Gentlemanloser Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 It's not the Apothecary purchasing the options... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Yes, but is he allowed to have the weapons? Does it state he can have any of those weapons? The answer is no, it never states he can have those weapons, ergo if you upgrade a Veteran armed with options he cannot have then you've created an illegal model. And to preempt the statement that it doesn't say he can't have those options, remember it's permissive. After all, it doesn't say my Space Marine Captain CAN'T take a Servo Harness, but that doesn't mean he can and it's absurd to suggest otherwise in any serious capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 But we've satisfied all the permissions we've been given. The Veteren is *permitted* to take the upgrade. Check. The Veteren is *permitted* to upgrade to an Apothecary. Check. That's *all* the rules say on the matter. As you pre-empt, (and as I said up on page 1), we're not given further instruction either way. What we have done, is satisfy all the printed rule requirements. Anything else, well, that's bringing unprinted Intention into the equation. And there is absolutely no basis in the rules, to disallow what we have been previously permitted to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The Apothecary is a separate model. You still haven't been able to confirm whether an Apothecary can have those options, only that he can be upgraded from a Veteran. Until you can prove an Apothecary can have those options, as in it states he's allowed to take them, it's an illegal model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 You will have to show were the upgrades the Veteren is *permitted* to take, under the permissive ruleset, is now illegal. The burden of proof is yours, as I've satisfied every pridnted permission. Show were the Apothecary is unable to retain any options purchased as a Veteren. I'll save everyone the trouble - You can't. Two Examples of a permissive system; Deathwing Command Squad; One Deathwing Terminator may choose one of the following options: take a cyclone missile launcher One Deathwing Terminator may be ugraded to a Deathwing Apothecary, replacing thier Power Fist with a Narthecium under a permissive system, we take a DWT. We choose a CML. *check* We take the same DWT, and upgrade to an Apothecary, replacing his Power Fist. *check* Both Permissions. Neither mutually exclusive. Ordo Malleus Inquisitor May replace Carapace Armour with Power Armour May replace Carapace Armour, bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krak grenades withTerminator Armour, storm bolter and Nemesis Daemon hammer. Under a permissive system, we replace the Carapace armour with power armour. *check* We are now unable to purchase TDA, as we no longer have Carapace armour. This upgrade isn't permitted. Edit: In the Dangel Codex, the Apothecary doesn't even have his own seperate 'Wargear' entry in the unit list. An Apothecaries Wargear is based *entirely* upon the Wargear given for the Deathwing Terminator he is upgraded from. That should really be enough to end this conversation here and now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Well, you can argue that when a Deathwing terminator upgrades with a CML, it stops being a Deathwing terminator (stock model) and become Deathwing terminator w/CML. since there are no other options for the "Deathwing terminator w/CML", he cannot upgrade further like a stock terminator can. Otherwise there would be no need for phrasing like "any model in the unit can take..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Gentlemanloser; the burden of proof is not mine just because you're trying to reverse my argument. The reason the burden of proof is yours is not because I said so, but because if you want to do something in 40K you need to have a rule to allow you to. All you've done is repeat your argument. I understand it, but you're ignoring my crucial counter argument and just repeating yourself. Show me where it says the Apothecary/Champion can have the wargear of a Veteran. Until you do this, you are building an illegal model because the end result has a selection options it has not been permitted to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Cap, I'm showing you the book rules. The book permissions, and how they're being followed. A Deathwing Apothecary *has no wargear list* of his own. If you disagree with how the book permission are being followed, *you* have to show how and why. We are given permission to take a CML. We are given permission (with no other restriction than to replace the Power Fist) to upgrade to an Apothecary. The Apothecary has no seperate wargear list. All this is in the Codex. You must show where this falls down, or accept that there is nothing in the permissive system to stop this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I don't have to show why a model cannot have a piece of wargear, it's up to the person equipping said model to show the model can have the options. If a model isn't listed as having an option, then they can't take the option. Sorry, your position fails to explain that an Apothecary has access to any options. You're listing what is permitted but are making an assumption the lack of wargear options for an Apothecary (or similar models in similar circumstances) is because you are allowed to circumnavigate this lack of options. Looking at it literally, an Apothecary cannot take any options, there if you give a Veteran/Deathwing options you cannot upgrade him to an Apothecary because the result is a model with weapons he has no access to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 You're wrong. As a permissive rules set, it's down to you to show me the ruling an Apothecary can take the wargear of a veteran. I'll save everyone the trouble - you can't because an Apothecary doesn't have access to these options. The ruling is right there in the codex. You can upgrade a veteran's weapons.You can upgrade a veteran to an apothecary. You are attempting to impose some sort of limitation on when and how these upgrades are applied which simply is not written down anywhere in any rulebook or codex. It is down to you to show that applying 2 or more legal upgrades to the same model is not allowed, because the codex says it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 it's up to the person equipping said model to show the model can have the options. Already done. Multiple times in this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Morollan - I have shown why it isn't allowed. An Apothecary doesn't have any options. Upgrading a Veteran before an Apothecary is not compatible with it because it contradicts the options of an Apothecary. You're position relies on there being an order to upgrading models based upon the position on the page, but that's not how the rules work. All rules are relevant throughout all rule books, unless we're told otherwise. If you want an example where order of upgrades doesn't work, check the DA Codex army list entry for Deathwing Terminaters and compare it to the Deathwing Command squad. The Command squad can take a heavy weapon option, then beneath we're told a model can exchange all his weapons for a TH/SS. The Deathwing version of this is opposite; the heavy weapons are quoted after the TH/SS options. So by your claim there is an order to upgrades based upon position on a page, that means Deathwing Terminaters can have a TH/SS and a Cyclone ML, but a Command squad can't. Why is that any different? Furthermore I'd like to point out the upgrade for an Apothecary comes before the other upgrades I believe, so again your assumption there is an order to the upgrade is incorrect. So for your position to work, you have to agree that upgrades come simultaneously then. Well here you're incorrect also because that means all upgrades are applied at the same time and the Apothecary upgrade will conflict with a Veteran option. it's up to the person equipping said model to show the model can have the options. Already done. Multiple times in this thread... No you haven't. Not once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 it's up to the person equipping said model to show the model can have the options. Already done. Multiple times in this thread... Where? Where does it say a Deathwing Apothecary can be armed with a CML or anything else? A Deathwing Veteran can be. Once you change the model to an Apothecary, it is no longer a Veteran, making any previous upgrades to it now illegal because only a VETERAN may have its armament changed. Neither an Apothecary or the Company Champion is permitted to get extra wargear, because they have no wargear entries in the options list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 A Deathwing Apothecary has no wargear list of his own. Look in the Codex. His Wargear is based *totally* on the Wargear of the DWT he is upgraded from. I have shown both permissions given. That of taking a CML and that of being upgraded. An Apothecary doesn't have any options. Upgrading a Veteran before an Apothecary is not compatible with it because it contradicts the options of an Apothecary. This is purely your assumption on how the rules are intended to work. There is no rule, in either the Codex or the BRB to support this. Furthermore I'd like to point out the upgrade for an Apothecary comes before the other upgrades I believe Now this, is a totally seperate arguement to the " not allowed by a permissive system" one. Which has more weight, but again, has been discussed already, and there *are no rules printed* on this anywhere. It's all assumption and intention. The only guidence given in the entire range of rules is the Ork example, of how there is *no* order of operation as printed. Once you change the model to an Apothecary, it is no longer a Veteran, making any previous upgrades to it now illegal because only a VETERAN may have its armament changed. Assumption or wishful intention, again. There is no rule to state this. Again, in fact the Apothecaries Wargear is, and can only be, based on the DWT it is upgraded from. Can we please drop the arguement that this isn't allowed under a permissive rulesset, as there is no such restriction *anywhere*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 @Captain Idaho - I've not claimed that the upgrades are required to be given in the order in which they are printed. I'm only claiming, with evidence (see Ork FAQ), that there is an order and that all upgrades are not applied simultaneously. Until someone provides evidence, rather than opinion, to the contrary then I maintain that the codex specifically allows multiple upgrades to the same model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Unlike say a C:SM company champion, an apothecary doesnt have his own unique profile. So what makes him different than any other Veteran? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 You can't claim what I've said is assumption yet assume yourself that an Apothecary's upgrades are based upon the Veteran's upgrades before being upgraded. Again, you're making an assumption based upon order of the upgrades, which I've shown don't work above. You're assuming an Apothecary has wargear options for one. Secondly you're assuming it's ok to upgrade a model to have options then upgrade the same model to another model which hasn't got permission to have that wargear, because you upgraded your Veteran first. I've not made an assumption at all on the other hand. I'm following the rules by the letter, as I'm looking for permission for the Apothecary to have the options of a Veteran. You can keep refuting it until everyone gets bored and the topic is locked, but 40K rules, as ever, require explicit instruction to do something before you do it. You haven't been able to prove an Apothecary can have the options you're talking about in WRITTEN TEXT so you are providing arguments based around circumnavigating the requirement of permission to do something, based upon assumption it's ok to do this. Unlike say a C:SM company champion, an apothecary doesnt have his own unique profile. So what makes him different than any other Veteran? Apothecaries do have a profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Can a Veteran replace his bolt/pistol or chainsword with one of the options listed? Yes. Can a Veteran be upgraded to an Apothecary? Yes. Does the Apothecary lose any item of wargear? Yes - his Bolt Pistol, which is swapped for a Narthecium. So as long as you did not swap his Bolt Pistol out for one of the other options then this is fine. Is any other change to the Veteran's wargear required when upgrading to an Apothecary? No. Is the above all legal and above board? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 You can't claim what I've said is assumption yet assume yourself that an Apothecary's upgrades are based upon the Veteran's upgrades before being upgraded. But they have no specific Wargear list. Seriously, check it out in the 'dex if you haven't already. What wargear does an Apothecary have? How did you reach that decision? Do they have a Storm Bolter? Why? The answer is that the Apothecary was a DWT, and has the Wargear that DWT had. Again, you're making an assumption based upon order of the upgrades, which I've shown don't work above. No. An order of operation restriction would be the OMI example I have. Can't have both Power Armour *and* TDA/NDH. As both are based off of replacing Carapace armour. There's *no* restriton on the Apothecary upgrade, bar replacing the Power Fist. So if the DWT had a TH, then they couldn't be upgraded to an Apothecary. You're assuming an Apothecary has wargear options for one. I'm assuming nothing. The avaiablity or lack of, options for an Apothecary isn't in question. It's not part of the discussion. Secondly you're assuming it's ok to upgrade a model to have options then upgrade the same model to another model which hasn't got permission to have that wargear, because you upgraded your Veteran first Not an assumption. It's following the printed rules... I've not made an assumption at all on the other hand. I'm following the rules by the letter No, you're not. Edit: Cap, post *something* from either the BRB or the Dex. Any written rules to support your stance. You've posted nothing so far bar assumption and intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Crucial question you've missed; "Does an Apothecary have any options available to him?" - No. So you've got a model with wargear from options not available to it. This is a contradiction. What's more, it's an assumption to say the upgrades are taken in any particular order. I've pointed out briefly why this doesn't work in my previous posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 What is illegal? Where the rule stating this? Post *something* fromt he rulebooks. The Apothecary doesn't have the option to take a Storm Bolter. Therefore any DW Apothecary is an illegal model, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 You keep trying to avoid the problem with an Apothecary having options they aren't entitled to in the context of a permissive rules set. To be right on this one, quote the rule that specifies an Apothecary directly can have the options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 You keep trying to avoid the problem with an Apothecary having options they aren't entitled to in the context of a permissive rules set. To be right on this one, quote the rule that specifies an Apothecary directly can have the options. If I have given a model in my army upgrades that are legal and permitted, and you have done nothing to show that they are not, where exactly does it say that I then need to check against some mythical list which shows what wargear models are permitted to carry? And where is this list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 You keep trying to avoid the problem with an Apothecary having options they aren't entitled to in the context of a permissive rules set. To be right on this one, quote the rule that specifies an Apothecary directly can have the options. The Apothecary doens't have any options it's not entitled too. Much like the Storm Bolter he has, he is entitled too, while not having his own specific wargear list, nor any option to take a Storm Bolter. If you think a CML on an Apothecary is 'illegal' you *will* have to show the rule that stops the Apothecary from having one. So far, you've shown nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Permissive rule set. You need to show your permission to be able to do anything. Where's the explicit instruction saying an Apothecary can take the wargear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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