Fibonacci Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 There are many rules in place when making a shooting attack. PotMS lets you override one of them; shots fired while moving. It does not override a weapon's firing arc, it does not override Invisibility and it does not override Hard To Hit. If you look at droppods and thier assault ramps you can see the same sort of rule override effects. An assault ramp lets a unit assault on the turn it disembarks. The ramp overrides Disembark; but it still won't let a unit assault on the turn it came in from reserves. There are multiple rules preventing a unit from assaulting on the turn the droppod comes in and the ramp only overrides the one. Similarly, there could be multiple rules that force a vehcle to make Snap Shots and PotMS can override just the one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 PotMS doesn't specifically override anything to do with movement. It's a general allows one more than usual, regardless of where the restriction comes from. Sure, it usually comes from movement, but that's not the only restriction covered. Edit: Otherwise it would be worded differently, and specify Combat Speed. Edit2: So how does PotMS interact with Shaken/Stunned? Shaken/Stunned makes it so all your shots are Snap Shots. PotMS can't modify a Snap Shot. Does PotMS let you shoot one shot *not* as a Snap Shot? Or does PotMS do nothing to Shaken/Stunned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I think it replaces the snap shot by a normal shot. This thread blows my mind because I never thought about using the Land Raider for Anti-Air. Oh, the Redemeer I planned for my list just got a lot more interesting ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I think it replaces the snap shot by a normal shot. And yet, it never actually says that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 What other way is there of not using your full BS to shoot? Why doesn't PotMS specifically state it allows you to fire a Snap Shot at full BS? That way, it wouldn't cause a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I think it replaces the snap shot by a normal shot. T I think it makes all shots automatic hits that ignore all saves and cause 6d6 explosion results each. Too bad the rules don't say it ignores Snap Shots/ But good luck with your thoughts anyway. Why doesn't PotMS specifically state it allows you to fire a Snap Shot at full BS? The full BS of a snap shot is -- drum roll please -- BS1! [edit] OK ... how about this: "A vehicle that moved at Combat Speed may fire a single weapon using its Ballistic Skill." So if I move at Combat Speed I can shoot at a flyer using my Ballistic Skill. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 The full BS of a snap shot is -- drum roll please -- BS1! Yup. So either it does nothing. By letting you make an extra snap shot at BS1. Or by not modifying a Snap Shots BS1 to the 'full' BS of the Vehicle. Because it can't modify a snap shot. So how does PotMS actually do anything again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 I think it replaces the snap shot by a normal shot. And yet, it never actually says that. It never actually says that indeed, but POTMS is actually very large. Firing one more weapon at full ballistic skill than normally permitted means that normally in snap shots there are 0 weapons permitted to fire at full ballistic skill, and now there is one more, for a total of 1. I think it replaces the snap shot by a normal shot. T I think it makes all shots automatic hits that ignore all saves and cause 6d6 explosion results each. Too bad the rules don't say it ignores Snap Shots/ But good luck with your thoughts anyway. Why doesn't PotMS specifically state it allows you to fire a Snap Shot at full BS? The full BS of a snap shot is -- drum roll please -- BS1! Regarding the first part of your post, what a constructive and smart comment. Regarding the second part of your post, it's very well known that Snap Shots are BS1 WS10 S5 T5 I3 A2 Ld8 2+ save. ... Oh that's right, Snap Shots don't have a profile, they're not a unit ! Snap Shots do not reduce the BS of a model to 1, the model is counted to have BS1 for the purpose of that shot. If you disagree with that, then read the book again. POTMS allows the vehicle to make one more shot than normal at ITS full Ballistic Skill (in this case 4), in which case, 1 shot amongst the Snap Shots is not shot with a BS counted as BS1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 But again, PotMS cannot change the BS of a snap shot from BS1 to BSfull. As it doesn't specifically mention that it can, which is a new requirement in 7th. The discussion here is revolving around whether PotMS doesn't actually modify a Snap Shot, but lets you not shoot as a Snap Shot, but take a normal shot instead. Which you might say is actually modifying a snap shot as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 This is a great example of how overthinking the bits of a rule can make it way too confusing. But again, PotMS cannot change the BS of a snap shot from BS1 to BSfull.As it doesn't specifically mention that it can, which is a new requirement in 7th.The discussion here is revolving around whether PotMS doesn't actually modify a Snap Shot, but lets you not shoot as a Snap Shot, but take a normal shot instead.Which you might say is actually modifying a snap shot as well... That's just it. It isn't modifying a snap shot. It is modifying the conditions which cause you to make snap shots. Because it doesn't modify the specific condition that allows you to shoot at flyers at full bs, it does not allow one more than normal shot at full ballistic at flyers.It does allow you to move any speed and shoot one. It does allow you to shoot ordnance and a single other weapon. These sorts of rules do not have a seperate condition that requires an over ride. Merged double post, Dam13n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 But again, PotMS cannot change the BS of a snap shot from BS1 to BSfull. As it doesn't specifically mention that it can, which is a new requirement in 7th. The discussion here is revolving around whether PotMS doesn't actually modify a Snap Shot, but lets you not shoot as a Snap Shot, but take a normal shot instead. Which you might say is actually modifying a snap shot as well... That's just it. It isn't modifying a snap shot. It is modifying the conditions which cause you to make snap shots. Because it doesn't modify the specific condition that allows you to shoot at flyers at full bs, it does not allow one more than normal shot at full ballistic at flyers. It does allow you to move any speed and shoot one. It does allow you to shoot ordnance and a single other weapon. These sorts of rules do not have a seperate condition that requires an over ride. Exactly what Raeven said. It is not modifying the BS at which the vehicle takes a Snap Shot. One weapon makes a regular shot instead of firing a Snap Shot. Regarding Fliers, Raeven is also right, because unless a model has Skyfire, then the shots at fliers must be Snap Shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 That's just it. It isn't modifying a snap shot. It is modifying the conditions which cause you to make snap shots. Because it doesn't modify the specific condition that allows you to shoot at flyers at full bs, it does not allow one more than normal shot at full ballistic at flyers. I don't get this. 1: Shaken/Stunned makes you Snap Shot. 2: Moving Cruising Speed makes you Snap Shot. 3: Targeting a Flyer makes you Snap Shot. 4: Shooting an Ordinance Weapon makes you Snap Shop. Does PotMS modify the condition which causes you to make a Snap Shot? All four of those are conditions that cause you to make a Snap Shot. Why does PotMS only negate conditions 2 and 4, and not 1 or 3? There is *no* specific condition specified in the PotMS rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 That's just it. It isn't modifying a snap shot. It is modifying the conditions which cause you to make snap shots. Because it doesn't modify the specific condition that allows you to shoot at flyers at full bs, it does not allow one more than normal shot at full ballistic at flyers. I don't get this. 1: Shaken/Stunned makes you Snap Shot. 2: Moving Cruising Speed makes you Snap Shot. 3: Targeting a Flyer makes you Snap Shot. 4: Shooting an Ordinance Weapon makes you Snap Shop. Does PotMS modify the condition which causes you to make a Snap Shot? All four of those are conditions that cause you to make a Snap Shot. Why does PotMS only negate conditions 2 and 4, and not 1 or 3? There is *no* specific condition specified in the PotMS rule. Personally, I would interpret it as able to fire 1 weapon at Fliers at full BS. Raeven pointed out that only Snap Shots can be made unless the model has Skyfire, which is a bit more confusing there, so for the sake of avoiding an argument, I guess one could say a ground model really needs to have Skyfire. In any case, I've submitted this question to the gamefaqs team of GW, we might get an answer in 8 to 10 months :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raeven Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 That's just it. It isn't modifying a snap shot. It is modifying the conditions which cause you to make snap shots. Because it doesn't modify the specific condition that allows you to shoot at flyers at full bs, it does not allow one more than normal shot at full ballistic at flyers. I don't get this. 1: Shaken/Stunned makes you Snap Shot. 2: Moving Cruising Speed makes you Snap Shot. 3: Targeting a Flyer makes you Snap Shot. 4: Shooting an Ordinance Weapon makes you Snap Shop. Does PotMS modify the condition which causes you to make a Snap Shot? All four of those are conditions that cause you to make a Snap Shot. Why does PotMS only negate conditions 2 and 4, and not 1 or 3? There is *no* specific condition specified in the PotMS rule. It does modify the conditions for 1, 3, and 4. Like you said, it isn't specific which conditions it modifies. The reason it does not modify the condition for flyers, is because shooting at flyers has a very specific rule that the model has to have and a caveat within that rule that states no other rule can override it unless it specifically states so. As far as I am aware (haven't fully read thru the new rules) nothing else has that caveat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 That's just it. It isn't modifying a snap shot. It is modifying the conditions which cause you to make snap shots. Because it doesn't modify the specific condition that allows you to shoot at flyers at full bs, it does not allow one more than normal shot at full ballistic at flyers. I don't get this. 1: Shaken/Stunned makes you Snap Shot. 2: Moving Cruising Speed makes you Snap Shot. 3: Targeting a Flyer makes you Snap Shot. 4: Shooting an Ordinance Weapon makes you Snap Shop. Does PotMS modify the condition which causes you to make a Snap Shot? All four of those are conditions that cause you to make a Snap Shot. Why does PotMS only negate conditions 2 and 4, and not 1 or 3? There is *no* specific condition specified in the PotMS rule. I don't get why this is so hard to understand. The only reason that it does not work against flyers is because under Hard to Hit is specifically says you have to have skyfire to shoot normal shots. None of the other instances have any such restrictions. Therefore PotMS overrides having to shoot a snap shot. The moving and shooting section even specifically references the number of weapons you can shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 · Hidden by Dam13n, June 11, 2014 - Not constructive Hidden by Dam13n, June 11, 2014 - Not constructive Why do I :cussing bother Link to comment
Raeven Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 · Hidden by Dam13n, June 11, 2014 - Response to non-constructive post Hidden by Dam13n, June 11, 2014 - Response to non-constructive post It's an addiction. Link to comment
Gentlemanloser Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 And Snap Shot also says you have to specifically state you can modify a Snap Shot. Which PotMS doesn't. Either it can Modify a Snap Shot into a 'normal' Shot, for every occurance. Or it can't change *any* Snap Shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Its not modifying a snap shot, there is no snap shot to modify. There is only an afditional shot at normal bs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 So if you're Stunned, you can only Snap Shot. Yet PotMS lets you ignore that restriciton and fire as Normal. But if you target a flier, you can only Snap Shot. Yet PotMS lets you ignore this restriciton and fire as Normal. Which must in turn be a Snap Shot, as you're targetting a Flier. That's convoluted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 So if you're Stunned, you can only Snap Shot. Yet PotMS lets you ignore that restriciton and fire as Normal. But if you target a flier, you can only Snap Shot. Yet PotMS lets you ignore this restriciton and fire as Normal. Which must in turn be a Snap Shot, as you're targetting a Flier. That's convoluted... As I understand it, yes. That is pretty much spot on. POTMS grants you an additional shot at normal BS. From that point on, all other rules apply - line of sight, range, arc of fire, shooting at a flier... it's like following the rules for Instant Death vs Eternal Warrior. One action is modified by the other. Sicarius insta kills on a 6. POTMS fires at normal BS. Sicarius rolls a 6 against a model with Eternal Warrior. POTMS targets a flyer. Instant Death is negated. POTMS can only fire snap shots. That's how I read it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 POTMS grants you an additional shot at normal BS. From that point on, all other rules apply - line of sight, range, arc of fire, shooting at a flier... Or being stunned? Or having fired an Ordinance? Why are some ignored, and others, not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 POTMS grants you an additional shot at normal BS. From that point on, all other rules apply - line of sight, range, arc of fire, shooting at a flier... Or being stunned? Or having fired an Ordinance? Why are some ignored, and others, not. Because shooting at a flyer has an additional condition to remove Snap Shots - namely Skyfire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 As did Shaken and Stunned (until Fortitude was removed). If Fortitude still existed, would that have stopped all PotMS from working with Shaken/Stunned? How about Living Metal? That's an additional condition that removes Shaken/Stunned (doesn't it? Not read the 'cron dex in ages...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted June 11, 2014 Share Posted June 11, 2014 Fliers have the hard to hit rule. This is a caveat you always snap fire unless you got skyfire. None of your other points have that caveat and thus are open to modification. It's fairly concrete, no matter how much you try and twist it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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