Space Wolves, Night Lords and World Eaters

[Warsmith IV]

Why weren't the Night Lords picked? Simple. Curze had gone rogue and dissappeared with his Legion. I know this doesn't fit with being sent to Isstvan V, but in the Dark King he dissappears before Isstvan III because Fulgrim is still loyal and apparently before Dorn returns to Terra.

 

Why weren't the World Eaters picked? They were uncontrollable. Remember this was a mission assigned by the Emperor who intended it to be an apprehension rather than annihilation.

 

Why were the Space Wolves ideal? They were utterly loyal to the Emperor, capable of destroying the Thousand Sons (at least with the help of the Silent Sisterhood) but also controlled enough to hold back the assault unless necessary. They only went straight on the offensive because of Horus' intervention.

 

I'd like to add that I honestly prefer both the World Eaters and Night Lords to the Space Wolves, so I consider this a reasonably impartial opinion. I don't really think that Abnett was stepping on either Curze's or Angron's toes with Prospero Burns, although the boastful talk of being intended as the Emperor's executioners is dubious at best. Not that this is likely to persuade any of you strongly opinionated folk.

[DV8]

Well don't forget that Dan Abnett himself hated the Space Wolves. He hated writing Space Marine novels, and he hated the idea of vikings in space, so writing Prospero Burns was a

huge jump for him in many ways. His boastful talk may as well have been as much to fire himself up as it was to fire up the audience. Personally I don't care for such posturing, and I enjoyed Prospero Burns for what it was (although I much prefer it over William King's renditions, and I think Chris Wraught wrote an excellent follow up with Battle for the Fang).

 

Personally I love most of the original Legions. I love their background, I live the history and character behind each one; I could just as easily play Night Lords as I could World Eaters. The only reason I'll always return to Space Wolves is they were what drew me into 40k in the first place, and I couldn't imagine an 40k without them.

 

 

DV8

[Scribe]

Something to note guys, is that for those of us that have issue with the book, its not the 'Executioner' bit, or that seemingly only the Wolves had a predestined role. Its the talk about how they are SO SAVAGE, or SO FRIGHTENING, or that nobody would fight with them, the Space Marines that stand above Space Marines, with zero mention, or comparison, or ANYTHING to the NL or WE legions.

 

I know its an in character view, but its multiple characters, from several different walks of life, and they all fail to mention the WE or NL, yet when it comes to the Wolves? "Oh yes, everyone knows their reputation."

[Lord Ragnarok]

Something to note guys, is that for those of us that have issue with the book, its not the 'Executioner' bit, or that seemingly only the Wolves had a predestined role. Its the talk about how they are SO SAVAGE, or SO FRIGHTENING, or that nobody would fight with them, the Space Marines that stand above Space Marines, with zero mention, or comparison, or ANYTHING to the NL or WE legions.

 

I know its an in character view, but its multiple characters, from several different walks of life, and they all fail to mention the WE or NL, yet when it comes to the Wolves? "Oh yes, everyone knows their reputation."

 

I don't understand why this is an issue.

[Perrin]

Something to note guys, is that for those of us that have issue with the book, its not the 'Executioner' bit, or that seemingly only the Wolves had a predestined role. Its the talk about how they are SO SAVAGE, or SO FRIGHTENING, or that nobody would fight with them, the Space Marines that stand above Space Marines, with zero mention, or comparison, or ANYTHING to the NL or WE legions.

 

I know its an in character view, but its multiple characters, from several different walks of life, and they all fail to mention the WE or NL, yet when it comes to the Wolves? "Oh yes, everyone knows their reputation."

 

Maybe the soldiers that were talking about it had been fighting on the other side of the galaxy from the WE and NL so they hadn't heard much gossip about them.

Or maybe Abnett decided that because neither of those Legions have anything to do with the story being told, and no impact on the proceedings of the novel that there was no point mentioning them because ultimatly readers would find an issue with it and decide he was name-dropping to make his novel cooler than all the other novels in the bookstore. It seems pretty easy to find things wrong with stories these days.

[Legatus]

I don't understand why this is an issue.

Imagine in a books with the Iron Hands, where an imperial Guard character observes: "Truly, the Iron Hands are the masters of siegecraft among all the Legions. If ever there was a tough fortress to assault, I would prefer to call the Iron Hands."

[Scribe]

Something to note guys, is that for those of us that have issue with the book, its not the 'Executioner' bit, or that seemingly only the Wolves had a predestined role. Its the talk about how they are SO SAVAGE, or SO FRIGHTENING, or that nobody would fight with them, the Space Marines that stand above Space Marines, with zero mention, or comparison, or ANYTHING to the NL or WE legions.

 

I know its an in character view, but its multiple characters, from several different walks of life, and they all fail to mention the WE or NL, yet when it comes to the Wolves? "Oh yes, everyone knows their reputation."

 

I don't understand why this is an issue.

 

Because if your going to make claims '..there are Space Marines, and then there are Space Marines', and pump up one single Legion, yet fail to compare to anything it makes for a fanboyish appearance? Because there is no devils advocate? No comparison at all?

 

Certain legions have rep's, we know them as out of universe observers, and I think that if your going to make bold claims, there should be some reasoning. Stating that the Wolves are so terrible to face, and fight alongside, without mention of the Legions that cause Worlds to surrender at the hint of them coming (NL) or those who kill their allies (WE) just makes for a very lame argument. Your mileage may vary.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don't understand why this is an issue.

Imagine in a books with the Iron Hands, where an imperial Guard character observes: "Truly, the Iron Hands are the masters of siegecraft among all the Legions. If ever there was a tough fortress to assault, I would prefer to call the Iron Hands."

 

Yes, an IG saying that, as well as their Primarch believing it, and his Legion utterly believing it, despite the fact that it's impossible for them not to have known about the Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors, and never mentioning those Legions even in passing, while the author says "Why would the Emperor allow such a technology-obsessed Legion to survive? To be the ultimate warriors in siegecraft, that's why!"

[Legatus]

Off topic:

without mention of the Legions that cause Worlds to surrender at the hint of them coming (NL)

That were the World Eaters, actually. The IA NL described how already imperial worlds would often cease all illegal activity and pay outstanding tithes if it was mentioned that the Night Lords were in the system, as to not suffer their punishment. The IA WE mentions that the World Eaters' reputation was such that on occasion whole systems would surrender rather than to face their wrath.

[Ubermensch Commander]

Off topic:

without mention of the Legions that cause Worlds to surrender at the hint of them coming (NL)

That were the World Eaters, actually. The IA NL described how already imperial worlds would often cease all illegal activity and pay outstanding tithes if it was mentioned that the Night Lords were in the system, as to not suffer their punishment. The IA WE mentions that the World Eaters' reputation was such that on occasion whole systems would surrender rather than to face their wrath.

 

 

@ Ragnarok-

This is the issue. *points at above quote*

We have alot of well established fluff prior to Prospero Burns stating and amping up the Night Lords and World Eaters terrifying nature. Well known, in-universe, throughout the Imperium and it's enemies. But now, "oh boy the Wolves are soooooo scary!" without so much as a nod the others? Bah. and Double Bah.

 

Legatus Iron Hands example and Caerolion's comments should demonstrate how troublesome it is. We can suspend alot of disbelief for 40k...ALOT...and internal inconsistency but cmon.

 

 

*SIDE RANT*

I also took umbrage with Prospero Burns for a few other reasons, not LEAST of which was the sad attempt to portray Russ as "giving Magnus a chance to surrender" when all previous fluff in the IA articles, HH Artbooks, and Codices (and HH book references to the Council of Nikea) ramp up how Horus played on Russ' rage at Magnus to have Russ turn "bring him to me as a prisoner" into "BURN IT ALL DOWN!" And how does he do it? By yelling into the face of a guy who may or may not be connected to Magnus...*facepalm*

[Scribe]

Off topic:

without mention of the Legions that cause Worlds to surrender at the hint of them coming (NL)

That were the World Eaters, actually. The IA NL described how already imperial worlds would often cease all illegal activity and pay outstanding tithes if it was mentioned that the Night Lords were in the system, as to not suffer their punishment. The IA WE mentions that the World Eaters' reputation was such that on occasion whole systems would surrender rather than to face their wrath.

 

Well there you go.

 

So tell me this folks. If we have established fluff that random worlds, who may or may not even be imperial or compliant, know of the reputations of these legions, we are to believe that imperial forces dont? To the point of not even making mention of them in passing?

 

Its just flawed beyond belief.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Off topic:

without mention of the Legions that cause Worlds to surrender at the hint of them coming (NL)

That were the World Eaters, actually. The IA NL described how already imperial worlds would often cease all illegal activity and pay outstanding tithes if it was mentioned that the Night Lords were in the system, as to not suffer their punishment. The IA WE mentions that the World Eaters' reputation was such that on occasion whole systems would surrender rather than to face their wrath.

 

 

@ Ragnarok-

This is the issue. *points at above quote*

We have alot of well established fluff prior to Prospero Burns stating and amping up the Night Lords and World Eaters terrifying nature. Well known, in-universe, throughout the Imperium and it's enemies. But now, "oh boy the Wolves are soooooo scary!" without so much as a nod the others? Bah. and Double Bah.

 

Legatus Iron Hands example and Caerolion's comments should demonstrate how troublesome it is. We can suspend alot of disbelief for 40k...ALOT...and internal inconsistency but cmon.

 

 

*SIDE RANT*

I also took umbrage with Prospero Burns for a few other reasons, not LEAST of which was the sad attempt to portray Russ as "giving Magnus a chance to surrender" when all previous fluff in the IA articles, HH Artbooks, and Codices (and HH book references to the Council of Nikea) ramp up how Horus played on Russ' rage at Magnus to have Russ turn "bring him to me as a prisoner" into "BURN IT ALL DOWN!" And how does he do it? By yelling into the face of a guy who may or may not be connected to Magnus...*facepalm*

 

Strange. I could understand if it stated "Space Wolves are the masters of stealth and terror, waiting in the dark and attacking from unknown directions"

I also guarantee someone who has fought alongside of Night Lords will seem them more terrifying vs any force they've "heard about" The books is from a mortals viewpoint first, a sw's viewpoint second. It is not an over arching description of factions of the Imperium. Also, they are all Adeptus Astartes. Every description from a mortals perspective I've read has shown them as terror on two legs.

 

Also note, that the negative savage, barbaric veiw point (mostly through ignorance) most of the other space marine legions/mortals have of the space wolves help fuel this sentiment that they are the most terrifying.

 

Furthermore, There are different ways of applying terror. NL terror tactics are different than SW's. SW's are terrifying because of why they were made, and how they are used. NL's are the masters of terror tactics all the way from the strategic to the tactical. They use terror directly versus being using terror as an abstract of what they do. Very distinct, very specific to them.

[A D-B]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

[Jimmy Carmine]

:lol: well I guess that settles this then!

[Hfran Morkai]

ADB hath spoken!

 

Seriously though, Space Marines are new in the Imperium, the Legion's taking on their personalities and roles is also relatively new. Therefore you are much more likely to have heard about a select few Legions, most likely the ones in your sector and what they can do.

 

At least thats my view on it.

[Scribe]

The executioner bit was never the issue, or my issue, but it does make me want for a WE novel even more... ;)

[DV8]

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

OMGAWD you make me want to play Night Lords! ;)

 

 

DV8

[The Crimson Cartel]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

Beautiful, just Beautiful :)

[Lord Ragnarok]

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

OMGAWD you make me want to play Night Lords! ;)

 

 

DV8

 

He is evil. Do not listen to his whispers and honey'd tongue! :P

 

I agree with the descriptions (as provided by the pov of the speaker)

[Legatus]

I can definitely see why the Emperor would not task the World Eaters or the Night Lords with such delicate matters. However, the entire argument for why it was the wolves was not because they were compliant or effective or loyal, it was because they were the most badass of all the badasses.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Things which aide the "bad assery" below. Note I think each legion is bad ass in their own way. Need a front line charge with no fear from death to carve a hole in the front lines?.... World eaters please. Need to preserve important structures but need the populace compliant?... Let the NL's have a year stoking mind killing terror.

1. Utterly following the emps orders without question when sent to destroy everything.

2. Canis helix is gives sw extra battle prowes. It is a blessing, but also can lead to the "curse" it is a source of strength and weakness.

[ninja6fett]

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

Now I'm even more excited for your WE HH novel, and now really hoping for NL HH novel too.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, I agree with most of A-DBs post, even if I disagree with some of the Night Lords stuff (they were known for overkill, and bombing a planet to ensure compliance doesn't exactly fit with a slow death). Well, even if I'm not entirely happy with the implementation (was going to say "execution", but I've never really liked puns) of the "Wolves as Executioners", I can now see the logic with the Night Lords. I'd never really thought that the WE could have taken the role, as A-DB mentioned, they're far too uncontrollable.

 

And yes, A-DB, hurry up with that World Eater novel. Don't make us get the whip! ;)

[Jim Shady]

Top and bottom is the Big E had them in mind as the legion to go to when it got too messy for the other legions hence the supposed idea that's hanging, that it was the Wolves of Fenris who destroyed the other 2 missing legions.

 

Simply put, they are like the A Team!

[Epistolary Exander]

As brutal as the Wolves are they only good at hitting targets who they know where they are, but they arent much use for trying destroy legions who would hide from the Wolves & would only appear to fight to them on their own terms like the Night Lords or the Alpha Legion.

 

If anything the real executioner legion would be the Alpha Legion as they are so thourough in their work they only ever turn up to fight if they've so stacked the odds in their favour their is no way an enemy could win. If the Alpha Legion was sent to destroy Prospero they would never have allowed Magnus to be able whisk his Legion away to the Planet of the Socerers as Russ did.