Land raider popping smoke?

[Meatman]

Can I still fire a weapon with PoTMS?

[Sparhawk]

I would say yes. POTMS lets you fire one more weapon than you would typically be allowed to fire. Popping smoke allows you to fire zero weapons. 0+1=1. That's the way we're playing it in a campaign I'm in.

[JamesI]

Based on other stuff legal from POTMS (such as Storm Ravens moving 24 inches and still firing a gun) I would have to say it is legal.

[Seahawk]

Sparhawk and I agree. Smoke = 0. POTMS = +1.

 

0+1=1

[Acebaur]

I would say no. The PotMS rule does say that you can fire one more than normal but then goes on to list the instances when you can use it. (ie: moving or suffering a Shaken/stunned result) It doesn't say "For example......etc.." If it did then those would merely be examples of when you can use it. It says (essentially) this is when you can use it. Popping smoke is not listed and therefore you can't shoot.

[Koremu]

Yes, you can pop smoke and still fire. You can even move 12", pop smoke and still fire.

[Acebaur]

Yes, you can pop smoke and still fire. You can even move 12", pop smoke and still fire.

 

 

Reason being?

[Grey Mage]

Assuming C:SM for sake of argument.

 

'A land raider may fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted'.

 

Is the important part here. Its ability to fire at a seperate target is impressive, but immaterial. The third paragraph gives examples- hence the 'therefore' it starts with- but it not the whole of the rule.

 

Thus, if you move at cruising speed can normally fire nothing at all. With PotMS it can fire 1 weapon. A vehicle that pops smoke can likewise not shoot anything, and is overcome in the same way. This is supported by the wording of the restrictions:

 

For smoke launchers: 'The vehicle may not fire any of its weapons in the same turn as it used its smoke launchers, ....'

For cruising speed: 'Vehicles that moved at cruising speed may not fire.'

 

Wich is very much the same.

[Koremu]

Yes, you can pop smoke and still fire. You can even move 12", pop smoke and still fire.

 

 

Reason being?

Because a normal vehicle without PotMS could not fire. Therefore, a Land Raider with PotMS can fire one weapon.

 

PotMS is very simple. Figure out what happens to a normal tank in the circumstance and then add one extra weapon firing to it.

 

Just because there are two reasons you can't fire weapons has no effect on PotMS.

 

You could be Shaken, Smoked and moving 12" and still fire with PotMS

[thade]

Koremu et al are on the mark here.

 

THe writing of the PotMS rule is that you may fire one more gun than you would otherwise be allowed to. When you pop smoke, you're allowed to fire zero guns. One more than zero is one.

[Meatman]

Thanks for the replies, a related question, does the smoke also provide a cover save to the unit I target?

[JamesI]

Thanks for the replies, a related question, does the smoke also provide a cover save to the unit I target?

Nope.

[Ming]

As written, POTMS only would allow firing one additional weapon more if weapon firing is permitted. For a typical landraider: Stationary, fire all. Move 6 inches - fire two offensive weapons and all defensive weapons. Move 12 inches - fire one offensive weapon and all defensive weapons. More than 12 - no firing. Smoke - no firing. Anything different than that is probably more than what was designed. If Jervis fires after he smokes, he probably does it because your guys let him.

[thade]

Ming, you are mistaken.

 

The writing of the rule: "Power of the Machine Spirit: The vehicle can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted."

 

How many weapons are permitted once you pop smoke? Zero. PotMS increases this to one.

[Seahawk]

For a typical landraider: Stationary, fire all. Move 6 inches - fire two offensive weapons and all defensive weapons. Move 12 inches - fire one offensive weapon and all defensive weapons. More than 12 - no firing. Smoke - no firing.

This is wrong. It is move 6" - one offensive, all defensive. Move 6.1-12" - no firing. Smoke - no firing. POTMS allows you to fire when you move at cruising speed when normally you can't fire any; why is the benefit not the same with launching smokes?

[Acebaur]

The problem with your arguments is that you are all leaving out the second part of the rule, where it lists when you can use it. In this case those are not examples, but rather restrictions. GW usually will say For Example when just giving examples also usually ending with an "etc". There is only one other time when you would not be able to shoot (besides having no weapons) that isn't listed in the PotMS rule. That is popping smoke. They left it out because you can't do it.

[Grey Mage]

That is not a list of all the times you can use it, it is a set of examples.

[shatter]

I've seen this come up so many times it's not funny.

 

'Therefore, it can x, y, z.' Does NOT permit a, b, c.

 

The 'therefore it can

• ' is a completely closed list of situations.

 

It does not have a triple dot at the end of the list or 'etc' suggesting there are other situations in which the +1 shot is available. Nor is the list prefaced with 'for example;'.

 

However, there are definitely plenty of groups of players that do use it through smoke and believe they're using the rules correctly.

 

*shrug*

 

Before game start, find out which group you're playing with and carry on.

[thade]

That is not a list of all the times you can use it, it is a set of examples.

^ This.

[Typical Cricket]

I'm on the side that they can shoot in both scenarios, but like shatter said, it's probably best to make sure which side your opponent is on before you get into a game.

[thade]

I'm on the side that they can shoot in both scenarios, but like shatter said, it's probably best to make sure which side your opponent is on before you get into a game.

 

I 100% agree with both of you that disputes like this at your own local clubs are best settled with your respective gaming groups; but our purposes here are to try to reach a full understanding of the rules. (Which are seldom truly clear, I might add.)

[shatter]

Guys, by your logic, it can still fire when wrecked and pre-deployment. Those are times when vehicles normally cannot fire, no?

 

You can't pick and choose beyond the list given. It's a list of the times it is allowed. It doesn't say they're just examples, yet you do.

 

Why? What is it about that sentence that does it for you? I just don't see it!!eleven!!1

[thade]

Guys, by your logic, it can still fire when wrecked and pre-deployment. Those are times when vehicles normally cannot fire, no?

 

Pre-deployment it can't trace LOS to anything, so it automatically misses. :lol: Seriously, though, it's one thing to allow the Machine Spirit to fire when a smoke screen is up...another thing entirely to allow it when it's not on the table (and when it's Wrecked, it's not on the table: it's scenery). So if you want the picky-technical bit, I'd say that it can fire but can't trace LOS to anything in your two extreme cases, thus it auto-misses.

 

Why? What is it about that sentence that does it for you? I just don't see it!!eleven!!1

 

Speaking of picky, I'm pretty certain that the mods will not look kindly on your exclamation point mod; they are not a fan of one-three-three-seven here, even in jest.

[Brother Casman]

[snip]

You can't pick and choose beyond the list given. It's a list of the times it is allowed. It doesn't say they're just examples, yet you do.

 

Why? What is it about that sentence that does it for you? I just don't see it!!eleven!!1

Because the list does not say that those are the only times that PotMS allows shooting. It's implied but it's not stated outright.

[thade]

[snip]

You can't pick and choose beyond the list given. It's a list of the times it is allowed. It doesn't say they're just examples, yet you do.

 

Why? What is it about that sentence that does it for you? I just don't see it!!eleven!!1

Because the list does not say that those are the only times that PotMS allows shooting. It's implied but it's not stated outright.

 

Not stated outright = not a rule per RAW. "Implied" = RAI, which doesn't apply here.