Rifleman Dreadnought

[Necronsftw]

I don't mean to rant :D but I do not get what is the fuss with riflemans, people say their good at taking out AV12 wave serpents and good against mechdar but you need 5's to glance and 6's to pen, so are the chances really that good because I thought they looked nice on paper but in the game their not so good. Unless you guys know how to make them useful I think their garbage.

[Morticon]

Theyre a solid allrounder for a decent price. They can handle tough infantry and light vehicles and are always mobile and can engage in combat.

Personally, im not a fan either and would prefer to put my points elsewhere, but I think they can work/fulfill a role in most lists.

Look at it this way, every hit you make gives you a 50% chance of getting a glance on a rhino.

 

With 4 shots hitting, you're guaranteed to do something.

Also, with AV12, you're looking at just over 100% chance to glance- ie do "something".

 

It shouldnt be doing your heavy lifting though - if you rely on it for AV12+ then you're asking for trouble.

[Wysten]

Rifleman dreads often don't kill, but simply end up shaking armour the entire match. Which allows the more melee orientated meltas to get close and bust that target. Any kills they do earn is a bonus and at a good deal cheaper then it's equilient weight of lazcannon, which is a bonus for armies trying to keep their melee efficent.

 

Pretty much any anti tank ranged fire, from Devs to Preds to Riflemen, is simply suppression fire to stop the other guy from shooting so much, allowing the melta guys to get up close and hopefully neutralise the threat and allow the heavy gunfire to engage other targets.

[Necronsftw]

See that's the thing they don't seem to do enough I like the Auto/Laz preds better but all my marine friends are saying these things are amazing. I think they are versatile until you play a 3 land raider list....and nothing to really shout at, heavy armor has just started to shift into are meta gun but yet some people swear by rifleman dreads even though I believe that AC/las preds are better due to the fact they can pop land riaders [if lucky] or razorbacks or even try and kill off some bugs.

[Brother_Dan'l]

It's cheap volume firepower with good range. It's hits hard enough to make any transport nervous and is very effective against any small units of toughness models other than Terminators. It's easier to find cover for than a Predator. More mobile than Devastators. Has twice the reach of any SM Dreadnought that rolls more than 1 shot per weapon. And just generally looks way cooler than it's PV suggests. ;)

[Crynn]

'Necronsftw' I totally agree with you, the dread is far inferior to the las autocannon pred for points. For almost the exact same cost, the pred doesnt re-roll hits however has 2 shots at +2 str and -2 ap making it good against MCs and heavy infantry which the dread isn't. It is also much better against armor of 11 or more so really the dread is almost worthless in comparison for damage. As for cover the pred provides a line of site block for your troops and can find cover easily enough using any other rhino chassis or even troops as it is not as tall as the dread. It, unlike the dread can also move 12" if it needs to and still fire a weapon incase of some deepstrikers or cavalry that may be getting to close, also is much faster through terrain, thank you dozer blade and can perform tank shocks, has more weapon systems to be destroyed and has a higher front armor facing. So really, rifleman dread? You guys must really like the model because it just doesnt compare.

 

Regards:

Crynn

[grazer]

I finally got my first game in with the latest Codex and I fielded a rifleman dread and found it extremely useful for sitting back in a corner with some cover just peppering heavy hitters with long range firepower. I used it to whittle down berserkers on their way to my lines so that by the time they hit, they didn't have much bite at all.

 

As for comparing them to predators, I don't play to be super competitive and really just like to play with fun toys and the rifleman fulfills that role amazingly well. I'm actually planning to play a second one this Thursday since I liked using one so much.

[Joasht]

Its four very accurate S7 shots, so you usually use it to pop Rhinos, Razorbacks, Raiders, Trukks and misc light vehicles or as people said, to shake things around at a good range. Plus its still a dreadnought, and even though its not very killy you can still walk him up the board slowly while firing, then get him stuck in with something that can never kill him and tie that unit up for the rest of the game. For 120 points its not nearly too shabby.

[Anpu42]

You can also Pod it in, great for those "Whole Army In Reserve" Games.

It is also a way ter one more Hunter Killer Missile on the Board

[PhantomPhoenix]

Stelek did a really good comparison of the Rifleman vs Autolas in Angel Lists over on his blog. Analysis: Autolas vs Rifleman I saw 3 main things that made the Rifleman a bit more effective that the Autolas.

 

First is Line of Sight, on both the Dread and the Pred the Autocannons have great line of sight, 360 elevated while still allowing the vehicle itself to remain in cover. However on the Autolas, the Lascannon sponsons are low slung and on the sides, effectively removing 50% of each one's LoS and allowing smaller terrain features to provide cover or cut of LoS completely.

 

The second is armor, against most weapons that you're going to be having turned on either one of these vehicles, the difference between AV13 and AV12 is virtually nil. Lances drop the armor to 12 either way, and melta doesn't much care if you're AV14 let alone 12/13. This is where the Dread gets the advantage, instead of 13/11/10, the Dread is 12/12/10. This means that the Dread can be where you want him, mid field taking the side armor shots where he can get them(and where they matter) and still be safer from the longer range threats. Preds are designed to sit in the back, hence only armored fronts. Even fast as they are, they're just as easy to pop as a rhino if you turn it just a little too far one direction or another.

 

Last is close range response. Let's say hypothetically you've got 1 of each. Both have a 4 up Cover save, whether from popped smoke or intervening models. A unit with melta unloads, but your vehicle manages to survive thanks to your cover. With the Pred, your only option is to shoot or run. In either scenario your Pred is no longer where you want it or it's no longer in cover and the melta get free shots. With the Dread however, you have the option to charge the unit tying it up. Sure you still lose your rounds of shooting, (so this one may come out as a more even comparison then not) but in this situation the melta unit is tied up as well and not shooting their flaming guns of screw you.

 

On top of those the Dread is cheaper, smaller, and twin-linked. Now this isn't to say that the Autolas doesn't have a place, the mass AV13 lists prove that. Nobody likes to see a wall of preds walking toward them. However, it seems that if you're looking for the most effective all around, point for point, the Rifleman does seem to squeak out a few extra bangs for it's buck.

[Crynn]

You can also Pod it in, great for those "Whole Army In Reserve" Games.

It is also a way ter one more Hunter Killer Missile on the Board

 

Why would anyone pod a riflemen dreadnaught, let alone want to waste points on a hunterkiller? hunterkillers are inherently cost in-effective. And why would you shoot bezerkers with a riflemen dread? Only another example of where the pred would have been better.

 

If we are talking playing units that we think look cool cause we aren't 'super competitive' then why bother posting at all? Telling someone they should take it cause it looks cool is pretty redundant, if someone thinks something looks cool I'm sure their own mind was made up on that before anyone else put there 2 cents in. All I can see here is "I use the riflemen dread over a pred cause I think its cool" which is fair enough, I just don't believe posting that helps anyone on a forum.

 

Regards

Crynn

 

Just a quick side note, against armor 10 the dread and the pred literally have exactly the same chance to destroy the vehicles, it is within 1% difference, against any higher armor it starts favoring the pred more and more. So for what the dread is best at the pred is as good or better. granted it doesnt look quite as cool

[PhantomPhoenix]

Just a quick side note, against armor 10 the dread and the pred literally have exactly the same chance to destroy the vehicles, it is within 1% difference, against any higher armor it starts favoring the pred more and more. So for what the dread is best at the pred is as good or better. granted it doesnt look quite as cool

 

Crynn, are you taking into account the accuracy of the Rifleman? If my math is right (which it's entirely possible it may not be) the Dread is actually more effective at AV10 and it's at AV11 where they even out.

 

If both vehicle get all their shots, the Dread will average about 3.5555 Autocannon hits per shooting phase while the Autolas will average 1.3333 Autocannon and 1.3333 Lascannon hits.

With the Dread that gives you about 2.37 shots that will Glance/Pen vs AV10, and with the pred you get 2.2222 Glaces/Pens. Virtually identical pens from both but more glances from the Rifleman.

Against AV 11, the Dread and Pred both get 1.7777 shots that will do something. Very slightly more chance to pen from the Pred (about .02 pens difference).

 

In all fairness, I like to believe Math-hammer will work out in the end, but in practice that's not always the case...

 

Also, in terms of looking cool, I think Preds look way cooler than the goofy autocannons popping out of dread shoulders, but that may just be me :cuss .

[Anpu42]

You can also Pod it in, great for those "Whole Army In Reserve" Games.

It is also a way ter one more Hunter Killer Missile on the Board

 

Why would anyone pod a riflemen dreadnaught, let alone want to waste points on a hunterkiller? hunterkillers are inherently cost in-effective. And why would you shoot bezerkers with a riflemen dread? Only another example of where the pred would have been better.

 

Its simple on the Drop Pod.

 

Lets say you come with 3 Drop Pods, one with a Melta-Sternguard and 2 with Dreads [One Riflemen and one Assault Cannon].

 

You roll Dawn of War.

 

Turn One you can bring on one HQ, Two Troops [For me that is a Land Raider Crusader loaded with Logan and his Wolf Guard] and with Drop Pod Assault Half of your Pods come in on Turn one. You can place the Melta-Dread near their deployment area and also put down the Rifleman dread just on your side.

 

Most likely, the 1st thing that is coming out with your opponent is a Transport and those are usually Armor 12.

 

As far as the Hunter Killer: a S8 AP 3 Unlimited range shot will really ruin that Biker Space Marian Captain’s Day. :cuss

[Menos]

What you forget cyrnn is that the las-pred is pretty much a tank hunter (I mean c'mon why are you shooting it at troops again?) where-as the rifleman can tank hunt (somewhat respectfully) AND go after light medium, and if your feeling lucky heavy troops. Versatility is key in war.

 

Oh and why do you sign your posts?

[Anpu42]

Other good things they would be good against

-Bikers

-Thunder Wolf Cavalry

-Deamons in general

[KhorneHunter57x]

Just a note: Rifleman Dreadnoughts are awesome.

 

 

For Codex Marines.

 

The main three advantages of the Rifleman over the Combi-Predator for C:SM are maneuverability (can move 6" and still fire everything), slot competition (the Rifleman does not take up a valuable Heavy Support slot that could be better used for a Land Raider/Vindicator/Whilwind/Thunderfire, unlike the Predator), and accuracy. For Blood Angels, however, the biggest two of these are negated with Fast Predators and HS Dreadnoughts, and the BA Combi trades accuracy for higher front armor, an extra weapon, better Str and AP, and faster speed for when you need to escape from the nasty anti-tank unit that just deep struck next to you.

 

Therefore, I feel that, although the Rifleman fills a niche with Codex Marines, it is redundant in a Blood Angels force. Give me Fast Combi-Preds any day.

[Crynn]

What you forget cyrnn is that the las-pred is pretty much a tank hunter (I mean c'mon why are you shooting it at troops again?) where-as the rifleman can tank hunt (somewhat respectfully) AND go after light medium, and if your feeling lucky heavy troops. Versatility is key in war.

 

Oh and why do you sign your posts?

 

It is only a tank hunter because of what you as a player decide to shoot at. For versatility it is better, it can move further and against all armor you've mentioned here, being medium and light vihicles and heavy infantry it is better. So when it comes to versaltility it is above the dread. The only thing that dread does better is kill light infantry which is really wasting its fire power.

 

And Phantom Pheonix you are indeed correct as am I! Both our Maths are spot on! I said chance to destroy in which at armor 10 they are both the same, including glancing hit dmg the dread is slightly higher on dmg that doesnt kill, but it is slight. From armor 11 up the pred is the winner. So your math is all good bud.

 

Also the only reason I would put one in a pod weather dawn of war or not is just to make another pod with another unit in it that should be podded come down first turn by make uneven numbered pods.

 

But I still stand by my point of it's superfulace nature in most games. The best resoning I have heard for it is that in heavy vehicle armies it can start to get hard to draw line of site through your own vehicles which I have seen happen and as someone who uses alot of vehicles in some of my Blood Angel armies I have had to manouver strategically just to fire at full effectiveness. The dread being slightly taller can actually shoot over the non turreted rhino chassis such as rhinos and generally razorbacks. So other than that mathamatically it is inferior plane and simple, unless you really want to shoot non heavy infantry with it. (for insstance it would be usable against orks trucks armies, lots of models and trucks less kans and battlewagons.)

 

Regards and thanks for the good replies too, not the normal dribble that forums can produce hehe B)

 

Crynn

[Crynn]

Just a note: Rifleman Dreadnoughts are awesome.

 

 

For Codex Marines.

 

The main three advantages of the Rifleman over the Combi-Predator for C:SM are maneuverability (can move 6" and still fire everything), slot competition (the Rifleman does not take up a valuable Heavy Support slot that could be better used for a Land Raider/Vindicator/Whilwind/Thunderfire, unlike the Predator), and accuracy. For Blood Angels, however, the biggest two of these are negated with Fast Predators and HS Dreadnoughts, and the BA Combi trades accuracy for higher front armor, an extra weapon, better Str and AP, and faster speed for when you need to escape from the nasty anti-tank unit that just deep struck next to you.

 

Therefore, I feel that, although the Rifleman fills a niche with Codex Marines, it is redundant in a Blood Angels force. Give me Fast Combi-Preds any day.

 

Agreed B)

[Crynn]

Other good things they would be good against

-Bikers

-Thunder Wolf Cavalry

-Deamons in general

 

Bikers, if you mean space marine bikers or any bar ork the pred is better

Daemons yes, if they are not nurgle or are creatures with armor like hard hitting princes or their walkers. So really many scary thing in the army it will be better against not to mention you can move it fast to keep it out of combat unlike the dread who'll get torn apart.

Thunderwolf cav, the pred will out perform the dread by a mile, as in that isn't even close.

 

There will be some instance where the dread will be better but for each one I can name 5 in the same army book that it would be better against, no exaduration.

 

Competitive armies.

Guard, eldar, marines, orks, tyranids, necrons, space wolves and any other marine varients, most comp tau, etc the pred will out perofrm.

 

The competitive daemons is a mood point as is dark eldar where I think the dread may fair slightly better offensively as defensively there is no doubt which unit is tougher.

 

Regards

Crynn

 

Appologee for the many posts I should learn how to multiquote.

[PhantomPhoenix]

Competitive armies.

Guard, eldar, marines, orks, tyranids, necrons, space wolves and any other marine varients, most comp tau, etc the pred will out perofrm.

 

I have to disagree with you there on virtually all fronts.

 

Guard: 12AV front yes but only 10AV side, we already covered that against AV10 the difference is negligible if you only count the shooting, but the Rifleman will more reliably have cover granting it a vast amount of survivability especially against guard.

 

Eldar: Against wave serpents your 2 Lascannon shots are only S8 against the front and side, which makes the difference much smaller, and against their lances your additional AV13 means nothing.

 

Orks: All of their vehicles are AV10 on the side, even the Battlewagon, so for the same reason as IG this means little to either. However, you throw a unit of Boyz or Nobz at a Pred and it will break. Even only hitting on 6s eventually the first wave will immobilize it and the Klaws will clean up with auto hits. I do it with Zerkers all the time, it will happen. That doesn't happen nearly as easily against the Dread since it fights back.

 

Nids: Against the whole army except the T6 MCs, the Lascannon is not going to make any difference as both will ignore armor and wound on 2s. This is where the Twin-Linked really shines. Even against the MCs it's a difference of wounding on 2s vs 3s (for the 2 lascannon shots only) and again, I think Twin-linked more than makes up for that.

 

Tau: Railguns ruin your day, the Dread's cover will outweigh the Pred's S9 AV13 advantage.

 

Necrons: I see the advantage of the Lascannons here, preventing WBB and negating armor is big, but still with only 2 shots non-linked it's not very reliable. However, the armor won't matter much since, with the exception of Heavy Destroyers and the Particle Whip, you'll mostly be getting glanced to death either way.

 

 

Now, in each of my examples I provide why I feel the Dread would work better against those armies. They're not great examples as they attempt to compare both units in a vacuum, completely ignoring what armies they'd be in and what roles they'd attempt to fulfill. As I said in my earlier post, point for point I feel you get much more versatility and reliability from the Rifleman. However, there are most definitely places for the Autolas Predator in lists, again based on the synergy of the particular list and the person playing the army.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Imo any shooty dread is more often going to be more productive than a CC dread. The rifle-man is versatile and will at least stun, if not kill some things early in the game. CC dreads on the other hand, without an expensive transport, a newbie opponent and extreme luck will likely just get shot to pieces.

[lorider2]

Some really good posts here. I think it needs to be said there is no clear answer as to whether rifleman dreads or combi-preds are better. Both can be really effective and which one can more will depend on the army you are facing. Lots of AV13 and AP2 targets and you will want those lascannons. Lots other mech units in your army might block line of sight favoring the dread. The pred is better at running away while the dread can lock up a medium unit in CC. And against a footslogging army I will wish I brought devs with 4 missile launchers. What I dislike about the combi-pred personally is the inability to get any rerolls. To me that sucks. What I dislike about the dread is you NEED to roll that 6 to pen a lot of stuff. Any other result just often doesn't get a kill. So I often fluctuate between wanting the one and then the other based on what shots my dice mess up for me. :P

[Crynn]

Competitive armies.

Guard, eldar, marines, orks, tyranids, necrons, space wolves and any other marine varients, most comp tau, etc the pred will out perofrm.

 

I have to disagree with you there on virtually all fronts.

 

Guard: 12AV front yes but only 10AV side, we already covered that against AV10 the difference is negligible if you only count the shooting, but the Rifleman will more reliably have cover granting it a vast amount of survivability especially against guard.

 

Eldar: Against wave serpents your 2 Lascannon shots are only S8 against the front and side, which makes the difference much smaller, and against their lances your additional AV13 means nothing.

 

Orks: All of their vehicles are AV10 on the side, even the Battlewagon, so for the same reason as IG this means little to either. However, you throw a unit of Boyz or Nobz at a Pred and it will break. Even only hitting on 6s eventually the first wave will immobilize it and the Klaws will clean up with auto hits. I do it with Zerkers all the time, it will happen. That doesn't happen nearly as easily against the Dread since it fights back.

 

Nids: Against the whole army except the T6 MCs, the Lascannon is not going to make any difference as both will ignore armor and wound on 2s. This is where the Twin-Linked really shines. Even against the MCs it's a difference of wounding on 2s vs 3s (for the 2 lascannon shots only) and again, I think Twin-linked more than makes up for that.

 

Tau: Railguns ruin your day, the Dread's cover will outweigh the Pred's S9 AV13 advantage.

 

Necrons: I see the advantage of the Lascannons here, preventing WBB and negating armor is big, but still with only 2 shots non-linked it's not very reliable. However, the armor won't matter much since, with the exception of Heavy Destroyers and the Particle Whip, you'll mostly be getting glanced to death either way.

 

 

Now, in each of my examples I provide why I feel the Dread would work better against those armies. They're not great examples as they attempt to compare both units in a vacuum, completely ignoring what armies they'd be in and what roles they'd attempt to fulfill. As I said in my earlier post, point for point I feel you get much more versatility and reliability from the Rifleman. However, there are most definitely places for the Autolas Predator in lists, again based on the synergy of the particular list and the person playing the army.

 

For eldar, fire prisms wraithlords are examples where the pred is better to mention it is far better with keeping out of melta gun rnage than the dread, if you cant find cover with a pred you seriously need to look at your movement phase and fix, and like I said a pred can get a cover save from infantry a dread cannot by half obscured by that,

 

Guard, you are a fool to think the dread is better here, not only will it rarely to never get side armor shotas against a good general threats such as russes and the most numerous and dangerous vehicle in guards competative play the vendetta are better killed by the pred, not to mention once again gernerally more survivable.

 

Against orks, the competitive hard boys builds, involve nobs with or without bikes and/or battlewagon, again the predator is far superior here again.

 

Nids, MC are the big one and warriors get instance death so 3 times more effective on them because of their three wounds, not to mention the dread will get caught and destroyed far easier than the pred

 

Tau, your talk of dread cover is beggining to get thin, i can get 3+ cover saves on a pred you can almost never get that on a dread, angle your preds right and you wont get hit on side armor and you will have a better cover save, that preds 13 is worlds ahead of the dreads 12 against many tau weapons not to mention it kills their vehicles far easier and battlesuits as well.

 

The only thing you can show the dread will kill better is infantry, weather its taue eldar ork whatever, however like i stated before if you are shooting infantry with that thing there is something wrong with you i suggest looking into a baal or a pred with heavy bolters which is not only over 20 points cheaper but more effective again. Also remember using correct firing arcs and movement a pred can get a 3+ cover save where the dread will barely ever achieve that. A smart player will use rhinos and razorbacks with smoke to shield more dmgng units and give them 3+ saves, it is on of the reasons I have had so much success with my angels, vindis that shoot then get 3+ saves are rediculous I cant pull the manuvours with a dread.

 

Simply put, there is a reason why competitive ard boys list will take the preds and not the rifleman dreads.

[Arkio]

how do you get a 3+ cover for a vehicle? please share that with me as that seems like wishful thinking.

[PhantomPhoenix]

Crynn,

 

Almost none of your statements actually provide examples as to why you think the Autolas is a better choice. Most of them simply say "the pred is better" and move on to the next topic. I'd like to be able to respond to your arguments, but without you providing examples I really don't have anything to work with.

 

I will however reply to the examples you did provide:

 

First section, it's true a Dread has trouble gaining cover from your average height space marines (Assault Marines can do it thanks to dynamic posing and big jump packs) but you can't get a cover save from 1 GW Tree model with the Pred while you can with the Dread. This also frees up the other vehicles you would need to provide cover to go and give it to someone else who needs it. You also don't give your target cover in this case.

 

In your guard section, you mention Russes as a reason for the Predators superiority. Granted if you're shooting at the front of the vehicle you are completely correct, the small chance of penetrating hits with a lascannon is much better than the minimal chance of glancing with the autocannons. But this ignores the point that neither of these vehicles should be taking shots at Russes when there are more valid targets (Artillery and Transports), especially not in an Angel list when you can have a 5man RAS with Melta and Infernus drop behind it with minimal scatter and pop it much more reliably, and generally earlier in the game. Not to mention they're cheap and a troop choice...

 

Against Nid Warriors, the difference between Rifleman and Autolas is 1 dead bug vs 1 dead bug and 1 bug with 2/3 wounds left. Not huge.

 

Your example of 3+ cover only applies to shooting facings other than the one you are in, and if that's the case, then it's your AV11 that's open. Not only that, but keeping the Pred in cover forces you to negate 1 or more of your lascannons or give your opponent cover from them as well.

 

Now, what I want to come from all of this is not that the Rifleman is a better choice every time, I've never said that. What I want clear is that if you're making an all-comers list in which you need the most flexibility from your heavy slots as possible, I feel (quite strongly) that the Rifleman is a better choice. Yes the Autolas does have places it excels, in many cases Orks and Bugs have trouble dealing with the AV13 so yes, I can see the Autolas doing better against many of these lists, thanks to superior range and mobility. I just don't see that same thing happening against IG when they can potentially have 3 units with a total of 11 Meltaguns (usually Twin-Linked) in your face top of turn 1, or against Eldar where, no matter how much more mobile we are than Vanilla Marines, you're going to be getting out run and out maneuvered until you can cripple them.

 

As a side note, AC/HB Baal = 145 minimum, Rifleman = 120 minimum.