thade Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Admittedly, this will come up extremely rarely...but it's not impossible and I've yet to see its like. So, it bears some examination. Note that this refers to the GK Callidus...not the WH one. The Callidus - upon arrival from Reserves - chooses an enemy unit. The enemy unit suffers d6 S4 AP2 hits and she's placed within 3", sans scatter. This isn't shooting; these hits just happen, when she's deployed (top of the Movement phase). I see no reason these hits can't be exacted against an enemy unit that is locked in an Assault from the previous turn. (Unless I'm mistaken, the rules about "not being able to target a unit in an assault" all refer specifically to Shooting. There are certainly non-shooting Psychic powers that affect units locked in combat.) Stick with me here. Consider what happens when the Calidus arrives, exacts her hits against an enemy unit that's locked in an assault...and wipes that unit. Now, whatever unit of yours had been locked in that assault is standing there all alone. What happens? My feeling is that the unit would get to make an immediate consolidation move, then get to move (as it's the Movement phase), shoot, and potentially assault again as if it hadn't been in an assault this turn. I can't back it up as my rulebook is at home...but when this occurred to me on the train this morning I couldn't wait. @_@ This is a small but additional use case for my Callidus. As I think back on the number of times a unit of mine very nearly punched its way out of an assault at the end of my enemy's assault phase, the thought of having some ability to address that makes me happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Interesting. And sure, why not? A necron player can zip a unit out of CC and walk them out of the monolith, right? So it is not like the ability to disengage from CC during the movement phase is without precedent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 i wouldn't give the consolidate move, but i'd probably allow the normal move, which then would permit the next assault if you wished. Reasoning being if you happened to accidentally scatter a blast marker over a combat and wipe out the enemy, you wouldn't get a consolidate move then, would you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 Reasoning being if you happened to accidentally scatter a blast marker over a combat and wipe out the enemy, you wouldn't get a consolidate move then, would you... That is a good question. I do not know the answer to that! @_@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 consolidation is only done at then end of combat (page 40 BRB), as leonides said i wouldnt allows consolidation, but as for the rest, aslong as they are no longer in combat theres no reason for them not to be able to move aslong as its still the movement phase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I like it the only thing I think is different is that you will not get to consolidate as this is done at the end of combat, the victor is not in combat but was "locked in combat" BRB p35. "Combat" is started during the assault phase after assault moves and defender reacts, and only one is active at a time BRB p 33 "assault phase summary" and all end of combat results make reference to the "combat" ending or "at the end of combat" BRB p40. A thing of note is it might be preferable to "the summoning" the assassin asap and get it to mishap to go back into reserve to arrive again :) might work might not.... (I think the polymorphine would overrule the deep strike mechanic) RAW abusive yes but funny if you pulled it off even more so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 I suspect that by the time I'm ready to bring her in, there won't be enough game left to risk trying that; besides, I'm not into such a blatant exploit. <3 Again, no rulebook in hand. Does "the end of combat" specifically refer to "the end of the Assault Phase"...or just "when the models are no longer locked"? If it's not specific, they might get a consolidate, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmytool Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I suspect that by the time I'm ready to bring her in, there won't be enough game left to risk trying that; besides, I'm not into such a blatant exploit. <3 Again, no rulebook in hand. Does "the end of combat" specifically refer to "the end of the Assault Phase"...or just "when the models are no longer locked"? If it's not specific, they might get a consolidate, no? the way it is worded one combat ends before the next combats hits etc are rolled in the same assault phase. and the exploit was for :cusss and giggles nothing else but sounds RAW legal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Consolidation:At the end of combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with the enemy, they may consolidate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 This reeks of the "lack of a definition for teleport" thing. :) Is "the end of combat" something that can only happen at the end of an assault phase? Or literally when combat ends...which could be the result of a scattered template during Shooting or a Callidus when she deploys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I'd say just that. When the combat ends. Either after CC attacks in Assault, or after one side is wiped out by Scattering Blasts, Powers like Jaws, Orbital Strikes from Karamavoz, or attacks like the Cally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyronusSouria Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 They should start fighting each other in confusion B) About consolidation, isn't a unit only considered the victor if that unit incurs more casualties than they lose? In this case, the combat is a draw, and would continue to go, except that it can't, so the unit counts as free to move and shoot, but not consolidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 In the Codex Witch Hunters the Callidus had the ability to "Jump Back" and out of combat at the beginning of the player's assault phase (3rd Ed. C:WH, p. 31). If the Callidus did that, and if the enemy unit was not contacted by a new assault, then the enemy unit was able to consolidater at the end of that turn's assault phase. So essentially the unit was allowed to consolidate when their opponents suddenly disappeared and left them no longer locked in combat, but they were only allowed to do so at the point of the turn when they would usually be doing the consolidation move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 In the Codex Witch Hunters the Callidus had the ability to "Jump Back" and out of combat at the beginning of the player's movement phase (3rd Ed. C:WH, p. 31). If the Callidus did that, and if the enemy unit was not contacted by a new assault, then the enemy unit was able to consolidater at the end of that turn's assault phase. So essentially the unit was allowed to consolidate when their opponents suddenly disappeared and left them no longer locked in combat, but they were only allowed to do so at the point of the turn when they would usually be doing the consolidation move. This has very odd implications though. In my example above, this would mean the unit could move, shoot, then "consolidate" even if they didn't assault? o_O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Jump Back was at the start of the Assault Phase, before Assault Moves, not Movement Phase. :P Also, the FAQ utterly contradicted the written rule. :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBMAKENZIE Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 When necrons disengage with people the people that are left behind consolidate dont they? Something to think on. I like it :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Jump Back was at the start of the Assault Phase, before Assault Moves, not Movement Phase. :P Also, the FAQ utterly contradicted the written rule. :/ Ah, yes, my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 That is true about Necrons. I think that's our precedent. This bodes well for my underdog assassin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 When necrons disengage with people the people that are left behind consolidate dont they? Something to think on. I like it :P no they dnt because the necrons arent destroyed or falling back, infact its a tactic of dual monolith armies to tarpit a unit with lord and immortals, teleport them out in the next turn with one lith and use the others AP1 blast template to nuke the now bunched up enemy unit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 Pretty sure they do get a consolidate move when the Necrons port out. Sadly, our Necron Insurgent is off on holiday (his honeymoon) so I can't call on him for clarification. :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Pretty sure they do get a consolidate move when the Necrons port out. i would ask for the 'reasoning' behind this idea.. the necron FAQ makes no mention and the BRB says this Consolidation:At the end of combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with the enemy, they may consolidate emphasis mine unless teleporting is considered destroyed or falling back then you cant consolidate, thats pretty clear IMO im just checking the necron dex now to make sure theres nothing written there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 unless teleporting is considered destroyed or falling back then you cant consolidate, thats pretty clear IMO Fair enough, I accept your evidence. <3 Not sure where I got that idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 unless teleporting is considered destroyed or falling back then you cant consolidate, thats pretty clear IMO Fair enough, I accept your evidence. <3 Not sure where I got that idea. thats very gentlemanly of you, although i fully admit im not completely clued up on this subject, i literally had no reason to question this before today.. i just accepted the necron tactic was correct and the enemy didnt get to consolidate after teleporting. i cant get hold of a necron dex at the moment so i cant say 100% that im correct, but it does seem to me to be the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 In the Codex Witch Hunters the Callidus had the ability to "Jump Back" and out of combat at the beginning of the player's movement phase (3rd Ed. C:WH, p. 31). If the Callidus did that, and if the enemy unit was not contacted by a new assault, then the enemy unit was able to consolidater at the end of that turn's assault phase. So essentially the unit was allowed to consolidate when their opponents suddenly disappeared and left them no longer locked in combat, but they were only allowed to do so at the point of the turn when they would usually be doing the consolidation move. This has very odd implications though. In my example above, this would mean the unit could move, shoot, then "consolidate" even if they didn't assault? o_O Taken one step more, they could move, shoot pistols, charge and, assuming they win, consolidate only to consolidate again from the previous assualt. Now that's shenanagins! I am more inclined to believe that the consolidation moves happen as soon as they are out of CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Something Wycked Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I am more inclined to believe that the consolidation moves happen as soon as they are out of CC. :) The rule talks about "the end of combat," but not a particular phase. If a unit ends an assault outside of the Assault Phase then it gets a Consolidate move. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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