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drop pod closed/open both wrong?>


vanguardwolf

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im thinking about getting a pod or 3.

 

thing is in the rules(droppod assault) its described as the doors are blown.

so should pods be fielded without their doors?

there is alway the discussion on pod's closed or open but the rules discribe clearly that the doors are blown.

 

what do you think?

are we doing it wrong? or is it just to vague to have a clear rule.

 

 

greets

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Theres nothing to tell us what 'blown' means, but it certainly doesnt say 'blown off'. In context it means blown open, as many hatches can be- that doesnt mean they are detached however.

 

Either open or closed is fine, and changes how they play. The problem occurs when people try to mix the advantages and disadvantages of both methods.

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I have glued my pods shut (to lessen the painting I have to do and to make the model more durable), I'm curious though, what advantages/disadvantages do you mean grey mage?

 

I'm sincerely hoping I haven't done anything to gain an unfair advantage in my games.

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keeping them closed blocks los and you can hide behind the pod.

dis advantege is that los work both ways and the poddoor the disembark area is smaller

 

keeping them open creates a better los and you can use the doors als extra desimbarking area.

dis advantige is that your unit cant hide behind the pod.

 

greets

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Plus, I think the doors when down still count as part of vehicle, so the 2" from the vehicle can be used from there

 

this is one of those factors that grey mage was talking about, claiming lowered doors to be part of the vehicle/hull is a clear abuse of rules for gain

 

keeping them open creates a better los and you can use the doors als extra desimbarking area.

how though? if the doors are doors then you cannot disembark from them, only hull.

if they are part of the hull then they need to be opened at the time of deployment, which will affect how it lands, mishaps etc, also if they are part of the hull you couldnt not deploy or stand on them at any point.

also if they were hull you could deploy 2" from the tip of a door, allowing you to deploy a whopping 8" from the main stem of the pod.

 

its complete madness..

my 0.02 the doors are not part of the hull

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The doors are not considered part of the hull and regardless of whether the model is deployed with the doors closed or open you can draw los through the droppod as they are always considered to be open. I believe that has been the general consensus in the various topics it has come up in in the rules forum.

 

Edit: Generally this means you can shoot at anything on the other side of a droppod, though it will almost certainly have cover, as you are shooting through another unit.

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The doors are not considered part of the hull and regardless of whether the model is deployed with the doors closed or open you can draw los through the droppod as they are always considered to be open. I believe that has been the general consensus in the various topics it has come up in in the rules forum.

 

Edit: Generally this means you can shoot at anything on the other side of a droppod, though it will almost certainly have cover, as you are shooting through another unit.

 

Hmmm, I've just assumed that the pod blocks LOS whether the door are open or not, but what you're saying makes more sense.

 

Cheers

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Plus, I think the doors when down still count as part of vehicle, so the 2" from the vehicle can be used from there

 

this is one of those factors that grey mage was talking about, claiming lowered doors to be part of the vehicle/hull is a clear abuse of rules for gain

 

keeping them open creates a better los and you can use the doors als extra desimbarking area.

how though? if the doors are doors then you cannot disembark from them, only hull.

if they are part of the hull then they need to be opened at the time of deployment, which will affect how it lands, mishaps etc, also if they are part of the hull you couldnt not deploy or stand on them at any point.

also if they were hull you could deploy 2" from the tip of a door, allowing you to deploy a whopping 8" from the main stem of the pod.

 

its complete madness..

my 0.02 the doors are not part of the hull

I agree with the above with a couple of thoughts to add what are the doors once they are down. If I try to move across/under the wing of an immobilised storm raven I treat it as difficult terrain

I have always played doors down and they are not part of the hull for any purpose but treated as difficult terrain to move across after the embarked model/s have left the pod (they have after all been blown open and are wrecked therefore unable to be retracted)

Its an important point to clear up before the game because this significantly increases the footprint of the DP for blocking movement which seems logical they dont land its a controlled crash right?.

The only other option which an opponent may ask for and I will agree to is to treat the doors as part of the model which means you can not approach closer than 1" unless in assault but who wants that? If I forget to clarify this pre game I just let the dice decide

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The thing is, not everyone considers doors to not be part of the hull- many people open the ramps on their landraiders when deploying out not just for the rule of cool but also to gain an extra half inch or so..... wich gets far more complicated with a drop pod.

 

Then we come to the fact that the doors are part of the model, no ifs and or buts about it... and there are alot of opinions on what that means for models trying to walk around them.

 

Talk with people in your area, pick one, and stick with it. I find most people would rather give my stormbolter free LOS through the doors than consider having to walk around the opened petals, but to each their own.

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If I try to move across/under the wing of an immobilised storm raven I treat it as difficult terrain

but you cant move over your own or your opponent models .

 

I have always played doors down and they are not part of the hull for any purpose but treated as difficult terrain to move across after the embarked model/s have left the pod (they have after all been blown open and are wrecked therefore unable to be retracted)

but then as crusade said , if they are part of the hull then they are part of the hull as soon as they touch the ground so any deep strike misshaps etc become a huge problem for them .

there are no rules for models which can change their size in w40k , that is why pods and defilers are so hard to use .

 

If I try to move across/under the wing of an immobilised storm raven I treat it as difficult terrain

but you cant move over your own or your opponent models .

 

I have always played doors down and they are not part of the hull for any purpose but treated as difficult terrain to move across after the embarked model/s have left the pod (they have after all been blown open and are wrecked therefore unable to be retracted)

but then as crusade said , if they are part of the hull then they are part of the hull as soon as they touch the ground so any deep strike misshaps etc become a huge problem for them .

there are no rules for models which can change their size in w40k , that is why pods and defilers are so hard to use .

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Thank you Jeske you are correct models are impassable terrain.

So the DP with hatches down is a huge blocker .... greeeeat. Terrain will stop a door functioning, maybe. I guess thats not a DS problem "Once the drop pod has landed the hatches are blown" its done moving, the hatch will not come down is all and the hatch rests against terrain... or does the explosive charge slam the hatch into terrain and force it down, maybe on top of an orcs head what happens then?

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Rule of cool it, the hull is the 'main body' of the pod, the hatches come down and look great on the table, but you can move freely over them and don't get any bonus to your 2" deployment distance.

 

Anyone who tries to deploy squads 2" from the end of the doors is obviously playing for advantage and should have to find a place where the WHOLE pod with doors down can fit without touching any terrain at all.

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Yeah, I think you guys are taking it far too literally.

 

When the hatch is blown, it is blown whether the model represents this or not. That means that if you leave them closed, they still count as being opened. The hatches don't count as part of the hull (prove that they do!) and so offer no advantages or disadvantages.

 

If they are left shut on the model, they still count as being open. LoS stuff still applies the way it normally would (prove that it doesn't!) and the game will still be played as normal.

 

+Edit+

 

This is like saying that a model that does not have his bolt pistol in his hand does not count as having a bolt pistol. How the model is "posed" does not effect anything but aesthetic tastes. The DP with open or closed hatches is how it is "posed."

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Yeah, I think you guys are taking it far too literally.

 

When the hatch is blown, it is blown whether the model represents this or not. That means that if you leave them closed, they still count as being opened. The hatches don't count as part of the hull (prove that they do!) and so offer no advantages or disadvantages.

 

If they are left shut on the model, they still count as being open. LoS stuff still applies the way it normally would (prove that it doesn't!) and the game will still be played as normal.

 

+Edit+

 

This is like saying that a model that does not have his bolt pistol in his hand does not count as having a bolt pistol. How the model is "posed" does not effect anything but aesthetic tastes. The DP with open or closed hatches is how it is "posed."

 

Saying "prove that is doesn't/does" does not constitute an answer greater than "in my opinion". I can tell you lots of things happen and tell you to prove they do or don't exist but that doesn't make them real. All of that stems from your interpretation of the rules, and yet I can say to you. Hatches blown means you fold down the doors and they still count as hull (prove me wrong).

 

The doors are closed on the model, it affects LoS (prove it doesn't).

 

You can't just assert your interpretation of the rules and expect people to go, "Ok, that's not covered in the rules so I guess I'll go with what you're saying!"

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Yeah, I think you guys are taking it far too literally.

 

When the hatch is blown, it is blown whether the model represents this or not. That means that if you leave them closed, they still count as being opened. The hatches don't count as part of the hull (prove that they do!) and so offer no advantages or disadvantages.

 

If they are left shut on the model, they still count as being open. LoS stuff still applies the way it normally would (prove that it doesn't!) and the game will still be played as normal.

 

+Edit+

 

This is like saying that a model that does not have his bolt pistol in his hand does not count as having a bolt pistol. How the model is "posed" does not effect anything but aesthetic tastes. The DP with open or closed hatches is how it is "posed."

 

Saying "prove that is doesn't/does" does not constitute an answer greater than "in my opinion". I can tell you lots of things happen and tell you to prove they do or don't exist but that doesn't make them real. All of that stems from your interpretation of the rules, and yet I can say to you. Hatches blown means you fold down the doors and they still count as hull (prove me wrong).

 

The doors are closed on the model, it affects LoS (prove it doesn't).

 

You can't just assert your interpretation of the rules and expect people to go, "Ok, that's not covered in the rules so I guess I'll go with what you're saying!"

 

Proof: The rules state that when the model hits the hatches are blown, which would mean that the doors are no longer closed. <- Therefore, your model does not match the rules, and it's aesthetic look has nothing to do with the game play.

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I prefer pods to be open but that's because I think they look better on the table that way and like the visual appeal. I won't blanket refuse playing some one based on pods being glued shut since I know the things can be a pain to assemble but I reserve the right to do so.

 

You can't really see much through a pod being it;s pentagonal with stuff inside so at best trying to shoot through one will give infantry and most vehicles cover save so play them how ever they are either up or down. I know that I try to have all the doors open on mine at landing but there are still times when do to terrain or other models it's just not possible to open all the doors. I usually ask my oponent if they wish to consider them closed or open at that point and follow that the rest of the game.

 

Doors aren't hull and deployed doors are not terrain so no deployment shenanigans or difficult or dangerous terrain test for deployed doors. You just act like they're not there just like you do for any vehicle with a ramp. Trying either of these will get you put in my never play again book.

 

In the end just discuss it pre game with your opponent if you haven't already come to an agreement. It doesn't matter what other people on line think just those you play with.

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You can't really see much through a pod being it;s pentagonal with stuff inside so at best trying to shoot through one will give infantry and most vehicles cover save so play them how ever they are either up or down.

 

Tell that to my 3 RAS marines and sargeant who took a venom shot because one piece of one jumppack could be seen through a gap in a DP. Oh I get a 4+ save ? I am 3+ anyway and got shot to hell except for the sargeant who lived, passed a pinning test and won the game. It is a big deal and worth questioning.

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I keep mine close as well, or try to cause sometimes the doors fall open.

 

As a side note i can hide behind my pods as they are solid inside, i always show this to my opponent if he thinks he can shoot through them eg i only Forgeworld Droppods (does not apply to my dreaddroppod).

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When the hatch is blown, it is blown whether the model represents this or not. That means that if you leave them closed, they still count as being opened.

and how do you know that . there is no rules for stuff being blown of models in 5th ed . For example if you say is right If I destroy the battlecannon on a lemman russ does it stop having the turret [or at least the gun] and blocks LoS in a different way ?

 

 

The rules state that when the model hits the hatches are blown, which would mean that the doors are no longer closed. <- Therefore, your model does not match the rules, and it's aesthetic look has nothing to do with the game play.

you in non precedense law countries , there are offten laws passed which say . "When X happens article Y will tell you what to do" then you flip some pages and articles Y does not exist yet. SO sure the drop pod fluff part tells us that the hatches are blown off , but there are 0 rules about what blowing up part of the models do . Ergo that is why no one knows how it works . just like w40k doesnt know what to do with models like the defiler who have huge movable parts . is it ok If I change the defiler in to a starfish to multi charge or when I bunch the legs up to make it small does it come under the "modeling for adventage" rule if yes then how much do the legs have to change position for me to get a DQ . etc etc .

 

Drop pods have slopy rules which no one knows how they work and the only way to use them is to ask how the community your playing allows you to .

 

 

 

Doors aren't hull and deployed doors are not terrain so no deployment shenanigans or difficult or dangerous terrain test for deployed doors.

So if I see just the door of a rhino I cant shot at it because am unable to draw line of sight to the hull [and doors are not hull]?

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Doors aren't hull and deployed doors are not terrain so no deployment shenanigans or difficult or dangerous terrain test for deployed doors.

So if I see just the door of a rhino I cant shot at it because am unable to draw line of sight to the hull [and doors are not hull]?

Some might even go so far as to say that you could shoot through those doors, like they try to shoot through the doors on a drop pod.

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Shooting through the doors does cause some interesting complications with TLoS. I don't know of anything in the rules that lets you ignore the fact that closed doors would block the LoS of a unit trying to shoot through the pod, and with TLoS trying to ignore something that blocks line of sight doesn't really work.
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None of those pics really prove anything as they aren't deployed models, but a posed shot showcasing a battle force.

 

Tell that to my 3 RAS marines and sargeant who took a venom shot because one piece of one jumppack could be seen through a gap in a DP. Oh I get a 4+ save ? I am 3+ anyway and got shot to hell except for the sargeant who lived, passed a pinning test and won the game. It is a big deal and worth questioning.

Then you got cheated :

Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to anypart of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit (for 'body' we mean its head, torso, legs and arms). Sometimes, all that may be visible of a model is a weapon, an antenna, a banner or some other ornament he is wearing or carrying (including its wings and tail, even though they are technically part of its body), In these cases, the model is not visible. These rules are intended to ensure that models don't get penalised for having impressive standards, blades, guns, majestic wings, etc.
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