An assault ends during the Movement phase...?

[timmytool]

The unit previously in combat but was "locked in combat" BRB p35, not in "combat" as this can only exist in the assult phase.

 

each combat/multiple-combats only exist as a combat once picked to resolve, during the dice rolling for hits/wounds armour through to assult resolution. After this the next combat is picked and resolved untill all units locked in combat have been resolved(hence why you cant consolidate into a new enemy in this edition).

 

BRB p34 column2 last paragraph "there may be several separate assaults being fought simultaneously in different parts of the battlefield. If this is the case, the player whose turn it is can choose the order in which to resolve the combats, completing each combat before moving on to the next one, and so on until all combats are resolved.

 

The p33 "Assault phase summary" list this "-pick a combat" .... "-pick another combat and repeat until all combats have been resolved", also all the restrictions to movement shooting etc all refer to units "locked in combat" not in "combat".

 

Resolved means "to come to a definite or earnest decision" and as all combats must be resolved to end the assault phase and no "combats" can begin outside the assault phase ("locked in combat" via a special move maybe but not "combat") you can't consolidate outside the assault phase.

[Something Wycked]

All of that is fantastic, timmy, but you forgot the most important rule to this part of the discussion: Consolidation. As GC08 posted:

 

At the end of combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with the enemy, they may consolidate.

You can argue that "at the end of combat" is for the Assault Phase only until... forever, but all I have to do is point out that when the remaining models were killed by the Assassin, the combat came to an end.

[Leonaides]

as i said earlier- forget the assassin, would you give/take/make a consolidation move if a scattering blast marker killed the enemy you were in combat with? Same situation, still not in the assault phase, still not ending combat via usual methods...

[timmytool]

All of that is fantastic, timmy, but you forgot the most important rule to this part of the discussion: Consolidation. As GC08 posted:

 

At the end of combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with the enemy, they may consolidate.

You can argue that "at the end of combat" is for the Assault Phase only until... forever, but all I have to do is point out that when the remaining models were killed by the Assassin, the combat came to an end.

 

the consolidation is a "combat" resolution rule, they aren't in "combat" their "locked in combat" there is a clear and distinct difference.

 

my previous post shows the BRB pages and logic to the fact that "combat" only exist in the assault phase and must be resolved for the assault phase to end.

[greatcrusade08]

as i said earlier- forget the assassin, would you give/take/make a consolidation move if a scattering blast marker killed the enemy you were in combat with? Same situation, still not in the assault phase, still not ending combat via usual methods...

 

i would say no becuase combat only happens in the assault phase, and can therefore only begin or end in the assault phase

At the end of combat

[timmytool]

as i said earlier- forget the assassin, would you give/take/make a consolidation move if a scattering blast marker killed the enemy you were in combat with? Same situation, still not in the assault phase, still not ending combat via usual methods...

 

i would say no becuase combat only happens in the assault phase, and can therefore only begin or end in the assault phase

At the end of combat

 

and when that combat ended last assault phase the units opponents were not wiped out so the combat ended using one of the other combat resolutions(more then likely a "pile-in!") then the unit only counts as being "locked in combat".

 

"combat" is ended every assault phase by the rules it is not ended when the opponent is wiped out(when they are wiped out in the assault phase due to assault you still follow the motions in the determine assault result are and then are determined to auto win as their is no opponent left, then and only then consolidate as a "combat" resolution)

[BOBMAKENZIE]

unless teleporting is considered destroyed or falling back then you cant consolidate, thats pretty clear IMO

Fair enough, I accept your evidence. <3 Not sure where I got that idea.

 

thats very gentlemanly of you, although i fully admit im not completely clued up on this subject, i literally had no reason to question this before today.. i just accepted the necron tactic was correct and the enemy didnt get to consolidate after teleporting.

i cant get hold of a necron dex at the moment so i cant say 100% that im correct, but it does seem to me to be the case

 

I was pretty sure the Consolidate bit was part of the rules for the teleporter BUT I might be thinking of the deciever instead XD So Will check when I get home :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

So, if a unit locked in CC finds it's opponents dead in their opponents shootign phase (either from Scattering Blasts, or Karamazov dropping an OB on thier heads, Or JotWW sniping), can they be shot at?

 

If the combat is still ongoing until the Assault Phase, then no, they are still 'locked' in CC and can't be shot.

 

But if the CC ends the moment they are no longer in B2B with any enemy models, then you should be able to shoot them as normal.

[timmytool]

So, if a unit locked in CC finds it's opponents dead in their opponents shootign phase (either from Scattering Blasts, or Karamazov dropping an OB on thier heads, Or JotWW sniping), can they be shot at?

 

If the combat is still ongoing until the Assault Phase, then no, they are still 'locked' in CC and can't be shot.

 

But if the CC ends the moment they are no longer in B2B with any enemy models, then you should be able to shoot them as normal.

 

locked in combat is a term that all units have that are in base to base with an opponent(BRB p35 above the dot points...minus the vehicle rules p63), once the opponent is gone they are no longer "locked in combat" so the protection it gives is gone so yes you can shoot them.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you can shoot them in the shooting phase, then they are no longer in combat, so the combat has already ended. And it could have ended in the Movement or Shooting Phase.

[timmytool]

If you can shoot them in the shooting phase, then they are no longer in combat, so the combat has already ended. And it could have ended in the Movement or Shooting Phase.

 

I never said that it could not move during your movement phase, I said I agreed with the OP in full accept that the newly freed unit cant consolidate(the act of the free move).

[Gentlemanloser]

Oh I wasn't taking sides here, just trying to understnad the ramifications! :cuss

 

Although, if they're free to move, be shot at, etc, then why shouldn't they get a Consolidate move?

[Questioner]

For the Monolith question:

 

The rule says nothing about consolidation, nor does the FAQ. So as far as I can tell, no consolidate move.

 

The Callidus' Jump Back sounds similar to the Deceiver's Misdirect rule, which does allow consolidation.

[thade]

I'm still not convinced, guys. "End of combat" doesn't seem to me to be necessarily restricted to the Assault Phase. It doesn't say "at the end of assault"...it says "at the end of combat". As has been said, they couldn't move, shoot, or be shot at were they still in combat...yet they can do these things once the Callidus/scattered template/Demon Prince's make-you-go-poof-now power clears all opponents from you. It seems to me that the combat does in fact end once there are no more enemies in BtB with your models.

 

Seems to me that you'd consolidate.

[greatcrusade08]

there is logic in that argument, tbh im not sure how it stands, the "end of combat" is the only real part of the rule that needs to be interpreted, the rest is all pretty clear.

ill go sit on the fence for a bit :D

[thade]

ill go sit on the fence for a bit :D

lol is that even allowed? Pick your nerf bat back up and let me have it. <3

[Dan VK]

According to the BRB, non-vehicle units are only destroyed while determining assault results, while attempting to fall back (pages 33, 39, 40, 41, 45, 46, 52, 53, and 55, for both previous points), or when suffering at the cruel hands of the deep strike mishap table (page 95). A unit may only consolidate if the enemy has no remaining models determining assault results, is falling back, or has terminally failed to fall back. It would be some impressive chicanery to separate combat resolution from the Assault phase, considering the BRB only mentions 'combat' and 'close combat' in relation to the Assault phase, and otherwise uses the terms 'locked in close combat' and 'locked in combat' during discussion of other phases.

 

Also, making consolidation moves is not the end of the Assault phase. Pile-in! moves are the last thing that occurs when resolving a combat, although in my experience the order rarely matters.

 

 

[EDIT: Replaced a silly :cuss post, corrected my grammar, tried to be funny, sat around with the edit window open and stared into space...]

[falldown]

The existing example that was being used, that of Necrons leaving combat via Monolith, does not allow a consolidation. The Deceiver's ability to teleport out does, but that happens in the assault phase. So we have two existing situations where a squad in combat can find itself not in combat outside of the assault phase, Necrons leaving combat via portal and scattering blast weapons. I'll throw in another... You could line up jaws of the white wolf to hit the last enemy figs in assault. This could remove them and result in the friendly unit finding itself not in assault. None of these abilities say they end combat. None of them say they allow consolidation. What does say it allows consolidation is the Nightbringer's Etheric Tempest ability to push away units in CC. After the unit has moved, it is allowed specifically to consolidate in order to remain in coherency. None of these other situations specifically state that they allow consolidation. I personally see the assassin as having the same effect as a scattered blast. Wounds outside assault to a unit currently in assault. The squad that is still alive suddenly has no target. They can proceed with their turn, but do not get a consolidation.

[thade]

Yea, they do. This is way clearer to me now. Well, not when the Crons port out (because they're not destroyed, they're still on the table) but if the models are blown away, the unit gets to consolidate.

 

At the end of combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy, they may consolidate.

 

If they're not locked in (because everything that was in combat with them was either Destroyed or fell back) then they get a Consolidate move, per the rule. If a scatter plate falls over the unit, does damage, and one of those units falls back...well it can't fall back, because that is covered in the Morale chapter (p44), "A unit that is locked in close combat does not have to take Morale checks for taking 25% casualties." However, that's only half of the consolidate equation. The other half is "destroyed". If the Callidus nukes them clean off the table, or a scattered template, or a very cleverly aimed Jaws of the White Wolf, the surviving and now lonely unit would indeed get to consolidate.

 

The only mildly sticky bit is "end of combat"...but don't get stuck on it. :lol: The end of combat is not the end of the assault phase. It's the end of the melee, which might end because - for instance - BOTH squads get hit with a scattered Demolisher blast and get nuked off the table. If one side still has survivors and the other does not, consolidate moves abound.

[Dan VK]

The only mildly sticky bit is "end of combat"...but don't get stuck on it. :) The end of combat is not the end of the assault phase. It's the end of the melee, which might end because - for instance - BOTH squads get hit with a scattered Demolisher blast and get nuked off the table. If one side still has survivors and the other does not, consolidate moves abound.

I disagree (surprise! :lol: ), and I am going to be rather verbose about it. ;)

 

The underlying problem I encounter in GW rules discussions stems from mixing the casual usage of a word with the use of the word as a term, which is something a game designer should never do, because it makes it difficult to define a term with no printed definition. GW does this all the time (think soothing thoughts :blink: ), and so do we. Sometimes GW is wonderfully good about this, but usually only where there is no printed definition to remove all doubt about what a word means.

 

So, what is the definition of 'combat'? There is no printed definition, so we are left with circumstantial evidence with which we may successfully define the term. For example, there is no "end of the melee" in the rules; there is only combat, and locked in combat. If two squads are locked in combat, and some yahoo with a mortar sneezes while dialing the coordinates, the surviving unit is now no longer locked in combat. Does this mean it is the 'end of combat'? I do not know. There are two distinct usages of 'combat', by itself when relating to the Assault phase, and when used with 'locked' when relating to the Movement and Shooting phases. The consistent use of 'combat' in separate, but similar, contexts suggests it has a different meaning in each context, and/or that 'locked' has additional meaning. Of course, it is possible that the distinct usages are a coincidence, because GW does not write the rules in a consistent manner. For example, 'combat' and 'close combat' are used interchangeably, regardless of whether 'locked' is also used. I believe they are separate, but because the only evidence is circumstantial I cannot prove it.

 

What is the definition of 'destroyed'? Again, there is no printed definition. The word is only used in the following contexts:

- When a unit has no models remaining while determining assault results.

- When a unit is falling back, successfully or not.

- When a unit is subject to 1-2 on the deep strike mishap table.

- When referencing a 5-6 on the vehicle damage chart.

The use of 'destroyed' is consistent within the Assault phase section, and otherwise is used when referencing rules described in the Assault phase section. This suggests 'destroyed' has a meaning separate from 'kill', 'casualty', et cetera, and therefore the requirements for consolidation are not met outside of the Assault phase. As with 'combat', I believe the meanings are separate ('destroyed' and 'killed'), but I cannot point to a sentence which directly states it.

 

TL;DR - 'Combat/close combat' only occurs in the Assault phase; during the Movement and Shooting phases units are 'locked in combat/close combat'. A non-vehicle unit is only 'destroyed' when assault results are determined, while falling back, or from the deep strike mishap table. All evidence I have seen supports this interpretation, but there is nothing definitive. :D

[falldown]

I looked up the Nightbringer's ability last night. It can only be used in the Assault phase before blows are struck. So you shouldn't use it as a proving point. The affected unit is no longer in combat, in the assault phase, so they get to consolidate.

 

I see where you all are coming from, but it is too much of a stretch for me. I will take a closer look at the brb when I get home to see if that sways my mind. In my opinion, consolidate is a rule that takes place in the assault phase. If anyone can find a single special ability that occurs in any other phase that allows or causes a consolidate move, that would probably get me into the, "ok but i don't have to like it" camp. As is, I do agree that the unit can continue to act as normally during that turn, move, shoot, assault, etc if they are randomly free of melee in a different phase.

[thade]

I looked up the Nightbringer's ability last night. It can only be used in the Assault phase before blows are struck. So you shouldn't use it as a proving point. The affected unit is no longer in combat, in the assault phase, so they get to consolidate.

 

If we completely disregard the existence of the Necron codex, we still have the more mundane precedent of a scattered blast template, not to mention the Callidus's on-deployment attacks.

 

At the end of the day, we're quibbling over a d6 worth of movement (which makes me feel sheepish) but I can't see them not getting it. I would certainly permit my opponent the consolidation move, but wouldn't balk at then disallowing me were the situation reversed. It's a small thing.

 

@Dan: While I agree with the whole poorly defined terms issue, the rulebook is so rife with them that we just need to roll with it. I think this is one of those times. Consider that many rules written exclusively in the Assault chapter have clear bearing on other phases: for instance, units that are locked in combat cannot move during the Movement phase and cannot shoot - or be shot at - during a Shooting phase. Why should it be so weird that the Assault chapter allows for combat to end outside of the phase itself?

[timmytool]

so as it stands their are 2 camps

 

1 the unit is freed from "locked in combat" but does not consolidate as its not in "combat". In this camp "combat" begins in the assault phase and all combats are "resolved" in order to end the assault phase (locked BRB p35 all resolved to end assault BRB p33)

 

2 the units opponents are all destroyed and this triggers a "consolidation" (consolidation brb p40)

 

I'm in camp one for several reasons

a the consolidation rules only take affect "At the end of a combat, if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, ..." so 2 "if"s that both need to be true, at end of combat and no opponents.

b "locked in combat" and "combat" are different, threw out the BRB the 2 are not used interchangeably (thought in both instances combat/close_combat are used interchangeably)

b1 locked in combat has it's own definition its on BRB p 35, if 2 units are in base 2 base contact then they are "locked in combat" by the defined rules(other then tanks, rule in separate BRB section)

b2 while "combat" has no definition the BRB said that all combats NEED to be resolved for the assault phase to end (BRB p33-34) "There may be several separate assaults being fought simultaneously in different parts of the battlefield. If this is the case, the player whose turn it is can choose the order in which to resolve the combats, completing each combat before moving on to the next one, and so on until all combats are resolved."BRBp34 all words that mean the combats are ended and finalised.

c I believe their are more pro camp 1 notes but I'm to distracted atm so by no means is this an exhaustive list.

 

In ether camp we all agree that the freed unit (with or without the consolidation move) are free to move/shoot and do all things as soon as their base 2 base enemy are slain, as they are no longer "locked in combat" which protects and limits their actions BRBp35 & p40.

 

does anyone think their is a 3rd camp?

[thade]

I do not think there is a third camp. Consider that, once a unit has charged into or has been charged in the assault phase, they are considered to be "locked in combat" for the Moving and Shooting phase.

 

Once a unit is no longer "locked in combat", I think it's clear that's because combat is over.

 

There is an definition for combat. It's what you are locked in, what prevents you from shooting, being shot at, and moving. Once you are no longer locked, how can it not be over?

 

I'm unclear as to what's unclear here?

[falldown]

Like Timmy said, locked in combat and combat are not interchangeable. Outside of the assault phase you are locked in combat. Outside of the assault phase, if your enemy is destroyed, the unit is just no longer held by the "locked in combat" status and can act normally. That is how I see it.