ChapterMasterGodfrey Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Regardless of when you think Vanguard Veterans will be redone, I think we all agree they will be redone. I just can't seem to shake the feeling though that, while Sternguard got a pretty much 1:1 remake (5 man squad, 32mm bases), a redone Vanguard Veterans squad may be significantly different than their firstborn counterparts (firstborn here refering to the "old" scale, not necesarily Primaris/not Primaris). I think they may even lose the name "Vanguard" Veterans. I think they could be "Bladeguard Veterans with Jump Packs". Bladeguard Veterans, Inner Circle Companions, Sanguinary Guard, the rumoured Space Wolves unit, all 3 man melee heavy hitters on 40mm bases. I think melee focussed veteran units are following this trend. Then, there's the fact that accross multimedia, GW uses the term "Vanguard" marines to refer to Phobos armoured units. For clarity, I think they'll move away from that word for this unit. Anyway, what are your thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
apologist Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) All makes a lot of sense – the direction of travel for elite units like this is fewer, larger models with more surface detail and specific wargear. As you point out, the overlap of terminology is slightly awkward, so you may well be onto something. The counterargument is that the other Elite choices in the Space Marine Codex –Sternguard and Terminators – remain five man; and Space Marines are always treated slightly differently to other armies. While I think your analysis is good, it's very hard to predict GW's actions based on their past releases. Edited February 4 by apologist ZeroWolf, ChapterMasterGodfrey and Tawnis 2 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapterMasterGodfrey Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 51 minutes ago, apologist said: The counterargument is that the other Elite choices in the Space Marine Codex –Sternguard and Terminators – remain five man; and Space Marines are always treated slightly differently to other armies. While I think your analysis is good, it's very hard to predict GW's actions based on their past releases. Yes, however, a slightly straw clutching counter-counter could be that they are ranged elite units? That does leave Sword Brethren in a weird limbo but as I recall they're a take anything unit with one guy having a combi plasma and another a pair of lightning claws.Plus BT aren't overly bothered by rules... Yes I agree with your final point, GW are hard to predict. I just want some logic at least. Unlike say, having an apothecary that doesn't heal... Great idea that was... apologist and VengefulJan 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halandaar Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 19 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said: Yes, however, a slightly straw clutching counter-counter could be that they are ranged elite units? Deathwing Knights stayed as a 5-man unit too and they would have been a very likely candidate to drop to 3 as a way of differentiating them further from Terminator Assault Squads. But yeah, I don't think there is a clear direction here. We've already talked about BGV (3) Vs SGV (5), but also look at the Chaos factions; Possessed come in 5s, but Khorne Possessed (Eightbound) and EC not-Possessed-honest (Flawless Blades) are both 3s. So will Vanguard go to 3 models? Definitely plausible. I hope not as I think it helps give them a different role from Bladeguard (and also Sanguinary Guard), but I wouldn't at all be surprised. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Eye Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 I could see them doing a 3-man squad, but I'd much rather they were more in line with the Sternguard. To be fair, the Primaris veterans so far have been pretty good so I'm hoping they follow that pattern. 40mms would be a bit of a weird choice, though, I'd rather they were on the standard base size. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 My gut feeling is that they will probably remain 5/10-man units to maintain parity with the Sternguard. They are an elite jump assault squad in the same way that Sternguard are an elite Tactical/Intercessor squad. BGVs, Inner Circle Companions and the forthcoming Space Wolves with extra Wolves are 3/6 but are new units for Primaris with no firstborn equivalent. Sanguinary Guard are the only unit to go from 5-man to 3-man and that is partially I think because GW wanted these bodyguard units to function in a particular way. TheNicronomicon and Ming the Merciless 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapterMasterGodfrey Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 16 minutes ago, Halandaar said: Deathwing Knights stayed as a 5-man unit too and they would have been a very likely candidate to drop to 3 as a way of differentiating them further from Terminator Assault Squads. But yeah, I don't think there is a clear direction here. We've already talked about BGV (3) Vs SGV (5), but also look at the Chaos factions; Possessed come in 5s, but Khorne Possessed (Eightbound) and EC not-Possessed-honest (Flawless Blades) are both 3s. So will Vanguard go to 3 models? Definitely plausible. I hope not as I think it helps give them a different role from Bladeguard (and also Sanguinary Guard), but I wouldn't at all be surprised. Your points here do make it seem like there's little rhyme and reason to GW descisions! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapterMasterGodfrey Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 5 minutes ago, Evil Eye said: 40mms would be a bit of a weird choice, though, I'd rather they were on the standard base size. Is there any weight in the thought that elite melee units are shifting to 40mm to give them an edge in getting into engagement range? Getting into base contact with more enemy models? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapterMasterGodfrey Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 3 minutes ago, Karhedron said: My gut feeling is that they will probably remain 5/10-man units to maintain parity with the Sternguard. They are an elite jump assault squad in the same way that Sternguard are an elite Tactical/Intercessor squad. BGVs, Inner Circle Companions and the forthcoming Space Wolves with extra Wolves are 3/6 but are new units for Primaris with no firstborn equivalent. Sanguinary Guard are the only unit to go from 5-man to 3-man and that is partially I think because GW wanted these bodyguard units to function in a particular way. Yeah, VV staying as a 5-man was my first instict too, why would they change right? But I just kept going back to 3-man in my musings, especially with the idea of them being Bladeguard Veterans with Jump Packs. I accept I've made that last bit of theory up on my own, but having two "Vanguard" marine organisations is just frustrating to me! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeadlessCross Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 9 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said: Yeah, VV staying as a 5-man was my first instict too, why would they change right? But I just kept going back to 3-man in my musings, especially with the idea of them being Bladeguard Veterans with Jump Packs. I accept I've made that last bit of theory up on my own, but having two "Vanguard" marine organisations is just frustrating to me! Bladeguard with Jump Packs is just Sanguinary Guard. You can make an argument all Loyalist Scum should have a Jump Pack Honor guard unit to begin with, but Vanguard have not been able to fulfill that role. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacitus Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 I think they end up a direct copy-paste into Primaris. I hope they get a tweak to Heirloom Weapons but I doubt it. Way back when each chapter got their "elite" niche. UM got Veteran Tacticals BA got Veteran Assault Marines SW got Veteran Devastators DA got Veteran Terminators. Veteran Tacticals turned into Sternguard and (pretty much) Codex Compliant only Veteran Assaults became Vanguard and (less so) Codex Compliant Only. Veteran Devastators were always Long Fangs and stayed that way. Veteran Terminators were expanded into multiple datasheets and pretty much stayed DA I imagine that's the way its going to more or less stay - other than dropping the Codex Compliant stuff now that Bladeguard blew the doors off of that idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Hmm, I could see them going for a 3 man squad maybe. BUT I think they'll stick to 5 man for vanguard, and like sternguard they'll stay 2 wound. Realistically what marines need is a hammer melee unit, and thats what they should make vanguard. Bladeguard are your anvil unit, there to tank. I'd personally like vanguard options to be: - heirloom weapons with power weapon equivalent stats across the board - option to take x thunder hammers (two handed) or power fists or paired lightning claws - option to take x special pistols - relic blade for sergeant - no stormshields then costed accordingly. It would give them a very clear role vs bladeguard which are meant to tank. LSM, ChapterMasterGodfrey and Karhedron 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) They’ll need a massive glow up to be worth it in 3s vs 5s. the only thing that makes them remotely worth considering right. now imho is the shields at least allow them to be fairly durable. they need a weapon option that’s at least base A4 S8 AP-2 D2, and the generic profile they currently have is mostly fine but id increase it to A6. maybe a better ability? Edited February 5 by Inquisitor_Lensoven jaxom 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxom Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: They’ll need a massive glow up to be worth it in 3s vs 5s. Agreed. And at that point, would they just be Sanguinary Guard? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNicronomicon Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 If they’re a 3-man unit why not stick them in Gravis with a jump pack and thunder hammers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapterMasterGodfrey Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 6 hours ago, jaxom said: Agreed. And at that point, would they just be Sanguinary Guard? Unit rule would offer differentiation as well as wargear. SG don't have access to thunder hammers, power fists (anymore). Plus, you know, not everyone can take SG. jaxom and AutumnEffect 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 lets be real, vanguard are unlikely to end up as 2+ save unit, and yeah they'd for sure have a different base rule, so would still be differentiated from sanguinary guard. My view is: - ICC/Sanguinary guard are bodyguard units, they're basically company heroes, with different options/rules - bladeguard are tanky, albeit less so than they've been in the past, with acceptable melee - sternguard are (obviously) shooty veterans - vanguard have always been intended as an alpha strike type of unit, and their original rules represented that (charge from deepstrike back when nobody else could). They're meant to be a decapitation unit IMO. So yeah, I wouldnt want them being super survivable, its not really their job. They "just" need to be very hard hitting. A built in rule to let them both: - charge easier from deepstrike (bonus to distance or something) - get back into reserves would be pretty interesting for them, you'd have a unit that: - comes down and hits something hard - takes some casualties - has the option to stay on the board and keep fighting - or - takes to the sky to repeat step 1. AutumnEffect, ChapterMasterGodfrey and jaxom 1 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6092969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 11 hours ago, jaxom said: Agreed. And at that point, would they just be Sanguinary Guard? Basically but with a different ability. maybe a built in +2” to charge rolls and no inherent invuln? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6093013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChapterMasterGodfrey Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 7 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said: Basically but with a different ability. SG are 3W, 2+, 4++ and have a vastly different load out. They're a very different unit. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6093017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 18 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said: SG are 3W, 2+, 4++ and have a vastly different load out. They're a very different unit. Yes, SG are closer to flying Bladeguard than VanVets. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6093025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor_Lensoven Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 44 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said: SG are 3W, 2+, 4++ and have a vastly different load out. They're a very different unit. And load out will likely change with they cross the rubicon. Will likely be 1 special pistol and two heavy bolt pistols per 3 if they get shrunk to a 3 man unit. We also don’t know if they’re going to go to 2+ or not, if they can get shields that will give them a 4++ as well. an extra wound per model and a 2+ vs 3+ doesn’t make two units ‘very different’ if they lose shield access and stay 3+ 2W, they will definitely be less durable but they’ll still be filling the same niche, just like the 2 FB variants we’re extremely similar. It’s not really a bad thing for them to be very similar. 31 minutes ago, Karhedron said: Yes, SG are closer to flying Bladeguard than VanVets. ATM, but VGV also haven’t been primarized yet. as FB SG we’re very similar to VGV, the 2+ being the biggest difference, but with VGV access to shields they end up with similar durability as FB SG. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6093038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacitus Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 5 hours ago, Blindhamster said: lets be real, vanguard are unlikely to end up as 2+ save unit, and yeah they'd for sure have a different base rule, so would still be differentiated from sanguinary guard. My view is: - ICC/Sanguinary guard are bodyguard units, they're basically company heroes, with different options/rules - bladeguard are tanky, albeit less so than they've been in the past, with acceptable melee - sternguard are (obviously) shooty veterans - vanguard have always been intended as an alpha strike type of unit, and their original rules represented that (charge from deepstrike back when nobody else could). They're meant to be a decapitation unit IMO. So yeah, I wouldnt want them being super survivable, its not really their job. They "just" need to be very hard hitting. A built in rule to let them both: - charge easier from deepstrike (bonus to distance or something) - get back into reserves would be pretty interesting for them, you'd have a unit that: - comes down and hits something hard - takes some casualties - has the option to stay on the board and keep fighting - or - takes to the sky to repeat step 1. I think you're over thinking it, at least compared to how much thought GW puts into it. Sterngard are Veteran Tactical Squads. Vanguard are Veteran Assault Squads. I think that's about as much "role" thought they get. They're there to give the (that squad type) army another datasheet - an elite datasheet that also removes some pressure from the Rule of Three. Inquisitor_Lensoven, Blindhamster and Karhedron 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/385232-your-opinions-on-40mm-based-3-man-vanguard-veterans/#findComment-6093056 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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