Cmdr Shepard Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Does anyone find it ideologically or intertextually significant that "Janus" is taken from the name of god who is represented as two-headed, or more commonly, two-faced? Does it suggest something about the Grey Knights, through characters such as Crowe, who wield the trappings of Chaos against the creatures of Chaos? Just talking about "reference": Janus is even the name of a Stargate character. He is the "Ancient" scientist responsible for many technological innovation, he is of course named after the god you quoted. The question is: what inspired Matt Ward? The god or the character? By the way looking around the web, on the various wikia about warhammer 40k, I found these informations about the first Grand Masters. I don't know if the data are accurate and currently I'm even unable to check the soruce. If any of you have more detailed info please share with us. Here it's the list I found: Supreme Grand Master Janus: he has been officially confirmed as the first Supreme Grand Master. Grand Master Garviel Loken, formerly of the Luna Wolves (Garro:Legion of One is quoted as source) Grand Master Iacton Qruze, formerly of the Luna Wolves ( Last Remembrancer short story quoted as source) Grand Master Nathaniel Garro , formerly of the Death Guard. The famous main character of many novels. ( Garro: Oath of the Moment quoted a source about his role within GK ranks) Grand Master Varren , formerly of the World Eaters ( Garro: Legion of One) Grand Master Tyloss Rubio, formerly of the Ultramarines (Garro: Oath of the Moment) NOTE: It's probable the sources only hint a close relationship between these characters and the Inquisition. Their inclusion in GK rnaks maybe only speculative. This is however the most detailed list I found. Let me know if it is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oiad Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 It's good that you've added that it's highly speculative at the moment. I can't remember which writer said it but there was an interview somewhere about how fans shouldn't just assume that the names such as the one's above will be the first grandmasters. Of course it could just be some poor attempt to add mystery to the proceedings in an attempt to cover up the obvious too. Rather than assuming too much it's probably best just to treat them as mentors towards the first generation until the story has been fully fleshed out and we know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 It's good that you've added that it's highly speculative at the moment. I can't remember which writer said it but there was an interview somewhere about how fans shouldn't just assume that the names such as the one's above will be the first grandmasters. Of course it could just be some poor attempt to add mystery to the proceedings in an attempt to cover up the obvious too. Rather than assuming too much it's probably best just to treat them as mentors towards the first generation until the story has been fully fleshed out and we know for sure. Personally I think the chances they are the first Grand Masters are very high. A "recruitment mission" for the Sigillite, the connection with what appears to be the recently founded Inquisition etc, are all interesting clues. Beside C:GK mentioned several of the first Grand Masters came from the traitors legions, individuals who remain loyal to the Emperor and manking when their fellow brethren fell into betrayal and corruption. A very epic story background for GK. We'll have to wait for any confirmation, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Rawl Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 I am dissapointed somewhat that Garro is no the Supreme Grand Master, guy has down all the work and leg breaking to get everyone together and is then given vice president role...then again that does smack of real life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDVoid Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Now what I'm wondering is do the original grand masters have to be librarians? Just because all gray knights are psykers does not mean they must be librarians, remeber gray knights have their own librarians, they are not an army of librarians, they all have some latent psykic power but can not wield the force of their mind completly as a librarian can. But I digress, the point I ment to make is that before the Emperors internment into th golden throne Malcadore who had been keeping the seat warm transfered the last of his life force into the Emperor so he could make hs final decrees. Is it not then plausable that the Emperor could transfer some of his power into the original grand masters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 The original Grand Master most likely weren't psykers at all, but all of their replacements were. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakehunter52 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Does anyone find it ideologically or intertextually significant that "Janus" is taken from the name of god who is represented as two-headed, or more commonly, two-faced? Does it suggest something about the Grey Knights, through characters such as Crowe, who wield the trappings of Chaos against the creatures of Chaos? From Wiki, I find the god Janus suggests something potentially intertextually dangerous: "While the fundamental nature of Janus is debated, the complex set of its functions may be seen as organised around a simple principle: in the view of most modern scholars that of presiding over all beginnings and transitions, whether abstract or concrete, sacred or profane." These concepts called "beginnings and transitions", sound a great deal like the concept called "change". This concept of "change" is not part of the standard Amalathian-Monodominant vocabulary that has commonly been associated with the Puritan spectrum of the Inquisition, which has in turn been associated with the Chamber Militant Grey Knights. Dare I suggest that we are being played? Similar thoughts did vaguely cross my mind, but not with such sinister motives. If Ward is hinting at a diabolic future in store for the chapter then the outrage heard at the moment will pale by comparison with what's to come. When it was hinted on Tempus Fugitives that there could be such a character called 'Janus', it initially conjured up the links between Janus and January - the beginning of the new year used both as a time to reflect on the past and look forward to the future. In that sense I believe Grand Master Janus felt it was his duty to always remember to how the warp had tainted the Astartes in the past and how it was now amongst his oaths to make sure such heresy could never take place again. I doubt it is anything of sinister of nature but Oiad's take is very interesting (and probably true). My first impressions were that Janus was the leading factor on the current Grey Knight philosophy of "Victory no matter the cost". Military tends to be stoic in nature, always preparing for the last war, never the next one. Always looking back. Janus was able to see that a Puritan outlook, while considerably safer than other paths, would not be enough to overcome such a great foe. Thus, he was the one that created proper procedures and doctrine that would allow the Grey Knights to act with more volatile means while still retaining their purity and cause. Kinda like building up your immune system I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Augustine Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 Take it a step further. How many Grand Masters? How many stars on the Chaos symbol? Hmmmm.... I could totally see that as being one Grand Master/Brotherhood to battle each Wind of Chaos (If you'll forgive the usage of a WFB term) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 I know six of them I believe. 4 I'm certain of and 2 not so sure. 1. Garviel Loken 2. Nathaniel Garrow 3. Varren 4. Rubio Unsure Qurze Mmohtep sources Garro Legion of One Galaxy in flames Battle for the Abyss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 The original Grand Master most likely weren't psykers at all, but all of their replacements were. SJ wasnt a problem back then . as part of his great projects the emperor created implants that were boosting human brains to work like a psykers one and even weak psykers were boosted to highest power levels when implanted with it . considering malc gave the future GK the best of the best gear , they could have also been give those or at least the blue prints to make them . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 2, 2012 Share Posted April 2, 2012 Out of curiosity if you have read Galaxy in Flames, Eisenstein and Fulgrim does anyone have any idea of what happened to Ancient Rylanor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WimvH Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Then again, could the two heads of Janus not be looking into real space and the warp... As such symbolic for the warrior-sorcery character of the Grey Knights? At any rate, I actually read some of the stories quotes as the source material, and there are only hints in there, nothing definite. As far as I remember Gavriel Loken is dead, killed on Istvan by Abbadon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Their traitor Mournival brothers, Ezekyle Abaddon and Little Horus, landed on Istvaan to kill Loken and Torgaddon. In the following fight, Torgaddon was killed, but the building in which Loken was fighting Abaddon was crushed by the Dies Irae, an Imperator-class Titan. Loken was badly wounded, but despite his injuries, he survived and was later retrieved from Istvaan III by Captain Nathaniel Garro, who was in service of Malcador the Sigillite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WimvH Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Their traitor Mournival brothers, Ezekyle Abaddon and Little Horus, landed on Istvaan to kill Loken and Torgaddon. In the following fight, Torgaddon was killed, but the building in which Loken was fighting Abaddon was crushed by the Dies Irae, an Imperator-class Titan. Loken was badly wounded, but despite his injuries, he survived and was later retrieved from Istvaan III by Captain Nathaniel Garro, who was in service of Malcador the Sigillite. Hm. I'm actually disappointed by that. Soit, if t's like that, it's like that. Didn't read about his rescue... Loken was such a nice, tragic hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 Their traitor Mournival brothers, Ezekyle Abaddon and Little Horus, landed on Istvaan to kill Loken and Torgaddon. In the following fight, Torgaddon was killed, but the building in which Loken was fighting Abaddon was crushed by the Dies Irae, an Imperator-class Titan. Loken was badly wounded, but despite his injuries, he survived and was later retrieved from Istvaan III by Captain Nathaniel Garro, who was in service of Malcador the Sigillite. Hm. I'm actually disappointed by that. Soit, if t's like that, it's like that. Didn't read about his rescue... Loken was such a nice, tragic hero. from pages 390 to the end of Galaxy in flames it says about Loken being alive. You don't read about it as it's in Garro: Legion of One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightCommander_Almaric Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 What if Garro, Loken, Rubio, Varran & Kurze are the training Cadre, They have the experience of the Great Crusade and as part of the HH, managed to avoid falling to temptations of chaos (for some of them) giving them quite a strong will. They go into the warp curtosy of Malcador when he hides Titan during the siege of Terra, where they spend the rest of their lives trainning the first grey knights including Janus, the first GrandMarshall. the original malcador recruits (Garro et al) are not Grey knights but its elite training team. Its written in current fluff that when a new founding of a SM chapter is enacted that training cadres of parent chapters or sponsors are in place to bring the fresh faced marines up to speed. This could of been the first example of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
volrath8754 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 What I want to know is what are the 8 grandmasters titles? Ie: Master of the fleet, armory, then what???? apparently they are all in charge of something so what are the other 6??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I think they're based off the Space Wolves great companies. Not sure how that works but it certaintly makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 If Garro et al. are the training team, you think they're still alive? As these old school astartes are essentially immortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightCommander_Almaric Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 True, but maybe they died in battle, and buried in the bottom of Titan. The reason there not mentioned in the Codex is that Black Library are still writing the fiction around them (All Theory), and maybe Matt Ward was able to leave it vague enough to allow BL to finish the story as part of the HH audio/book series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Please let them be alive. Loken is the best ever! If GW gave him stats and points anyone have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 HQ Matt Wards Garviel Loken, Surpeme Survivor of Orbital Bombardments - 50 points Garviel Loken WS10, BS10, S6, T8, W10, I6, A5, Ld10, 2+ Save Unit Composition 1 Unit Type Infantry (Unique) Wargear Herey Era Power Armour (Aritificer Armour) Bolter Nemesis Chain Axe (Chose to either work as a NFSword or NDH. Can split attacks between the two. The NDH striks at Lokens Initiative value, rather than I1. IF used as a NFSword, Loken gains an extra d6 to penetration rolls) Iron Halo Frag Genades Krak Grenades Psyk-out Grenades Rad Grenades Psycotroke Grenades Melta Bombs Psybolt Ammunition Bolt Pistol (Can be used as a second weapon with Lokens Nemesis Chain Axe) Special Rules Eternal Warrior (Come on, he survived a planet killing Orbital Bombardment...) Feel No Pain (See above) Fearless (Of course...) Grand Strategy The Aegis Prefered Enemy (everyone) Psycher (Mastery Level 2) Fleet (to be able to outrun Orbital Bombardments...) Furious Charge "I Shall Return!" Psychic Powers Psychic Communion Hammerhand "I Shall Return", when Garviel Loken either loses his last wound, or is removed from play, place a token where his mini was. At the start of each turn, roll a d6. On a 2+, Loken returns to play with full Wounds, anywhere on the board you like. In inpassable terrain, locked in combat with another unit, anywhere. Resolve the rest of the game as usual. If Loken is on board on the last turn, he doesn't give a kill point. Not matter the ammount of times he's been removed from play or lost his last wound. :D Edit: Yes, just like Crowe, Loken isn't an Independent Character! :) Edit2: Yes, 50 points. Can't let those Lone Wolves have all the fun, right? Ward's got to trump them somehow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WimvH Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Matt Wards Garviel Loken, Surpeme Survivor of Orbital Bombardments - 50 points LOL! Too funny :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 :D A little too much? Don't want him overshadowing Draigo. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torgaddon666 Posted April 6, 2012 Share Posted April 6, 2012 Loken could take Draigo anyday. Here is my take on Loken/Cereberus Loken/Cerberus- 175 Loken: WS: 8 BS: 5: S: 5 T: 6(survived Abaddon and an Orbital Bombardment) W: 5(Same reason as Toughness) I: 5(he's got to be smart but he's no Dante) LD: 10 Sv: 2+ Cerberus: WS: 8 BS: 4 S: 6 T: 6 W: 5 I: 5 A: 7 LD: 8 Sv: 4+ (broken armour no favours) Wargear Broken Armour (Cerberus) Cerberus Bite (Chainsword which is treated as a power weapon) Bark of Cerberus (Bolt pistol) Frag and Krak grenades Iron Halo Artificer Armour (Loken) Master Crafted Power sword Master Crafted Bolter Defensive and Offensive grenades Special Rules Preferred enemy (both) Fleet (Both) Reckless Charge (Cerberus +2 attacks +1 Strength) Feel No Pain (both) Grand Strategy (Loken) Fleet Furious Charge Preferred Enemy Pysker (lvl 2) Instability (roll a D6 1-3 Loken is sane 4-6 Loken becomes Cerberus) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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