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combat squads and reserves


JamesI

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A debate that has sprung up in the BA forum since the new FAQ.

 

Can a unit that is kept in reserve still use combat squads (not including Drop pods, that is allowed in the codex). Several posters were taking 10 Vanguard and splitting them when they arrive.

 

Here is a relevant question out of the BA FAQ, but I'm pretty sure it also appears in the regular marine FAQ.

 

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and

then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat

squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the

Drop Pod? (p32)

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not

break down into combat squads.

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Yea that appeared in all the marine codex FAQ's. Here's what I say:

 

The intent was to have it so you couldn't deploy one combat squad and leave the other in reserve in a rhino or somesuch.

 

The ruling is that no units in reserve can combat squad unless for some special wording (like drop pods currently).

 

Basically it's the exact same wordfail as the original Stormraven entry that was corrected in the FAQ about deepstriking; ie "if you do X, you can't do Y."

 

They needed that extra little sentence they weren't willing to write the first time, and here we are again. I expect a revision to that coming swiftly (since the Stormraven entry was repaired).

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Curiously I only found this in the BA and Vanilla FAQs, not in SW's.

 

I think the two ways people are interpreting it is

1: Units placed in reserve can
never
be broken into combat squads, or

2:Units can't be broken into combat squad when placed in reserve, but this doesn't rule out combat squadding when
deploying from
reserve

 

I'm at an impasse so I'd love to hear what you guys think.

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Space Wolves can't combat squad, so they wouldn't get that entry.

 

The Dark Angels have this same entry, and have had it since the original came out so long ago. However, no stink was made over it then. Why now? All the whiny BA players? :) :) (I jest).

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Space Wolves can't combat squad, so they wouldn't get that entry.

 

The Dark Angels have this same entry, and have had it since the original came out so long ago. However, no stink was made over it then. Why now? All the whiny BA players? :) :P (I jest).

 

Because the BA players don't read the DA FAQ:)

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This will likely be a long post, but this is my argument for allowing combat squads after reserves.

 

 

Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and

then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat

squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the

Drop Pod? (p32)

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not

break down into combat squads.

 

This has two possible interpretations. 1) That squads placed in reserve may never be split into combat squads at any point, no matter what. 2) That no squad may be split into combat squads while in reserve.

 

Despite the inaccurate wording that would lead people to believe the language supports the first interpretation, I believe the first has too many flaws to support, which I will outline now.

 

Combat Squads:

The decision to split the unit into combat squads, as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed. Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations. The one exception to this is a unit that arrives by Drop Pod - the player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks.

 

Reserves:

When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of their units and instead leave them in reserve.
Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it...

 

From this we get a number of things.

1) the decision to combat squad is made only when the unit is deployed.

2) Units held in reserve are not deployed until they are physically placed on the board after the reserve rolls.

3) The exception allowed for drop pods exists only because squads arriving by drop pod are not deployed, but rather, the pod deploys, and the squad then disembarks from the pod. Without this exception, the squad could not combat squad, as the squad itself is never technically deployed. Even then, this exception only arises in the context of deploying in separate locations.

 

If the first interpretation were followed, this would disallow the combat squadding from a drop pod, which we know GW wants to allow by viewing the exception listed above. If going by this interpretation it would prevent even drop podded squads from splitting, as this interpretation disallows any squad ever placed in reserve to combat squad. This goes against the state rules and intent by disallowing this exception.

 

To strengthen the second interpretation, this goes along with the rules. The rules state that a squad can only be split into combat squads when it is deployed. As the rules state, a unit held in reserves is not deployed until it is placed on the table. The second interpretation meshes well with the existing rules, and appears simply to be a restatement of them. 1) that squads cannot combat squad until it is deployed 2) a squad is not deployed until it is placed on the table 3) squads held in reserve are not yet deployed.

 

It seems clear to me that given the prior wording of the combat squads and reserves rules, that the second interpretation is the only possible choice.

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Like I said, I'm sure it's just wordfail like the Stormraven was. Now that there's an uproar over it because of a real tactic, I'm sure they'll slowly turn their attention back to fixing it. Until then, tactic gets a big ol' denied stamp sadly.
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The rule says units held in reserve can not be combat squadded, it doesn't say units in reserve can not be combat squadded while held in reserve.. so basically it overrides normal deployment rules and takes away the right to combat squad indefinitely. It's very simple, and makes sense, if you ask me. The unit is coming down in a rush as an emergency backup, it's not a normal deployment.
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That is a total rules lawyer approach to getting what you want.

 

G :)

 

Why would I want to not be able to combat squad? *scratching my head..*

 

I'm just reading what's written, isn't that the point or RAW? The FAQ says units placed in reserve can not be combat squadded.

 

A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not

break down into combat squads.

 

It doesn't say while they are in the reserve. It says, they can not be combat squadded. What part of this is rules lawyering?

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You've never been able to combat squad stuff you place in reserve because the decision is made when the unit is deployed.

 

A better way to word it would be that you can never reserve combat squads (because the unit must be deployed to trigger the decision to split into combat squads, and being able to reserve something requires not deploying it).

 

thus the answer to the question.

 

No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads.

 

A full breakdown.

 

- You can deploy a capable squad and combat squad it into two units (in the deployment phase).

- You can do the above and place one of the squads into a non-dedicated transport that has sufficient capacity.

- You can do the above and place one squad outside a transport dedicated to them and deploy the other in a transport dedicated to them

- You cannot deploy, combat squad, and then place one of those combat squads back into reserve, because the decision to reserve is made before you deploy. (this is the direct answer to the question in the FAQ)

- You cannot place a unit into reserve and break it down into combat squads (thus each unit would roll it's own reserve roll) because the triggerpoint for the unit to combat squad is that it be deployed (this is the implicit reasoning behind the answer to the question contained in the FAQ

- You cannot place a unit in a dedicated transport (eg. tactical in a Rhino) into reserve, and combat squad as a) you can't have two units existing in the one transport as it's deployed, and it's too late to make the combat squad desicion after the transport moves and disembarks as you've then gone past the decision point for combat squading.

- An exception is provided for units arriving via drop-pod, they are given the option to combat squad as they disembark from a drop-pod.

- You can combat squad a unit at the point it deploys (onto your board edge via reserves)

- You can combat squad a unit at the point it deploys (via outflank)

- You can combat squad a unit at the point it deploys (via Deepstrike)

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Honestly Black Orange this affects you just as strongly as it does us. You just like being combative and it is really not helping.

 

I for one am not going to play your game.

 

I can understand Seahawk's stance in this matter. He didn't write the rule and has no ground to say yea or nay.

 

I will not throw out an entire rule book out over a poorly worded answer on a FAQ that is irrelevant to the tactic we are accustomed to using.

 

Can we please try to keep this on topic with less arguments?

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This is how i read it...rulebook/faq/codex combined.

 

Unit A for Awesome wants to deep strike, and then combat squad.

 

While in reserve, it is held as 1 unit.

 

upon deep striking, it is rolled for as one unit.

 

But upon deployment, it splits into 2 different units of combat squads.

 

The rules for deepstriking list it as being deploying , the rules for combat squads list it as when it is being deployed.

 

 

 

 

As for people continuing to use the drop pod/combat squad example...please stop. You are comparing embarked troops/transport vehicle rules to deep striking...it just doesnt work that way.

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Page 94 in the main rulebook, ROLLING FOR RESERVES states: "Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it,"

 

Page 23 of Codex: Blood Angels, COMBAT SQUADS states: "The decision to split the unit into combat squads as well as which models go into each combat squad, must be made when the unit is deployed. Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations. The one exception to this is a unit that arrive by drop pod - the player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks."

 

 

I think the intent of the Drop Pod portion of the entry is to clarify that the Drop Pod is the only VEHICLE in which Combat Squads are allowed to disembark from. i.e. Ten Tactical Marines inside a Rhino cannot choose to combat squad when arriving from reserve.

 

 

Taking those two entries straight from both rulebooks tells my heart of hearts that nothing actually changed. I'm not in any way shape or form a rules lawyer, I'm absolutely Rules as Intended and HATE playing our local Lawyer. I'm just interpreting it the best that I can.

 

I am glad that the POTMS vs. Flat Out was acknowledged though. That was a bit of an argument in our LGS.

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This is how i read it...rulebook/faq/codex combined.

 

Unit A for Awesome wants to deep strike, and then combat squad.

 

While in reserve, it is held as 1 unit.

 

upon deep striking, it is rolled for as one unit.

 

But upon deployment, it splits into 2 different units of combat squads.

 

The rules for deepstriking list it as being deploying , the rules for combat squads list it as when it is being deployed.

 

This FTW

 

ant1clock

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If you could do that then the FAQ would have said so. This is just another reach around.

 

I'm not seeing any part of any FAQ that says units deploying from reserve may not combat squad.

Where are you reading this?

 

 

 

 

Units placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads.

 

=/=

 

Units deploying from reserve may not break down into combat squads.
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If you could do that then the FAQ would have said so. This is just another reach around.

 

I'm not seeing any part of any FAQ that says units deploying from reserve may not combat squad.

Where are you reading this?

 

 

 

 

Units placed in reserve may not break down into combat squads.

 

=/=

 

Units deploying from reserve may not break down into combat squads.

 

where did you read that second quote? because if thats in the rulebook somewhere that blows..

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