When did the Dark Angels switch to green?

[JJD]

I realise this has no doubt been asked before but with the discusion of cipher being in green I'm intrigued.

 

I am sure I read previously that the newly recruited calibanite space marines began painting their shoulder pads green to represent the forests of their homeworld and thus distinguishing themselves from the terran marines. This lead the calibanite marines painting their armour the green we know today. I can not remember where I read this.

 

Did this occur prior to the fall or after.

 

If this is not correct what was the reason for the change in colour scheme

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Good question altough the answer is difficult. Apparently, DA sarted painting the armour green during the "Lutherian heresy" according to the new Cypher dataslate )If I'm not mistaken). That's the only real piece of evidence we have so far. The rest is just speculation and brainstorming, I'm afraid.

[Beachymike123]

i'm fairly sure the DA chapter decided to paint their green after the fall to distinguish themselves from the fallen. at least thats what i was told when i used to play DA. i'm also fairly sure it ties in that the majority of the fallen were terran born marines (one version of events), so post-caliban DA could have chosen the green as their colour in memory of their homeworld. 

just my 2p on the subject. hope it helps. 

[JJD]

Well that probably explains why I have struggled to find a straight answer. Thanks Captin Lucifer

[Ordo Machinum]

There was also the Horus Heresy story (Call of the Lion?) where some of the Lion's crusading Dark Angels were permitted to colour their chapter symbol pauldron in green, in honour of their Calibanite origins.

[Grotsmasha]

Yep, the Lion allowed Calibanite Legionaires to show the Legion symbol on a field of green on their shoulder pads (via BL) and as Chaplain Lucifer said, in Cyphers new dataslate it says that DAs on Caliban who did not believe in Luther's "message" recoloured their armour.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Lucien Eilam]

The short answer is we don't know, it hasn't yet been covered explicitly.

 

What we do know, or at least have been told (because there's always room for a "he did say that, but he was lying/had been deceived" get-out clause), is:

 

1) Apparently nobody noticed they'd done it until after the Heresy, so they were presumably still in black when they finally reached Terra.

 

2) Calibanite Dark Angels began painting their Chapter symbol and heraldry on a green field before the Heresy, in honour of their home world and their old knightly orders.

 

3) The Dark Angels left with Luther were mostly the Terrans surviving from before El'Jonson was reunited with his Legion, so their armour wouldn't have had the green pauldron.

 

4) There have been hints that the old Deathwing story, about them painting their armour bone white before freeing a world from the grip of heresy, is really an allegory of the Fall.

 

5) And the new Cypher book says some Dark Angels on Caliban may have repainted their armour in rejection of Luther.

 

Put together, it strongly suggests that both colour changes were a way of telling friend from foe at the Fall of Caliban.

 

Perhaps the Ravenwing, being a vanguard force, didn't have time to repaint their armour before beginning the attack, explaining why they retained the black.

[Lord Sesslec]

It's great to finally have answer to that question, thanks to the Cypher Dataslate. It also gies someway to answer the question why his armour is painted green...

[Phoebus]

The short answer is we don't know, it hasn't yet been covered explicitly.

 

What we do know is:

 

3) The Dark Angels left with Luther were mostly the Terrans surviving from before El'Johnson was reunited with his Legion, so their armour wouldn't have had the green pauldron.

 

That was not the case.  Per Fallen Angels, the majority of the roughly five hundred Dark Angels who accompanied Luther were Calibanites.

 

This topic has a fairly simple answer that can be sourced to two stories:

 

1. In "Call of the Lion", Belath tells Astelan that, per the Lion's orders, Calibanite Chapters "... are to wear the green of [their] home world's forests ... as a remembrance of the battles fought to tame Caliban ..."

 

2. In the Cypher Dataslate, those Dark Angels on Caliban who refused to follow Luther into rebellion “... seem to have repainted their armour” green.

 

The former can be taken as a fact - well, about as well as ANY quote can be taken as fact during a war that occurred ten thousand years in the past!  The latter comes courtesy of incomplete records that the Dark Angels recovered from the Tower of Angels after the destruction of Caliban.  There is no obvious reason to doubt the integrity of the information, but it's important to note that this is considered a hint as to why the Dark Angels as a whole changed their colors after Caliban.

[Lucien Eilam]

That was not the case.  Per Fallen Angels, the majority of the roughly five hundred Dark Angels who accompanied Luther were Calibanites.

 

Nope. The 500 sent back in Fallen Angels certainly are Calibanites, but there's no basis to assume they were the only Dark Angels ever sent back. Angels of Darkness describes an entire Terran Chapter being exiled to Caliban, and suggests this wasn't unique, so the Calibanites were outnumbered 2:1 already. Fallen Angels just describes the event that saw Luther sent back.

[JJD]

 

 

 

The short answer is we don't know, it hasn't yet been covered explicitly.

 

What we do know is:

 

3) The Dark Angels left with Luther were mostly the Terrans surviving from before El'Johnson was reunited with his Legion, so their armour wouldn't have had the green pauldron.

That was not the case. Per Fallen Angels, the majority of the roughly five hundred Dark Angels who accompanied Luther were Calibanites.

 

This topic has a fairly simple answer that can be sourced to two stories:

 

1. In "Call of the Lion", Belath tells Astelan that, per the Lion's orders, Calibanite Chapters "... are to wear the green of [their] home world's forests ... as a remembrance of the battles fought to tame Caliban ..."

 

2. In the Cypher Dataslate, those Dark Angels on Caliban who refused to follow Luther into rebellion “... seem to have repainted their armour” green.

 

The former can be taken as a fact - well, about as well as ANY quote can be taken as fact during a war that occurred ten thousand years in the past! The latter comes courtesy of incomplete records that the Dark Angels recovered from the Tower of Angels after the destruction of Caliban. There is no obvious reason to doubt the integrity of the information, but it's important to note that this is considered a hint as to why the Dark Angels as a whole changed their colors after Caliban.

I haven't read call of the lion at what point does it take place

[Phoebus]

 

That was not the case.  Per Fallen Angels, the majority of the roughly five hundred Dark Angels who accompanied Luther were Calibanites.

 

Nope. The 500 sent back in Fallen Angels certainly are Calibanites, but there's no basis to assume they were the only Dark Angels ever sent back. Angels of Darkness describes an entire Terran Chapter being exiled to Caliban, and suggests this wasn't unique, so the Calibanites were outnumbered 2:1 already. Fallen Angels just describes the event that saw Luther sent back.

 

There is a conflict between in Astelan's recollections in Angels of Darkness and the events we see in Fallen Angels.  No source disputes that Luther returned to Caliban with five hundred predominately Calibanite Dark Angels.  On the other hand, Astelan's account of how he was sent to Caliban in disgrace directly conflicts with "Call of the Lion", which was also written by Gav Thorpe.  I'm not saying it's impossible that Astelan's entire Chapter was sent back with him.  I am, however, pointing out that it's dubious to state with certainty that they did, and to assume that all other Space Marines sent back for the same purpose were Terran as well.

 

JJD,

 

There is no certain date for "Call of the Lion".  Fallen Angels starts 150 years into the Great Crusade, as Luther returns to Caliban.  The Lion's reunification with the Emperor was only a short (but indeterminate) time before that.  In "Call of the Lion", Astelan has served under the Lion for "a few years" - a minimum of four, based on his Chapter's last re-supply.  Thus, my guess is that the story takes place sometime between the 150th and 155th year of the Great Crusade.

[Grand Master Belial]

A point of order.

 

Black Library stories cannot be declared as canon.

 

The official canon is what is placed in the Codex. Though I would put the data slate behind this in precedence as it was written by Games Workshop from their Games Dev team.

 

That being said, there is enough corroboration to allow for both interpretations to co-exist within the grim dark 40K universe and the Administratum's ability to misplace or scribe a line that will be misinterpreted for centuries.

[Phoebus]

Grand Master Belial, is that a tenable position?  At least one member of these boards who also happens to be an author published by the Black Library for the Horus Heresy series and the Warhammer 40k imprint alike has stated - repeatedly - that Games Workshop absolutely considers novels to be part of the canon.  He cites very credible sources, to include the managers of the intellectual property in question.

[Grand Master Belial]

While I don't have the credentials you sited, I would say that should GW choose to Retcon some bit of history in a later edition. Their word would override what has been written before. They did it with the modification of the Plains World Incident to remove the Genestealer Cult and it became the blurb we see in the Codex.

 

I will concede that GW has incorporated much of what has been written by Black Library's authors into the canon of 40k, but GW is the ultimate owner of the Intellectual Property and they will have final say as to what stays and what goes.

[[TA]Typher]

Pretty sure it was a casual friday that got out of hand.

[Phoebus]

While I don't have the credentials you sited, I would say that should GW choose to Retcon some bit of history in a later edition. Their word would override what has been written before. They did it with the modification of the Plains World Incident to remove the Genestealer Cult and it became the blurb we see in the Codex.

I will concede that GW has incorporated much of what has been written by Black Library's authors into the canon of 40k, but GW is the ultimate owner of the Intellectual Property and they will have final say as to what stays and what goes.

It's really neither here nor there, but you might find of interest the topics that A D-B was involved in about this subject (on these very forums!). I found it eye-opening, to say the least. When people like Alan Merrett and Alan Bligh talk to the Black Library authors in regards to background material and canon, that says something!

[Bryan Blaire]

Black Library IS GW, people. They are not separate companies. They are a single company using a brand name for the publishing novels/stories section of their business. They are one in the same business. If BL publishes something, that is GW publishing something. When a BL author goes to write something, they must consult with the GW IP unit already, because they are the same company. BL IS GW IP.

 

Black Library is a division of Games Workshop.

 

© Copyright Games Workshop Limited 2013. Games Workshop, BL Publishing, Black Library, Warhammer, Warhammer 40,000, the foregoing marks' respective logos and all associated marks, logos, places, names, creatures, races and race insignia/devices/logos/symbols, vehicles, locations, weapons, units, characters, products, illustrations and images from the Warhammer world and Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, ™ and/or © Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2013, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. For further information read the Games Workshop IP Policy.

Games Workshop Ltd, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS. Registered in England and Wales - Company No. 01467092. VAT No. GB 580853421

Notice how it says that BL Publishing and Black Library are registered marks of GW Ltd and BL is a division of GW... You don't do that if you are a totally separate company with limited ties due to licensing.

 

Again, BL IS GW. If BL says it, GW is saying it. If GW is saying it, then BL is saying it.

 

Also, you can't "declare" canonicity, when the authors themselves explain that GW is operating under a "loose canon" policy. We may not like it, but there it is.

[JJD]

 

 

 

 

That was not the case. Per Fallen Angels, the majority of the roughly five hundred Dark Angels who accompanied Luther were Calibanites.

 

Nope. The 500 sent back in Fallen Angels certainly are Calibanites, but there's no basis to assume they were the only Dark Angels ever sent back. Angels of Darkness describes an entire Terran Chapter being exiled to Caliban, and suggests this wasn't unique, so the Calibanites were outnumbered 2:1 already. Fallen Angels just describes the event that saw Luther sent back.

There is a conflict between in Astelan's recollections in Angels of Darkness and the events we see in Fallen Angels. No source disputes that Luther returned to Caliban with five hundred predominately Calibanite Dark Angels. On the other hand, Astelan's account of how he was sent to Caliban in disgrace directly conflicts with "Call of the Lion", which was also written by Gav Thorpe. I'm not saying it's impossible that Astelan's entire Chapter was sent back with him. I am, however, pointing out that it's dubious to state with certainty that they did, and to assume that all other Space Marines sent back for the same purpose were Terran as well.

 

JJD,

 

There is no certain date for "Call of the Lion". Fallen Angels starts 150 years into the Great Crusade, as Luther returns to Caliban. The Lion's reunification with the Emperor was only a short (but indeterminate) time before that. In "Call of the Lion", Astelan has served under the Lion for "a few years" - a minimum of four, based on his Chapter's last re-supply. Thus, my guess is that the story takes place sometime between the 150th and 155th year of the Great Crusade.

So it would seem that the order for calibanite DAs to change to green came prior to the fall. Does

this explain why Cypher is seen in green.

[JJD]

Also I was posting from my phone last night and have only just noticed the typo in the title of this thread oops

[Isiah]

Also I was posting from my phone last night and have only just noticed the typo in the title of this thread oops

Fixed. Also from my phone ;)

[Phoebus]

JJD,

 

The background material from the Cypher dataslate doesn't give clear-cut answers.  One could argue that the fact that the Calibanite Dark Angels who fought Luther were in green power armour points to Cypher being on their side.  Cypher painting his power armour green as a way to cause trouble for the modern Dark Angels has been a popular idea in the past... but I don't think it works any longer; the new material states he has gone out of his way to help the Dark Angels on occasion, by covering up their tracks.

[IanSturrock]

Cypher going green so he *looks* like he's a regular Dark Angel could well work though...

[Grimdarkness]

They never did the "truth" is the HH era D.A where painted in SCHWARZ GRÜN Translated as black green it is only now after 10'000 year's of wear that the color has lightened to a more easily seen green.

 

Or that's what I tell players when I use my forge world model's (painted black green) in 40K games.

[Master Sheol]

I have a theory about DA repainting to green...

The DA on Caliban not following Luther in treachery repainted their armour full green... I assume they were mostly Calibanites...

When the final duel between Jonson and Luther happened Cypher flew away (carrying the broken sword of the Lion it seems) to start His mission and the Fallen were sucked in the warp but probably the loyalists on Caliban not so a few remained on the ruins of Caliban and were found by the DA disembarking on the Rock...

The DA then repainted their armour full green in honour of the few ones on Caliban that remained loyal to the Lion (as happened later to the DW armour repainted bone White)...

If it happened this way means that the DA landed on the ruins of Caliban knew that Cypher is loyalist making all the story really intriguing...