Tzeentch... Evil?

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

In order for something to be classed evil it has to possess both Sentience and Free Will. - Sentience in order to be aware of what it is doing. and Free Will so it can choose whether or not to commit evil. (if such a concept exists - presuming it does!)

 

Okay, I see your point here. But I'd still say the Gods are an instrument of evil, or a source of it.

 

The Warp has become what it is today because of the Mortal races, their hidden desires, their ambitions, and feelings. To call the manifestations of these emotions 'evil' is to also say feeling anger is evil, because it empowers the Blood god. Having ambitions and hope is evil because it empowers the changer of ways. The gods are these emotions, nothing more.

 

Non sequitur. The Chaos Gods are formed by emotion, and the actions of the Gods are undoubtedly evil, but that does not make all emotion evil. I'd argue a modicum of anger is okay- necessary- for normal human life (paraphrasing Malcolm X, sad people just whine about their condition, angry people bring change). But to take it to excesses where the anger rules your actions... that is evil.

[Hellios]

In order for something to be classed evil it has to possess both Sentience and Free Will. - Sentience in order to be aware of what it is doing. and Free Will so it can choose whether or not to commit evil. (if such a concept exists - presuming it does!)

 

Okay, I see your point here. But I'd still say the Gods are an instrument of evil, or a source of it.

 

The Warp has become what it is today because of the Mortal races, their hidden desires, their ambitions, and feelings. To call the manifestations of these emotions 'evil' is to also say feeling anger is evil, because it empowers the Blood god. Having ambitions and hope is evil because it empowers the changer of ways. The gods are these emotions, nothing more.

 

Non sequitur. The Chaos Gods are formed by emotion, and the actions of the Gods are undoubtedly evil, but that does not make all emotion evil. I'd argue a modicum of anger is okay- necessary- for normal human life (paraphrasing Malcolm X, sad people just whine about their condition, angry people bring change). But to take it to excesses where the anger rules your actions... that is evil.

 

You paint black, what contains many shades of grey. Also this is an argument like is their a god or is their not a god far greater minds than ours have considered it and non have come up with an objective argument that proves anything.

 

In my personal view would have to agree with what someone said about them being elemental or a force of nature. A Tsunami or an Earthquake causes great damage and unrest and all sorts of other problems like the Chaos Gods do. Maybe you consider Tsunamis to be evil but I doubt you do. This is not my argument I'm merely getting this out of the way.

 

The difference is intent or choice. Here we could argue all sorts of things but we wouldn't get anywhere... however as a Christian I will give you something to think about.

 

When god killed/murdered/slaughtered/brought judgement or whatever term you would like to use to people in the Bible was that Evil? Maybe you say yes... but I would guess you would say no as he has his reasons. Now we can question the validity of various real religious texts or texts or even living people that claim to do what they do because of god.

 

People have and continue to kill and wage war for God. (Where is the difference between this and Khorne)

God has brought plague and famine upon people (Nurgle anyone)

God has plotted with man for one reason or another (More directly but then again isn't this what Tzeentch does even if on a larger scale and with no 'useful point'

I must admit I'm sure how to connect God to Slaanesh unless someone practising eugenics and genocide in the name of god counts (so people become perfect).

 

I would just like to note I'm not saying God did this but for arguments sake lets say he did. What if he did? What would you do? Who are you to judge him? Maybe you can Judge those of lesser standing than yourself but who are you to judge that which is so much greater than yourself that you can't even comprehend it. On this note if God is the source of morality then it could be argued that this doesn't exist in the 40k Universe unless you count the Emperor in which case the Emperor and Chaos are opposing entities and so have bias towards their own point of view.

 

Lets thrown in another idea. Its wrong to kill... Now lets examine this... Is it wrong to kill period? Can we apply this to all sentient races or maybe even all species (plants and/or animals and other wonderful things). Do certain reasons give you the right to kill. Self defence?Plain Old survival (food and so on)?, Defence of others. I'm sure you could come up with hundreds of ideas some you might consider valid some you wouldn't.

 

But from the view of a Chaos god which I guess for arguments sake we can say is greater than a human. Is killing a human to survive any different from a human killing a Chicken to eat for the same reason.

 

Basically you can see what I'm getting at here everyone can argue back and forth sideways till Saturday and we wouldn't be any closer to an answer.

[Democratus]

Yes, they are evil.

 

Those trying to convince you otherwise are in the service of the dark gods.

 

Moral relativism is the last refuge of the morally bankrupt. Once you hear someone trying to say that evil doesn't exist - then you know you have found evil.

 

From an in-game RP pont of view: if the Emperor opposes it then it is, by definition, evil.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Yes, they are evil.

 

Those trying to convince you otherwise are in the service of the dark gods.

 

Moral relativism is the last refuge of the morally bankrupt. Once you hear someone trying to say that evil doesn't exist - then you know you have found evil.

 

From an in-game RP pont of view: if the Emperor opposes it then it is, by definition, evil.

 

:)

 

I disagree with the Moral Relativism comment, Moral Absolutism has many faults, and as a Relativist theory; Joseph Fletcher's Situation Ethics is in my opinion the most 'Godly' ethic, Jesus himself said around about: "Follow the Spirit of the law, rather than the letter of the law" or something along those lines!

 

And i take your not being serious about the whatever the Emperor opposes is evil comment :lol: ;)

[Hellios]

Yes, they are evil.

 

Those trying to convince you otherwise are in the service of the dark gods.

 

Moral relativism is the last refuge of the morally bankrupt. Once you hear someone trying to say that evil doesn't exist - then you know you have found evil.

 

From an in-game RP pont of view: if the Emperor opposes it then it is, by definition, evil.

 

From a RP point of view what you say only applies if you follow the Emperor which the vast majority of the Galaxies inhabitants do not.

 

I'm sure people who have lead a better(by your standards) life than you have said that evil doesn't exist. The problem is their is no (proven) universal code of morality and not everyone sees evil as you do, infact many only see evil as a concept and so tell me why would someone who lived a life identical to one (Insert someone with a high level of morality who is good because of their religious beliefs?) be so bad.

 

Where is your source of morality. Now lets say someone has their own derived set of moral codes that reaches a certain standard equal to that of religion X which sets a code of morality for its followers to live by... I would actually say the person with their own set of moral codes is more moral than those who do it because of religious obedience. (I realise this is not a counter to what you said I'm merely expanding the topic, also I'm not trying to imply that because someone follows a religion they are incapable of free thought.)

[Marchosias]

Moral relativism is the last refuge of the morally bankrupt. Once you hear someone trying to say that evil doesn't exist - then you know you have found evil.

 

I'm not quite sure what to do with this ;)

 

I don't think we're going to reach a suitable conclusion on this matter, and i'm really struggling to stay on topic ;)

 

But i think that is part of the problem; this topic goes too deep to be limited by it's own established concepts. Before deciding if a God is 'Good or Evil' we need to be clear what 'Good and Evil' are within themselves. Many have tried but it comes back to the age old, 'i believe this and i refuse to be moved' scenario. The weight of any debate concerning 'Good and Evil' challenges the foundations of our very existance, quite often with some unsettling ideas. So to speak objectively on such a matter becomes incredibly difficult. I wouldn't say impossible (perhaps, with a touch irony, i believe some people can remain objective :lol: ).

 

Maybe this thread perfectly illustrates the point; that everyone should fully understand what they mean by 'Good and Evil' within their concepts and not simply associate them with a higher power to define said concepts.

[Gree]

People forget that the setting is Warhammer 40k, a setting were basicly everybody is evil as we would measure it. The Tau are considered to be the brightest socity but they use concentration camps and brainwashing. Tzeentch's daemons feast on the souls of children and raze entire worlds to ash. I would say he is pretty evil, as well as being a massive dick.

[Marchosias]

People forget that the setting is Warhammer 40k, a setting were basicly everybody is evil as we would measure it.

 

No one has forgotten anything. If you define Good and Evil as universal concepts then they are not subject to change. The fact that they do change undermines their claim of an established code. Of course we would measure the 40k universe as evil because it is alien to our own. The rights of the individual do not count for anything as survival becomes the higher goal.

 

Now think back to some Communist regimes in particalur Stalinist Soviet Union and Communist China under Chairman Mao. As a citizen in a democratic country i would be horrified to hear such measures as the 'Five-Year Plan' or the 'Great Leap Forward' but they were deemed necessary to the economy and safeguarding the futures of the respective states. In laymans terms, 'suffer now so that your children can prosper'. And you would call this evil? Surely to leave your children a shattered country without any prospects would be evil?

Mankind defines morality on the basis of time and circumstance. What is 'evil' now wasn't always so. The same can be said for good.

 

The Tau are considered to be the brightest socity but they use concentration camps and brainwashing. Tzeentch's daemons feast on the souls of children and raze entire worlds to ash. I would say he is pretty evil, as well as being a massive dick.

 

These are examples of evil, they are not evil 'in itself'. Imagine if i were to ask you what is a car and you answered, 'BMW, Ford, Toyota.' These are not cars 'in itself' but examples of cars. I want to know 'what a car is'. What does it do, i.e. what is it independent to the examples?

[Gree]

Stalin killed off his own people and opressed nations.

 

Tzeentch daemons do the same but also eat babies and feast on human souls.

 

Which is more evil?

 

I don't think there is any way to justify the daemon summoning, baby-eating and callous backstabbing that Chaos and by extention Tzeentch practices. the average warp daemon would put the most dangerous psychopath today to shame.

 

These are examples of evil, they are not evil 'in itself'. Imagine if i were to ask you what is a car and you answered, 'BMW, Ford, Toyota.' These are not cars 'in itself' but examples of cars. I want to know 'what a car is'. What does it do, i.e. what is it independent to the examples?

 

Ask and ye shall recive.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile

[Gree]

double post.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Now we can question the validity of various real religious texts or texts or even living people that claim to do what they do because of god.

 

People have and continue to kill and wage war for God. (Where is the difference between this and Khorne)

 

People do all kinds of things 'in the name of (deity)' that goes against the true creed of that faith. Difference lies there with Khorne, whose creed is 'kill, and then kill some more.'

 

God has brought plague and famine upon people (Nurgle anyone)

God has plotted with man for one reason or another (More directly but then again isn't this what Tzeentch does even if on a larger scale and with no 'useful point'

 

But we can be sure (if we're talking about that God's motivations aren't the plague itself and the despair it brings, or the plotting itself and the power it gives Him (as He's omnipotent anyway). That makes him different from these Chaos Gods.

 

Maybe you can Judge those of lesser standing than yourself but who are you to judge that which is so much greater than yourself that you can't even comprehend it. On this note if God is the source of morality then it could be argued that this doesn't exist in the 40k Universe unless you count the Emperor in which case the Emperor and Chaos are opposing entities and so have bias towards their own point of view.

 

But we can much more easily comprehend the Gods of Chaos, because so much background is written about their motivations, desires, whims, characters, and needs.

 

Lets thrown in another idea. Its wrong to kill... Now lets examine this... Is it wrong to kill period?

 

No. In the case of killing a human to survive, I suppose it would depend on your intentions with that survival. You can't make moral choices in a vacuum.

[Hellios]

Now we can question the validity of various real religious texts or texts or even living people that claim to do what they do because of god.

 

People have and continue to kill and wage war for God. (Where is the difference between this and Khorne)

 

People do all kinds of things 'in the name of (deity)' that goes against the true creed of that faith. Difference lies there with Khorne, whose creed is 'kill, and then kill some more.'

 

God has brought plague and famine upon people (Nurgle anyone)

God has plotted with man for one reason or another (More directly but then again isn't this what Tzeentch does even if on a larger scale and with no 'useful point'

 

But we can be sure (if we're talking about that God's motivations aren't the plague itself and the despair it brings, or the plotting itself and the power it gives Him (as He's omnipotent anyway). That makes him different from these Chaos Gods.

 

Maybe you can Judge those of lesser standing than yourself but who are you to judge that which is so much greater than yourself that you can't even comprehend it. On this note if God is the source of morality then it could be argued that this doesn't exist in the 40k Universe unless you count the Emperor in which case the Emperor and Chaos are opposing entities and so have bias towards their own point of view.

 

But we can much more easily comprehend the Gods of Chaos, because so much background is written about their motivations, desires, whims, characters, and needs.

 

 

Well I must admit your points are valid even if they can be argued against (As I said in my first post this is the kind of topic that can't reach a real answer, only a number of points of view), also I fear you do Khorne a great injustice :'( he has more depth than that.

 

 

Oh wait I've now come up with the Ultimate answer! The Chaos Gods (so Tzeentch included) are Good because the 40K universe would be bland an boring if it wasn't for the dark gods passing the time :P

[Marchosias]

Stalin killed off his own people and opressed nations.

You are correct, he did do this. Yet some people still revere him. Same with Chairman Mao. Others think they were evil.

 

Stalin killed off his own people and opressed nations.

 

Tzeentch daemons do the same but also eat babies and feast on human souls.

 

Which is more evil?

 

But you've not answered my question. You keep listing examples of evil deeds. You are yet to define evil.

 

These are examples of evil, they are not evil 'in itself'. Imagine if i were to ask you what is a car and you answered, 'BMW, Ford, Toyota.' These are not cars 'in itself' but examples of cars. I want to know 'what a car is'. What does it do, i.e. what is it independent to the examples?

 

Ask and ye shall recive.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile

 

Thanks :D

 

Back to the topic, Chaos Gods differ from our own establishment of morality. Consider the God that many human beings worship at the present time. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the Shining Light, the Omnipotent, the Creator. He establishes the meaning of life, it's good and it's evil, the path mankind should follow. He is the Grand Architect (I think the Freemasons also call him something similar). As such he and his followers are capable of both good and evil actions because they believe God has defined such concepts and they cannot be violated.

 

Now consider the Chaos Gods, they are manifistations of human (and xeno) emotions. They were not there in the beginning, they did not define good and evil or a path mankind should follow and without emotion they would cease to exist. They are what their worshippers hold them to be. They are not actually Gods as we define them today because they are creations of man. Whereas God is the creator of man. The rules of Good and Evil do not apply to the Chaos Gods because they are simply 'the will of the people'. You could think of them as a fundamentalist government. It itself is not necessarily evil, but its followers can be. It is nothing more than an ideal, how people wield that ideal can then be conscrewed as Good or Evil (assuming such concepts exist). Does that make sense?

 

EDIT: Grammar

[Gree]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

 

Read the average Chaos novel, read the Word Bearer novels or Dead Sky Black Sun, could you tell me in any way shape or form would those guys consititue as ''good'' in any way.

[Marchosias]

So if something isn't evil it must be good? That doesn't make any sense

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Stalin killed off his own people and opressed nations.

 

Tzeentch daemons do the same but also eat babies and feast on human souls.

 

Which is more evil?

 

I don't think there is any way to justify the daemon summoning, baby-eating and callous backstabbing that Chaos and by extention Tzeentch practices. the average warp daemon would put the most dangerous psychopath today to shame.

 

Were not trying to justify the acts of the gods, but whether the gods themselves can be described 'evil'. If someone commits Evil does that make them 'evil'? read my above post. The Gods cannot act in any other way, therefore have an extremley limited free will, by our understanding, something with limited or no free will cannot be described as 'evil'.

 

Read the average Chaos novel, read the Word Bearer novels or Dead Sky Black Sun, could you tell me in any way shape or form would those guys consititue as ''good'' in any way.

 

And again; were not talking about Chaos Marines, or Chaos followers. The Gods themselves are entirely different.

 

Now consider the Chaos Gods, they are manifistations of human (and xeno) emotions. They were not there in the beginning, they did not define good and evil or a path mankind should follow and without emotion they would cease to exist. They are what their worshippers hold them to be. They are not actually Gods as we define them today because they are creations of man. Whereas God is the creator of man. The rules of Good and Evil do not apply to the Chaos Gods because they are simply 'the will of the people'. You could think of them as a fundamentalist government. It itself is not necessarily evil, but its followers can be. It is nothing more than an ideal, how people wield that ideal can then be conscrewed as Good or Evil (assuming such concepts exist). Does that make sense?

 

Nice point :) i agree - But one little point; The Gods technically have been there all along, the warp was created at the same instance as the Material universe, and as the warp is transcendent of time, they technically existed from the beginning, although at the same time they also came into consciousness in around M2 (slaanesh in M29) - Which is obviously beyond our comprehension!!

 

Quote from Codex: Chaos Daemons:

"...in the warp, things are different. The Realm of Chaos has no true time, and events do not occur in a strict sequence of cause then effect. In essence, Slaanesh has always existed in the warp, and yet has never existed."

[Gree]

So if something isn't evil it must be good? That doesn't make any sense

 

I never said that, were are you pulling that from?

[Marchosias]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

 

Read the average Chaos novel, read the Word Bearer novels or Dead Sky Black Sun, could you tell me in any way shape or form would those guys consititue as ''good'' in any way.

 

Currently we are examining if the Chaos Gods are evil; you were suggesting that both Chaos Gods and followers are evil and then back up your argument by asking me to find a 'good' in the Chaos literature.

 

If that wasn't the case then i don't understand why you included the above statement. It doesn't fit.

[Gree]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil

 

Read the average Chaos novel, read the Word Bearer novels or Dead Sky Black Sun, could you tell me in any way shape or form would those guys consititue as ''good'' in any way.

 

Currently we are examining if the Chaos Gods are evil; you were suggesting that both Chaos Gods and followers are evil and then back up your argument by asking me to find a 'good' in the Chaos literature.

 

If that wasn't the case then i don't understand why you included the above statement. It doesn't fit.

 

That's not what I said, I was saying that the chaos gods must be evil as they do not do anyhting remotely good in those novels. I don't know how you misinterpreted that.

 

Tzeentch daemons are pretty evil by their actions would you not say? Those same daemons are formed from Tzeentch, Tzeentch created them with full knowledge of thier actions. Thus he is evil.

 

Tzeentch was part of the Chaos gods who corrupted Horus and startes a massive war that led to the state of Mankind as it is today. That was an evil act and the gods did it and gloried in it. Tzeentch acpets sacrifices in his name. Unlike the Emperor he does not need it to survive, and unlike the Emperor he can tell people ot stop killing in his name.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

That's not what I said, I was saying that the chaos gods must be evil as they do not do anyhting remotely good in those novels. I don't know how you misinterpreted that.

 

Tzeentch daemons are pretty evil by their actions would you not say? Those same daemons are formed from Tzeentch, Tzeentch created them with full knowledge of thier actions. Thus he is evil.

 

Tzeentch was part of the Chaos gods who corrupted Horus and startes a massive war that led to the state of Mankind as it is today. That was an evil act and the gods did it and gloried in it. Tzeentch acpets sacrifices in his name. Unlike the Emperor he does not need it to survive, and unlike the Emperor he can tell people ot stop killing in his name.

 

My earlier quote explains why they cant be described as evil, they are a natural force in the 40k universe, as much as plants and insects are a natural part of our current planet!! i'll take the liberty of posting it again for you :(

 

In order for something to be classed evil it has to possess both Sentience and Free Will. - Sentience in order to be aware of what it is doing. and Free Will so it can choose whether or not to commit evil. (if such a concept exists - presuming it does!)

 

The Chaos Gods do not possess these characteristics.

 

They are sentient beings (in a sense of the word, and as far as we are aware), But they do not have free will, or it may be more accurate to say that have an extremley limitied free will.

 

Let me explain:

As they are manifestations of particular emotions they are those emotions. They know nothing else. They Have to act in accordance to those emotions. They do not have the choice to act any other way. For example Khorne can only act in ways which cause bloodshed, violence, anger etc. He Cannot show Mercy, such a concept is beyond him - to him it does not exist. the Warp Gods are not moral agents.

 

Calling a Chaos God evil is like calling a mental patient who has murdered evil. (poor example but couldnt think of another this early in the morning!) - the mental patient does not know what he is doing, or where he is, he does not have the judgement to decide whether to commit evil or not. Although we can agree that it is a terrible act he has committed, maybe even an 'evil' act, but he himself is not evil.

 

The Warp has become what it is today because of the Mortal races, their hidden desires, their ambitions, and feelings. To call the manifestations of these emotions 'evil' is to also say feeling anger is evil, because it empowers the Blood god. Having ambitions and hope is evil because it empowers the changer of ways. The gods are these emotions, nothing more. - You cannot help the emotions you feel, just like the Warp gods cannot help their actions.

[Gree]

That does not matter, Tzeentch does not have to kill people or eat souls for his plots, but he does anyway, therefore he is evil. Even then if someone commits enough evil acts then they are evil regardless of free will or not.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Even then if someone commits enough evil acts then they are evil regardless of free will or not.

 

Umm no... A being HAS to have free will in order to be evil. Any Philosopher would agree with me on that. Its only logical.

[Gree]

Even then if someone commits enough evil acts then they are evil regardless of free will or not.

 

Umm no... A being HAS to have free will in order to be evil. Any Philosopher would agree with me on that. Its only logical.

 

I disagree, evil is not a choice, it is an elemental way of life. I consider Tzeentch evil regardless anyway since he has the ability to stop killing people and do other plots yet choses not to.

[Child-of-the-Emperor]

Even then if someone commits enough evil acts then they are evil regardless of free will or not.

 

Umm no... A being HAS to have free will in order to be evil. Any Philosopher would agree with me on that. Its only logical.

 

I disagree, evil is not a choice, it is an elemental way of life. I consider Tzeentch evil regardless anyway since he has the ability to stop killing people and do other plots yet choses not to.

 

The differentiation between Moral Evil and Natural Evil you mean? Moral Evil is that committed by sentient beings and free will (all mortals races, etc in the case of 40k), Natural evil being natural evils like natural disasters (not evil in and off themselves, but the consequences are considered 'evil' by many), The Warp gods could be classed as a Natural Evil, that i would have no problem with, as although their sentient, they have limitied Autonomy.

 

And no i disagree that Tzeentch has the ability to stop killing people. He HAS to plot and scheme, will all mortals, in all aspects, his schemes are infinite, these schemes will involve 'killing people' to achieve such aims or objectives. He hasnt got the choice. - He can't just scheme in 'friendly' ways, He has to plot and scheme in ALL aspects. He is also the embodiment of Change; Change in ALL aspects, including the change involved in killing people!

[Gree]

The differentiation between Moral Evil and Natural Evil you mean? Moral Evil is that committed by sentient beings and free will (all mortals races, etc in the case of 40k), Natural evil being natural evils like natural disasters (not evil in and off themselves, but the consequences are considered 'evil' by many), The Warp gods could be classed as a Natural Evil, that i would have no problem with, as although their sentient, they have limitied Autonomy.

 

I'll settle on that.