heresy ascends into the beginnings of the being we know as the Sanguinor. He is not just a marine, any more then a marine is just a 9 year old boy. He tranforms and is molded into something new. 

 

People have even  provided some key quotes from the book itself to better explain/showcase how by 40k standard clear cut a case this is. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I inferred he is from the 30k era so what are you talking about? My question is simple - how does he manage to sprout wings and develop supernatural powers he possesses?

Edited February 6, 2023 by BLACK BLΠFLY

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

I inferred he is from the 30k era so what are you talking about? My question is simple - how does he manage to sprout wings and develop supernatural powers he possesses?

The book infers that just as Meros (name might be wrong, the apothecary from Fear to tread) sacrificed himself and took in Sanguinius darkness and rage ( while exposed to the warp) and became the red angel. The herald scarified himself to save his father from his desire/hope that him dying there might change the heresy for the better/let the other 2 legions also get to terra and thus took in Sanguinius nobility/desire to help at any cost.

 

Honestly the book throws phrases like ¨crossroad of fate in the warp¨  around but there is no clear cut explanation for the power up. On the other hand the herald has show powers and abilities prior to this point that are not normal so honestly who knows.  It mostly just happens and is written vague enough that any future writer/plot is not tied to anything too specific.  But its fair to say at that point the marine stops existing and the warp entity of the sanguinor is born proper.  

 

TLDR The warp did it.  

Edited February 6, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s just really bad writing.

[Nagashsnee]

55 minutes ago, BLACK BLΠFLY said:

It’s just really bad writing.

Oh 100% for sure, Sanguinor had no business being in the HH and GW obsession with revealing mysteries that did not need revealing while also not really revealing it is maddening. 

 

 

[Arkangilos]

4 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Oh 100% for sure, Sanguinor had no business being in the HH and GW obsession with revealing mysteries that did not need revealing while also not really revealing it is maddening. 

 

 

That’s why my head canon rejects Swallow’s stuff and the Sanguinor business. 
 

It is easier with his 40K BA work because it has been retconned (the timeframe for the BA civil war in his 40K series is the same time DoB and all that stuff is happening, so it literally can’t be the same). 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It seems like Swallow wanted to alienate himself from BA players.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

Quote

It is easier with his 40K BA work because it has been retconned (the timeframe for the BA civil war in his 40K series is the same time DoB and all that stuff is happening, so it literally can’t be the same). 

 

Quote

It seems like Swallow wanted to alienate himself from BA players.

I sometimes get maybe a bit too mean about Swallow around here, but really I'm just never going to get over the first BL Blood Angels omnibus being about Blood Angels having a civil war.  Not really that excited to read about Blood Angels not owning the enemies of the Imperium, but rather owning themselves.  Really, really disappointing, very glad to hear that abomination was apparently retconned. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Inquisitor Eisenhorn

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Arkangilos said:

That’s why my head canon rejects Swallow’s stuff and the Sanguinor business. 

 

Actually "The Herald of Sanguinius" was written by Andy Smillie, not Swallow.