Seahawk Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 In response to a different question my group had raised, I was rereading the weapons rules and I found this little dirty gem ;): "Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn." This is brand new for this edition; I went back and double-checked the 5th book but this was not in there. So, I then checked the FAQ's and the Eldar codex, and there was no other clarification. So first, can somebody please check their SW codex for me to see if Arjac is explicitly allowed to use his hammer in the shooting and assault phases in the same turn? Otherwise, it's looking like Arjac's hammer, Singing Spears, and anything else that works in the two phases (the Burna is already covered by the Ork codex...stands the test of time!) can only ever be used in the shooting phase or assault phase of a given turn, but not both in the same turn. That is a sad, mega nerf and I don't like it, but can't do anything about it. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 its a similar thing then with bolt pistols as far as i see. they are a CCW FAI&P. so if i shoot it in the shooting phase then im not dually armed in the assualt phase? IIRC (lost my book) arjacs hammer is thrown with the assualt profile. i think also in this instance it may refer more towards logans weapon which can be a frost weapon or a power axe. so i do not see where this rule would apply to using a weapon in the shooting phase and then not be able to use it in the same turn in the assualt phase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Oh, pickles! I didn't even think of the new pistol rules too! [digs through rulebook] Yep. You can only use pistols as guns or ccw's in the same turn, but not both. WHY DIDN'T THEY REALIZE THIS WHEN WRITING IT??? Or maybe they did... It does apply, because the pistol has two profiles, its shooting profile and its melee profile. "and you can choose which to use each turn". The context doesn't say only ranged or melee weapons, it's just all weapons at all. WOW what a change this is going to make... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 no BRB here but im telling you, you are wrong. they dont have seprate profiles per se. Logans Axe of Morkai has seprate profiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 no BRB here but im telling you, you are wrong. they dont have seprate profiles per se. Logans Axe of Morkai has seprate profiles. A most eloquent rebuttal in the +OR+! ;) All joking aside, pistols. "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored (see page 52). [page 52] All Pistols are effectively Assault 1 weapons. A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase (see page 24 and 51)." So...a pistol has its pistol profile. Then, come the assault phase, it no longer has a pistol profile (because of "ignored") and instead has a ccw profile. I think I could get behind that. It has two profiles, but not at the same time, so you don't have to choose which you're using in a given turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I don't think it will matter with bolt pistols or any thing else with the "pistol" special rule. There is no separate profile for the weapon; a pistol simply "counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase." What the paragraph is referring to are things like missile launchers (first sentence) and ork burnas (second sentence). Missile launchers have different profiles for each missile type. An ork burna may be used in the shooting phase as a template weapon or be used in the assault phase as a power weapon. The third sentence is stating that when there are multiple profiles for a weapon, you pick one and keep it for the turn. Both of these example weapons have separate profiles depending on how they are to be used. A pistol has no second profile, but does have the rule that it "counts as" a melee weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 "Counts-as" by using a different weapon profile. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Here is why you are wrong also. It mentions power settings and the like psycannon is a good example of that. missile launchers have different profiles. Some of these you are forced to choose from ad in the case of psycannons and otheryou can choose like missiles. For pistols you are always going to fight at full effect in combat. Srna s hammer is a thunder hammer that can be thrown its going to act normal in the assault phase. Ace of morkai has two modes to be used in. Each round of combat I am going to need to choose what it is. Same with ymgarl genestealers. They have different modes to fight in. Obliterators and mutilators have the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Its multiple MODES not USES Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ragnarok Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Snar's hammer and Ace of Morkai?!?!? Are these new SW wargear items? Logan is now a Ace/face card?? Which characters are using these?? :P :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Snar's hammer and Ace of Morkai?!?!? Are these new SW wargear items? Logan is now a Ace/face card?? Which characters are using these?? :P :) Rags are you trolling me? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Toaster, that stance ignores this bit of the rule above though; Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Bolt Pistols (for example only) can be used in both combat, and shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Toaster, that stance ignores this bit of the rule above though; Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Bolt Pistols (for example only) can be used in both combat, and shooting. bolt pistols dont have two modes to be used in. they shoot and they count as a CCW in close combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 That's still two different profiles to choose from, two different modes of use: the shooting version and the cc version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Exactly. If Bolt pistols don't count, then what weapons do satisfy; Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. This part of the rule? Edit: The different Ammo/Power setting (like Psycannons) is a seperate part of the rule to used in both shooting and CC. They are both qualifiers for this particular rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 The pistol says it "counts as" a CCW in close combat, so you don't choose which profile to use - you use the Bolt Pistol profile in the shooting phase, then a mythical Close Combat Weapon provided by the pistol in the assault phase. Just like the mythical Close Combat Weapon carried by Imperial Guardsmen, Tomb Spyders and Scout Marines. Otherwise where it says that the pseudo-CCW can be "a bayonet, knife or even rifle butt", that would mean that a Guardsman couldn't fire overwatch then fight because he already used his pseudo-CCW (lasgun butt) as a shooting weapon that turn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Well, there's really two choices. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each Either a Bolt Pitol has two seperate profiles, and you choose which to use (with the use the profile above, but ignore... being a 'seperate' profile to the shooting profile). Or a Bolt Pitsol doesn't have two seperate profiles, and you there *can't* use it in both shooting and CC. Because it no longer satisfies; Where this is the case Just like the mythical Close Combat Weapon carried by Imperial Guardsmen, Tomb Spyders and Scout Marines. It's a seperate wargear entry isn't it? Just a generic CCW that's not defined, and can be basically, anything. Totally different to the topic at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Otherwise where it says that the pseudo-CCW can be "a bayonet, knife or even rifle butt", that would mean that a Guardsman couldn't fire overwatch then fight because he already used his pseudo-CCW (lasgun butt) as a shooting weapon that turn! Guardsmen also have a bayonet. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Just double checked the IG 'dex. Guardsmen as Wargear have both a Lasgun and a Close-combat Weapon (undefined) as seperate items of wargear. I'm sure SM Scouts CCW is also a seperate bit of wargear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 the BP arguement has no legs, it is a pistol in shooting and a CCW in combat. its not two different profiles. a burna is a better example. but IIRC you can still use that in CCW. This rule mainly retains to things like Logans Axe, oblits and mulitates. where you have to CHOOSE which profile that you are going to use. if there isnt more than one profile for the necessary phase that you are in, you use the default one. its when people over think things when stupid questions like this come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 The problem is that it doesn't say phase, it says turn. Choose which profile to use each turn. If it said phase there'd be no problem. As for the Burna, no it says it can only be used in one phase or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Toaster, then explain what weapons satisfy the rule. Specifically; Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case You'll also have to explain how a Bolt Pistol isn't covered by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toasterfree Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 so to give a tl,dr addition if a weapon has MULTIPLE PROFILES... lets see..... Axe of Morkai S6 ap2 or S8 AP2.... hmm thats two different profiles... or has multiple ammos sternguard.... hmmmmmmm those are different modes or profiles or stats. bolt pistol s4 ap5 nothing to chose there. it is what it is. chainsword s(as user) ap- nothing to chose there. OH WAIT- obliterators- they can chose from multiple profiles... mutiliators- same thing ymgarl stealers- same thing.. they are doing different modes/ammos/profiles. Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 And still you fail to address the part of the rule I've quoted at least twice now... Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. This is nothing to do with the preceeding cluase about different ammo/modes of fire... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Bolt pistol. Ranged: S: 4 AP: 5 Close combat: S: (as user) AP: - Two different profiles for two different phases in the same turn. Ork Burna. Ranged: S: 4 AP: 5 template Close combat: S: (as user) AP: 3 Two different profiles for two different phases in the same turn. Same with Singing Spears. Two different profiles for two different phases in the same turn. And hence hit by the same set of rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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