Age of Darkness - Rules of Engagment/Savage Weapons

[Balthamal]

Having spent the day blasting through Age of Darkness, I cant help but notice that two stories in particular have set out to quash a few long standing perceptions. Those being Rules of Engagement and Savage Weapons.

 

OK first up Rules of Engagement by Graham McNeil

 

 

In this particular story we get giving the impression that even back in M31 the codex astartes was getting a little too much reverential treatment. Thought it was a very interesting spin to have Gulliman state that it shouldn't be held up as a be all and end all for warefare. Is even more intriguing when you consider the Emperor indirectly set the Heresy in motion by smacking down Lorgar for worshiping him as a god only for just that to happen a mere few years after his internment in the throne. Nice little piece of irony if you ask me

 

 

 

 

Savage Weapons - A-D-B

 

 

This was the best story in the collection for me with the possible exception of Little Horus. We finally get to see which way the Lion's loyalty is swinging, or at the very least the perception of where that loyalty lies. He could of course be playing the long game. The Night Haunter was excellently written yet again - it's high time he got a novel devoted to him. One of the best little nuggets of possibility is thrown right in at the end where the Lion comments that Gulliman is also eyeing up the position of Warmaster should Horus be defeated. A nice dark side to Gulliman would make him interesting, at long last

 

 

Has anyone else had a browse through these yet and come to the same conclusions?

 

 

As a small aside to the 2nd short story listed above, Sevatar. This man is pure evil! It's a shame he ends up KIA as he could have turned into a psychotic murderer on a par with Khârn. But a chain-spear?? I want copyright for that because that's what my chaos lord has

[Ethrion]

I really enjoyed Savage Weapons as well - not only because it finally clears up where the Lion's loyalties really lay but in the way A D-B wrote it. Pretty much making it so that Curze was talking about us when he said that's how the Lion will be perceived. It was brilliant!

 

I must admit though I didn't get the impression that Guilliman was eyeing up the position of Warmaster. I think it was more a result of the times the Lion was living in. The unthinkable had happened - Horus and lots of his brothers had turned traitor, it was a full blown space marine civil war that had been thought impossible. In this new era of mistrust and not really know what the hell was going on or what people's real motives were it appeared to the Lion that Guilliman was possibly up to something as well.

[Legatus]

The biggest issue in "Rules of Engagement" is certainly the retcon that the Ultramarines did not just lear of the Heresy when the attack on Terra was already under way (as all previous Ultramarine sources had stated), but instead knew right from the start that the Horus Heresy was going on, but decided not to fight against the traitors. Guilliman just let it happen, when he could have prevented more damage. The Emperor would most likely still be alive if the Ultramarines Legion had acted sooner. In the previous fluff, they couldn't be cause they didn't know sooner. In the new fluff, they knew, but deliberately chose not to act. That is a very fundamental change in their background story.

[KJB]

That is a very fundamental change in their background story.

 

I know, beautiful isn't it? Now I finally know why I've never really warmed to them all these years...

[Gree]

That is a very fundamental change in their background story.

 

I know, beautiful isn't it? Now I finally know why I've never really warmed to them all these years...

 

No, certainly not beautiful, this has not been recieved well by Ultramarine fans.

[Dorns Padawan]

Yes I admit myself too was a little taken back when I read Rules of Engagement. Im sure with new bits of fluff coming with every new HH book most if not all Legions knew about the plans of Horus but 'Warp storms' prevented any of them reaching Terra. Still, addedd with Mr A D-Bs veiw, certainly gives a very interesting take on the UM & their Primarch.

 

My only gripe with Savage Weapons was

when the Lion first drew blood against Curze, a shot to the abdomen surely wasn't going to kill him, if he was that lightening quick & that much of a tactical genius, surely a throat shot or something?

anyway that is the first ever gripe I have had of AD-Bs work.

 

As much as I loved Savage WEapons, surprisingly my fav story was the Iron Warriors story. That was a nice surprise & not what I was expecting.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i just think its too early in the Heresy to declare the UM traitors outright.

 

from some, their delay will cost the Emperor his life.

I am choosing to see it as their delay saved the Emperor's dream.

 

WLK

[calgar101]

Well he's described as loyal in Thousand Sons by Magnus, is at the Emperor's side in The First Heretic and in one of the other HH stories Valdor says how it is his job to protect the Emperor and the job of the Primarchs (and their legions) to protect the Imperium and the two should never be confused... I forget which book it comes from and the exact quote.. So yeah whilst initially this information leaves a bitter taste and goes against EVERYTHING we know but we just have to wait.

[Candleshoes]

My only gripe with Savage Weapons was

when the Lion first drew blood against Curze, a shot to the abdomen surely wasn't going to kill him, if he was that lightening quick & that much of a tactical genius, surely a throat shot or something?

anyway that is the first ever gripe I have had of AD-Bs work.

 

I think your gripe was actually the whole point, for it to convey the force of his answer and message, but not be fatal (ie: the blow was not intended to kill). The Lion was too honorable to kill in that way, but inflicting the "point" of his response and position on the matter.

 

I also believe he thought he simply outclassed Konrad in the skill of arms (as shown by his taunts about swordsmanship), and likely he thought if it came down to a duel between the two of them, with no one interfering, that he could kill Curze with certainty. Earlier in the short story, the author goes out of his way to make the point about the Lion for the first time ever, "speaking of possibilities" (in regards to the chnace to end the conflict), which as a being of "pragmatism and certainties" this goes against the Lion's nature. This was very powerful and gives weight and credit to why he not only went along with the Night Lord's bait, but why it was him who chose to limit the meeting party to just a primarch and two honor guard.

[Balthamal]

That is a very fundamental change in their background story.

 

I know, beautiful isn't it? Now I finally know why I've never really warmed to them all these years...

 

No, certainly not beautiful, this has not been recieved well by Ultramarine fans.

 

I can certainly see why they would not be happy but to the rest of 40K fandom as a whole it's very welcome indeed. I can't speak for the whole but for me, FINALLY there's a different side to the shining perfect smurfs we've been force fed for countless years. Finally I can at the very least have the tiniest bit of admiration for them knowing that they took the long view and did what they thought was right - which happened to be so very very wrong. Mr McNeil, I salute you.

 

As for savage weapons, I want more Sevatar

[Gree]

I can certainly see why they would not be happy but to the rest of 40K fandom as a whole it's very welcome indeed. I can't speak for the whole but for me, FINALLY there's a different side to the shining perfect smurfs we've been force fed for countless years. Finally I can at the very least have the tiniest bit of admiration for them knowing that they took the long view and did what they thought was right - which happened to be so very very wrong. Mr McNeil, I salute you.

 

Except none of those decisions make sense from past fluff and even an in-universe perspective and derails what he know of the Ultramarine's character.

 

The Ultramarines already have enough flak directed at their fluff without this.

[Balthamal]

I can certainly see why they would not be happy but to the rest of 40K fandom as a whole it's very welcome indeed. I can't speak for the whole but for me, FINALLY there's a different side to the shining perfect smurfs we've been force fed for countless years. Finally I can at the very least have the tiniest bit of admiration for them knowing that they took the long view and did what they thought was right - which happened to be so very very wrong. Mr McNeil, I salute you.

 

Except none of those decisions make sense from past fluff and even an in-universe perspective and derails what he know of the Ultramarine's character.

 

The Ultramarines already have enough flak directed at their fluff without this.

 

Granted. It seems to me that this is another one of those things that divides people's opinion over the HH series. Some want to have all of this history opened up and revealed whilst others are happy with what has been explained prior to the books being published.

 

Think the best way to sum it up is to say we now feel sorry for most of the villains for one reason or another and the heroes are not as clear cut and wonderful as has been previously been believed. Personally I like it, but its all a matter of personal preference at the end of the day.

 

Something to keep in mind would be the fact that Grim Dark had to start somewhere, and it seems the decisions been made to have it start in the HH. Read into that what you will

[Gree]

I can certainly see why they would not be happy but to the rest of 40K fandom as a whole it's very welcome indeed. I can't speak for the whole but for me, FINALLY there's a different side to the shining perfect smurfs we've been force fed for countless years. Finally I can at the very least have the tiniest bit of admiration for them knowing that they took the long view and did what they thought was right - which happened to be so very very wrong. Mr McNeil, I salute you.

 

Except none of those decisions make sense from past fluff and even an in-universe perspective and derails what he know of the Ultramarine's character.

 

The Ultramarines already have enough flak directed at their fluff without this.

 

Granted. It seems to me that this is another one of those things that divides people's opinion over the HH series. Some want to have all of this history opened up and revealed whilst others are happy with what has been explained prior to the books being published.

 

Think the best way to sum it up is to say we now feel sorry for most of the villains for one reason or another and the heroes are not as clear cut and wonderful as has been previously been believed. Personally I like it, but its all a matter of personal preference at the end of the day.

 

Something to keep in mind would be the fact that Grim Dark had to start somewhere, and it seems the decisions been made to have it start in the HH. Read into that what you will

 

I have no opposition to stuff being expanded, this relavation is done in such a porr manner that violates prievous fluff that I don't think it was very well implemented at all.

 

Ah, well, at least I have Know No Fear to redeem the Ultramarines character for me.

[Captain Idaho]

Here is what I said about the "revelations" in Rule of Engagement in a different thread. I'm sure STUDARIUS won't mind me mentioning our discussion since we were kind of on the same page anyway:

 

STUCARIUS: Well you are making assumptions on the context of the word loyalty and what it means to people. I haven't had the pleasure of reading this story yet but from what spoilers I've spoilt myself with here (couldn't resist!) it seems that Guilliman is the most loyal and yet the least of the loyal Primarchs.

 

He is trying to preserve the Emperor's vision and the work they have strived to achieve all this time. He is so loyal to the Emperor he would allow the Emperor to die to preserve what the Emperor created. Sounds contradicory but we have to consider Guilliman understood the nature of the Emperor and that he would die for his vision.

 

This is obviously going to be controversial, especially since it is a decision at odds with the intention of some of the other Primarchs. People will be split between whether they agree the loyalty to the Emperor the man, or his work, is more important.

 

I must say though, you are exaggerating STUCARIUS; about Guilliman being a worse traitor than anyone else. He is working towards the ideals and greater cause of humanity and the whole point of the Great Crusade. He has a plan, though we don't know that is yet. Throwing the words "traitor" around betrays your own interpretation of actions and the bias of your own post.

 

For my own part, I have no problems with this "revelation". It isn't particularly anything new when you think about it. Guilliman has been credited with re-forging the Imperium in the time of the Scouring so we know his actions here are compatible with the subsequent history of the Imperium. We also know of his super-human strategic faculty of Guilliman and ability to plan in advance, now we know that he is so good at this he is planning even further.

 

Hell it is appropriate his Legion are engaging in wargames against the Salamanders, as it transpires they were one of the Legions that sided against him post Heresy. Shows his planning yet again.

 

It makes sense. He saved the Imperium by re-forging it from the ashes of the Heresy. He isn't a coward we all know that, we also know he saves Dorn at a later date so not a Traitor as such, rather his direction is at odds with those of his brothers. When you evaluate it objectively, he was right. He knew the Emperor would approve of his actions and that of his Legion. He was proved right as the Imperium endured instead of being consumed by the flames of Heresy and the Alien races circling the wound Imperium to finish it off.

 

I like the new revelation.

 

PERSONAL OPINION HERE

 

I actually see Guilliman as the only truly self-less Primarch. Yes it appears (and people will argue this is the case) that he sets himself up as the de-facto head of the Imperium, yet I believe he does so without arrogance. He knows he is the only person who can do the job. Maybe Kor Phaedron was telling the truth about him being the true heir to the Emperor, sharing his ideals and being his mirror? Possible though too early to tell.

 

Guilliman is practical and seen as cold and calculating by some, such is his penchant for doing the "right thing" without emotional attachment getting in the way. The Primarchs (and fan base of 40K) will not understand his detachment to sentiment and emotional baggage, but he is truly the Emperor's heir. After all, the Emperor persecuted the Crusade clinically and definitely cracked eggs to make his Imperial omlette.

 

So you could say that some of us Ultramarines fans are happy enough with the new turn.

[MadDoc]

I find it really funny that so many are saying they're not going to let a single story, that suggests Guilliman was deliberately not acting during the Heresy, change their view of him and the UM as the "Hero" Legion, and yet so many people were so very quick to label the Lion as a traitor based solely on Astelan's story (ignoring the context and the source of the story (his story wasn't even internally consistant)) from Angels of Darkness.

 

Its hilarious... and, I imagine in some cases, just a little bit hypocritical. :P

[Captain Idaho]

No, it's only hypocritical if the same people who criticised the Lion are then defending Guilliman. Since I have never stated the Lion is a traitor, my liking Guilliman is not hypocritical.

 

But thanks for the insult all the same.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Having spent the day blasting through Age of Darkness, I cant help but notice that two stories in particular have set out to quash a few long standing perceptions. Those being Rules of Engagement and Savage Weapons.

 

OK first up Rules of Engagement by Graham McNeil

 

 

In this particular story we get giving the impression that even back in M31 the codex astartes was getting a little too much reverential treatment. Thought it was a very interesting spin to have Gulliman state that it shouldn't be held up as a be all and end all for warefare. Is even more intriguing when you consider the Emperor indirectly set the Heresy in motion by smacking down Lorgar for worshiping him as a god only for just that to happen a mere few years after his internment in the throne. Nice little piece of irony if you ask me

 

*Imagines Legatus having conniptions*

 

The biggest issue in "Rules of Engagement" is certainly the retcon that the Ultramarines did not just hear of the Heresy when the attack on Terra was already under way (as all previous Ultramarine sources had stated), but instead knew right from the start that the Horus Heresy was going on, but decided not to fight against the traitors. Guilliman just let it happen, when he could have prevented more damage. The Emperor would most likely still be alive if the Ultramarines Legion had acted sooner. In the previous fluff, they couldn't be cause they didn't know sooner. In the new fluff, they knew, but deliberately chose not to act. That is a very fundamental change in their background story.

 

*Hmm, he seems to be taking it well.... unless he cannot release the pressure and it is merely accumulating.... dangerous*

 

That is a very fundamental change in their background story.

 

I know, beautiful isn't it? Now I finally know why I've never really warmed to them all these years...

 

*Hmm, sticking in the boots. I hope he doesn't kick the lid off Legatus....*

 

I just think its too early in the Heresy to declare the UM traitors outright.

 

WLK

 

*Wow, that is harsh bro. I guess you'll just do it later then....?*

 

I've got nothing to say in this thread. :P

[Captain Idaho]

:) You are funny.

[greatcrusade08]

Its nice that ultramarines are getting some of thier darker aspects shown, but i have a real issue with anyone who uses it to promulgate ultra-hatred in any form.

 

i shouldnt be surprised, but sadly i still have high hopes that people will grow beyond the playground mentality.

 

this new info, is merely a taster of a full story yet to be documented, we cant make assumptions yet.. we do however have alot of other fluf to balance it with..

like the fact that ultramarines saved the imperium during the scouring and are considered one of te most loyal chapters in M41.

its more likely to be a case of "lesser of two evils"decision making him seem like a traitor

[malika666]

Why is this immediately darker? I view it as more pragmatic. The Ultramarines had received a very heavy beating at Calth and were definitely not ready to immediately head off to Terra. In other words, they had to pull back first, regroup and then move towards Terra. I imagine that the surviving recruits would then train in fighting against other Astartes.

[Gree]

I find it really funny that so many are saying they're not going to let a single story, that suggests Guilliman was deliberately not acting during the Heresy, change their view of him and the UM as the "Hero" Legion, and yet so many people were so very quick to label the Lion as a traitor based solely on Astelan's story (ignoring the context and the source of the story (his story wasn't even internally consistant)) from Angels of Darkness.

 

Its hilarious... and, I imagine in some cases, just a little bit hypocritical. :D

 

Well it's a good thing I never accused the Lion of being a traitor now is it?

[KJB]

Thing is, after reading the short story, Graham McNeil (for me anyway) has done what he has been unable to do in his entire Ventris series (as good as it is, and I must say I have enjoyed them all) and that is to make me genuinely interested in the Ultramarines.

 

After the truly bland characters in "Battle for the Abyss" I had no desire to read about the ultra's again, but with this one short story he has changed all of that, I'm actually looking forward to the battle of Calth novel.

 

They're clearly not traitors in the sense of the Sons of Horus etc, but they certainly aren't whiter than white, which prompted my earlier comment saying that this change in approach was beautiful and not a nod towards some random ultra hate...

[MadDoc]

No, it's only hypocritical if the same people who criticised the Lion are then defending Guilliman. Since I have never stated the Lion is a traitor, my liking Guilliman is not hypocritical.

 

But thanks for the insult all the same.

Really? :D

Its hilarious... and, I imagine in some cases, just a little bit hypocritical. :rolleyes:

If you, or anybody else, imagine that was directed at (or even applicable to) you, then that owes more to you than it does to what was written. Of course, in some instances it will be completely on the money.

 

Seriously dude, if I'd made a blanket remark saying that everyone who was dismissing the suggestion from the story of Guilliman being traitorous was being hypocritical, then I could understand you getting your back up, but since I didn't, I have to question why you've reacted in such a prickly manner.

[Gree]

They're clearly not traitors in the sense of the Sons of Horus etc, but they certainly aren't whiter than white, which prompted my earlier comment saying that this change in approach was beautiful and not a nod towards some random ultra hate...

 

It will result in said ''ultra hate''. Look at A D-B's scene in A First Heretic about the missing Legions. A D-B went out on record saying that it was meant to be two soldiers joking around yet most people took it as total fact. How do you think the greater fan community is going to react to this news?

 

I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.

[bjornsval]

Neither of these stories put the Ultras in a good light. Over the years the question has always been, did lion El'johnson purposley take his time getting to Terra. I think that has been solved somewhat with Guilliam being the one not going to Terra and maybe being the reason for the DA's late arrival