Athrawes Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 This thread is devoted to discussion of rules, units, traits ect. for My II Legion Project (Link in SIg) I would really appretiate your help on the WIP rules below. Legiones Astartes (Lightning Bearers) All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions: · Legiones Astartes: Units with this special rule may always attempt to regroup at their normal Leadership value, regardless of casualties. · Battle-Scrying: All units with this rule gain the brotherhood of Psykers (Level 1). Praetors and Librarians may choose to purchase additional mastery levels at the cost of 20pts per level, up to 3 levels. When generating psychic powers, Librarians and Praetors may choose from the Diviniation and Sanctic Deamonology disciplines. All other units may only choose the Divination Primaris power: Precience. Lightning Bearers Unique Rite of War: Storms Wrath Effects: (some kind of bonus to first turn/siezing the initiative. Limitations: · With the exception of the Librarian type, detatchments using this Rite of War may only take a single consul as part of their HQ choices. · Detachments using this write of war may not take allied Space Marine Legion detatchments. Icarion The StormbornThe Master of The Thunder Legion, The Guiding Star, The Second Son, The Storms Eye http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2014/101/6/f/the_ii_primarch__icarion_the_stormborn_by_saint_max-d7e1nai.jpg Artwork By Ibrahem Swaidhttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed7.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed4.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed6.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed2-2.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed3.jpghttp://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i327/nickfayette1/unnamed5.jpg Sculpted by Francesco Antonio Pizzo WIP Rules for Representing the II Primarch in Game. Icarion The Stormborn (525pts) WS 7BS 5S 6T 6W 5I 9A 5Ld 10Sv 3+Unit Type:• Infantry (Character) Unit Composition:• 1 (Unique)Equipment:• Time-lost Aegis• Thunderchild• The SphereSpecial Rules:• Primarch• Sire of the Thunder Guardians• Bulky• Pysker (Level 4)• Artful Mind• Adamantium WillTime-lost AegisThe Time-Lost Aegis is a beautiful and lightweight suit of psychically infused admantium and ceramite plates. Inlaid with powerful psychic wards and and myriad of focusing crystals, the Aegis is said to enhance it's bearers psychic foresight to supernatural levels.The Time-Lost Aegis Confers a 3+ save and a 4+ Invulnerable save. In addition, whenever Icarion attempts to make deny the witch roles, subtract 1 warp charge from the amount required to nullify the psychic power.Once a game, Icarion may choose to use the Armor’s special ability.At the end of any assault phase in which Icarion take at least 1 wound, Icarion may choose to refight the combat from the beginning. Resetting wounds and attacks from the beginning of the assault phase.Note, only the combat in which I carrion takes part is refought and the Second results must be kept (Even if they are worse).ThunderchildOne of many technological relics said to have been claimed by a Young Icarion during his expeditions to the dangerous and mysterious techno-vaults of Madrigals past Golden age. Thunderchild is potent spear said to have come from the personal armory of the long since vanquished Thunder king. The weapon throbs with untapped potential and a talented psyker can channel that energy into arc lightning that strikes nearby foes.Weapon Range Str AP TypeThunderchild - +2 2 Melee, Force, Master-Crafted, Deflagrate, HaywireArc lightning 18” 6 5 Assault 3, Master-Crafted, Deflagrate, HaywireThe SpherePerhaps the most esoteric device carried by Icarion. The Sphere is a relic from an aeons dead civilization believed to have once ruled the galaxy. It's intricate workings have both impressed and confounded the greatest minds of the Martian Mechanicum and, it is whispered that a mercurial sentience lives within The Sphere that may choose to aid it's wielder. At the beginning of each turn, Icarion must role to determine the benefit granted by The Sphere. These benefits remain in effect until the beginning of your next turn. Icarion always begins the game with one of these effects activated.D61 Nothing Happens (whirring noises and the odd chirp can be heard from within)2-3 Gain: +2 Attacks4-5 Receive: 3+ Invulnerable Save6 Discount the first roll 6 when making a psychic test for the purpose of determining perils of the Warp.Artful MindIcarion may roll for 4 Psychic powers from the Divination or Sanctic psychic Disciplines. Additionally, when generating psychic powers, he may opt to replace any of his psychic powers with the Primaris power of ANY psychic discipline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I'm quite impressed. Great work on this. I normally rather dislike work on the lost legions, but this is probably the only exception. This is well above and beyond - thanks for sharing! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 As always, I'm impressed by the artwork, and the sculpt looks great. I assume you'd like a bit of feedback on the rules. Primarch and Adamntium Will is redundant, though. The former includes the latter. You've given him Sire of the Thunder Guardians, but not written up rules for it. Just not gotten there yet? For the armor's first power, I think it would be easier to just phrase it as 'he receives one automatic success' or something similar. Just the wording on it is a little clunky. That might be a little too powerful, though. You're basically increasing the cost of all of your opponent's psychic powers by 1. If the enemy succeeds at casting a WC1 spell with just one success, and then his Deny attempt requires one fewer success, he now needs 0 successes to deny. So he just says he's denying the power and then rolls no dice. What? The armor's second power seems like it would be a massive pain to actually play. You decide after the combat is resolved if you want to refight it. That means going back and restoring pulled models and stopping the game to redo part of a phase you've already done. Thunderchild seems... really broken. 3 shots of master-crafted haywire at BS5 is going to kill most standard vehicles in one turn. Hell, if he's in charge range, he can just fire off the arc lightning, charge in with 6-8 attacks, and have a potential 9-11 haywire attacks in one turn. You're talking about one-turn superheavy removal. Deflagrate on S8 AP2 melee attacks is also pretty absurd. Considering these attacks automatically hit, it's the equivalent of him having closer to 8 base attacks. Initiative 9 is also pretty crazy, that's faster than even Fulgrim, who is supposed to be really bloody fast. A lot of the other primarchs are 5-7, Fulgrim was exceptional for having 8. The Sphere doesn't seem OP, but it does feel a little tacked on and really RNG-ish. It does contribute to his issue of just dumping haywire attacks all over the place. I would rather see this simplified in one of two ways. Either flat bonuses rolled into his stats, or an activate-able. You choose the power you want from it, roll a d6, and on a 3+ it works. On a 2, you get nothing. On a 1, the sphere packs up for the rest of the battle. Or something, you could tweak the numbers for that, it's just the concept. The constructive part of the criticism... I'd look at Smite as the basis of the arc lightning power of Thunderchild. An essentially powered-up, free cast version of that is still quite good. 24" S6 AP2 Assault 4 or something. I think it's a shame to have those swords on the model and no rules for them, I'd think about some alternate weapon arrangements. Maybe give him the option each assault phase to wield Thunderchild two-handed for +initiative +strength attacks, and use the swords for a +attacks option? As for Time-Lost Aegis' second ability, I would think about making this a simple forced reroll for your opponent. Maybe after to-hits are made but before to-wounds, you can force your opponent to reroll all attacks directed against him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherCaptainArkhan Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 The Time-lost Aegis' 'rewind time' ability is an insanely cool concept that would be a pain in the arse in actual gameplay. A simple way to fix it would be to limit its effects to a challenge, rather than an entire combat. Otherwise looks great to me, ditto on the comments above though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724826 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted June 20, 2014 Author Share Posted June 20, 2014 I haven't gotten around to creating sire of the legion rules yet (as I don't have the Legion Astartes rules figured out either) and was hopping for some input. Initiative 9 is probably overkill, but he is glass cannon and dies really fast if he doesn't get an attack off first. Maybe lowering it to initiative 8 to bring to parity with Fulgrim would be a better bet. In my test Games against Horus he still gets his rear handed to him, but I agree completely with you sentiments. It kind of slipped my mind what so much haywire and ap 2 deflagrate would do, so that is definitely out. I still really like the idea of lightning attacks causing haywire but again, that should really be toned down, so how about this fix? Weapon Range Str AP TypeThunderchild - +2 2 Melee, Force, Master-Crafted, Static OverchargeArc lightning 18” 5 5 Assault 3, Deflagrate, Static Overcharge Static Overharge A weapon with this rule may count one attack per turn as having the Haywire special rule. +++++ I'd really like to find a practical solution to how Time-lost Aegis would work, limiting it to challenges seems like a good idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 How about his Storm Eagle 'Harbinger'? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactire Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Really liking that sculpt, excellent work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 It actually looks really good... I am impressed. What kind of price are we looking at? Also, no one should cost more points than Horus or the potential Guilliman/Emperor models that will eventually be released. I do love the model though. The rules could use some tinkering. I don't feel a spear or Lance weapon like what he wields should give him +2 strength. Possibly +1 with initiative 8. I do like like the idea of overcharging a single hit with haywire. Basically, I don't feel this Primarch should be hitting as fast as Fulgrim and as hard as Angron. Maybe keep Fulgrim's speed but lose some strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724920 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Perhaps something a little more like this? We increase his W to 6 to bring him on par with most of the other primarchs. The exceptionally tough ones get T7, W7, or both, but he's just 'average' with T6 W6, and made a little softer by his 2+/4++ (more on this later). Toning his I down to 7 brings him to parity with the 'fast' primarchs but leaves room for Fulgrim at the top, but boosting his A to 6 shows that he is fast in other ways, being able to land more blows than Fulgrim in the same amount of time. Again, focusing on the glass cannon approach you were thinking of. Now, from what I remember of the fluff for these guys, they're basically like divination specialists, who kind of went the opposite way of the 1k sons? They focus on controlling and suppressing the warp? So, let's talk about Denying the Witch. As a ML4 psyker with Adamantium will, most of his denies will be at a 3+. I can't actually think of any 30k psykers so far who will even be on parity with him. Even Lorgar Transfigured is only ML3. Anyway, this is already a huge advantage, having several power dice to throw around and easier denies than casts. But let's amp that up. 1. Sire of the Thunder Guardians will allow him to make Deny attempts for any unit in a friendly Legiones Astartes (Thunder Guardians) detachment as though they were within Psychic Hood range. 2. Time-Lost Aegis will provide him with 2 extra dice for making deny rolls each turn. This combination gives him 6+d6 dice for denies each turn, allows him to extend his protection to his sons on the same battlefield, and lets him deny on 3+'s where his opponents are casting on 4+'s with fewer dice to start with. On the topic of the Aegis, let's talk rerolls. Repeating an entire phase/combat is just not feasible from a gameplay standpoint. Limiting it to a challenge is a little better. But I'm still not sure the rule is sound in the first place. Given that it's triggered by him taking a wound, I assume this is a one-use survivability tool to help make sure he gets his damage in. Instead? Let's transfer his invul booster from the Sphere to his armor, and tie it some warp charge/foresight kind of stuff. And not make it too cheap, so it's not something you do automatically every turn, but a choice you have to make. Now, like I said, I think we can roll a bonus to initiative into Thunderchild and open up the option for you to make something up for those swords. Well, I'll make something up for those swords, and you can feel free to ignore it if you don't like it. I agree that haywire makes a lot of sense for some lightning-based attacks, but we just need to make sure it's not spammy. I also liked the idea of deflagrate for chain-hits, to represent lightning arcing from target to target, but it was also not implemented perfectly. I think we can find a happy medium, though. Also, dropping mastercrafted. Despite pretty much every primarch's weapon being a masterwork, not all of them are mastercrafted, and in Icarion's specific instance I think it is more appropriate for him to be casting Prescience to gain his rerolls than for him to receive them from his weapon. Or, he could be using The Sphere. WS7 BS5 S6 T6 W6 I7 A6 Ld10 Sv2+ Unit Type:• Infantry (Character) Unit Composition:• 1 (Unique)Wargear:• Time-lost Aegis• Thunderchild • (Swords)• The SphereSpecial Rules:• Primarch• Sire of the Thunder Guardians• Bulky• Pysker (Level 4)• Artful Mind Sire of the Thunder Guardians While Icarion is present on the battlefield, he may perform Deny the Witch rolls for all friendly Thunder Guardians models as though he were in Psychic Hood range. Time-Lost Aegis The Time-Lost Aegis is a beautiful and lightweight suit of psychically infused adamantium and ceramite plates. Inlaid with powerful psychic wards and and myriad of focusing crystals, the Aegis protects Icarion from most mundane attacks while bolstering his psychic defenses. At the same time, it focuses his foresight, allowing him to predict his enemy's attacks before they even know they will make them - and so warned, allows him to dodge them with ease.The Time-Lost Aegis Confers a 2+ armour save and a 4+ invulnerable save. In addition, it also provides Icarion with 2 additional dice for making Deny the Witch tests. During his psychic phase, Icarion can choose to expend two warp charge to increase his armor's invulnerable save to 3+ until the beginning of his next psychic phase. Thunderchild One of many technological relics said to have been claimed by a Young Icarion during his expeditions to the dangerous and mysterious techno-vaults of Madrigals past Golden age. Thunderchild is potent spear said to have come from the personal armory of the long since vanquished Thunder king. The weapon throbs with untapped potential and a talented psyker can channel that energy into arc lightning that strikes nearby foes. In combat, the spear crackles with power, slicing through armor with contemptuous ease and shocking the life out of any of those unfortunate enough to feel its edge.Weapon Range Str AP TypeThunderchild - +2 2 Melee, Force, Deadly Reach, ArmourbaneArc lightning 18” 6 2 Assault 1, Cone, Haywire Deadly Reach: While wielding Thunderchild, Icarion receives +1 Initiative Cone: Draw a line 18 inches long from the tip of the weapon and place the small blast template at the end. Any models, friend or foe, under the template itself or in the area between the edges of the template and the tip of the weapon are hit automatically. Swords These fancy swords don't have a name, but lots of people name their swords. Weapon Range Str AP TypeSwords - User 2 Melee, Rampage, Paired Paired: +1 Attack The SpherePerhaps the most esoteric device carried by Icarion. The Sphere is a relic from an aeons dead civilization believed to have once ruled the galaxy. It's intricate workings have both impressed and confounded the greatest minds of the Martian Mechanicum and, it is whispered that a mercurial sentience lives within The Sphere that may choose to aid it's wielder. At the beginning of each of his controlling player's turns, Icarion may seek the Sphere's assistance. To do so, he may choose one of the following benefits and then must roll to see if he receives it. These benefits remain in effect until the beginning of your next turn. Benefits: 1. Reroll one failed to-hit or to-wound roll 2. Reroll one failed armor, invul, or cover save 3. Force your opponent to reroll one successful to hit or to-wound roll made against Icarion 4. Force your opponent to reroll one successful armor, invul, or cover save made against one of Icarion's attacks 5. Or something? I think you can see where I'm going with this. Activation: 1: The sphere's mood shifts and it decides to hinder Icarion instead, granting the inverse of the chosen benefit to his opponent. Rather than granting him a reroll for a failed to-hit, to-wound, etc, it will instead force him to reroll a successful roll of his opponent's choosing. Likewise, your opponent may instead choose to reroll a failed save or to-hit/to-wound roll against Icarion instead of being forced to reroll a successful one. 2: Nothing 3+: Receive the chosen benefit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Kitwulfen, That cone attack is waaaaaay overpowered. If it was a regular flamer template, ok, but what your talking about is pretty much a hell storm template with S6 ap2. Yikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Kitwulfen, That cone attack is waaaaaay overpowered. If it was a regular flamer template, ok, but what your talking about is pretty much a hell storm template with S6 ap2. Yikes. It's less than half of one, I think. They're 5 inches at the end and more like 20 inches long, IIRC. But yes, it could be toned down if it's too strong. I just didn't feel like a flamer template was enough, and a hellstorm was too big. Was trying for something middle of the road, that could hit multiple infantry models but would only hit a vehicle once. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Kitwulfen, That cone attack is waaaaaay overpowered. If it was a regular flamer template, ok, but what your talking about is pretty much a hell storm template with S6 ap2. Yikes. It's less than half of one, I think. They're 5 inches at the end and more like 20 inches long, IIRC. But yes, it could be toned down if it's too strong. I just didn't feel like a flamer template was enough, and a hellstorm was too big. Was trying for something middle of the road, that could hit multiple infantry models but would only hit a vehicle once. Maybe just a regular template with torrent? Or how about - Draw an 12" line with 1" width. Attach a flamer template to the end of this line. All models under the line and template suffer S6 AP 3 deflagrate, haywire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I thought of template + torrent, but then you get the kind of sideways-going flamer thing which doesn't seem very lightning-y. I thought a cone of lightning seemed more, uh... lightning-y. Maybe a simple half-inch beam or something is good. While I get the idea behind deflagrate, representing the lightning arcing to more people, I'm not sure it really fits. We have an example of what psychic lightning looks like in Smite, and it's pretty high in hits, good AP, and middle strength. I thought high strength might be suitable for a Primarch's brain-lightning instead of that of a piddling psyker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3724982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 or, to go with the chain lightning : draw a X" line Y" wide, the first model in the path of this line takes the full hit with every unit withing X" (think unit coherency) up to a maximum of say 6-8 + 1 vehicle taking either a weaker, on par or potentially stronger version of the initial hit. For added fun you could make a table with a few random effects and roll on a model to model basis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3725023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Well, let me know when this Primarch may go on sale, I like the model and may well decide to buy unless it's a tough month for me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3725912 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 His legion should have a unique weapon called Power Katana. initiative +1, strength -1, ap3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3725935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 His legion should have a unique weapon called Power Katana. initiative +1, strength -1, ap3 Power Daggers are -1 strength and give you rend. While I agree with Power Katana, I'd suggest the rules just be a rending power sword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3726156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I like the idea of a fast sword that is slightly weaker. But not a bad idea blackoption. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3726314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I'm inclined to go for a mid-point of having them be +1 initiative on the charge and normal any other time - rending as well - this shows the (honest) potency of a skilled swordsman with a katana, it also leaves the door open for other unique arms such as the no-dachi, Sai (although technically Curze has these) and naginata... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3726430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfkry Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 That is just pure unfiltered awesome... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3727193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malorn24 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Looks good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3727220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I like the idea of a fast sword that is slightly weaker. But not a bad idea blackoption. That would be a power rapier, epee, or fencing saber over a two handed sword like the katana. A katana was both a samurai's shield and sword. By design (and tradition) it took to hands to master.... But seeing as the Nostrama Chainglaive is the Two handed, +1 S, rending power weapon..... I think the Madrigal Power katana's should be AP 3, +1 in on charge, rending weapon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3727498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted June 24, 2014 Author Share Posted June 24, 2014 I want to thank everyone for the encouragement and advice about the WIP rules for Icarion. I have been play testing using the rules suggested by KitWulfen, pitting him against the Primarchs and have found a couple of things. Against Fulgrim: 5 Wins, 1 loss. Horus: 1 WIn, 5 loss Mortarion: 3 win, 3 loss Angron: 5 win, 1 loss Lorgar: 4 win, 2 loss Purterabo: 2 win, 4 loss I'm still really unsure what his Point cost should be, as it is I think the 525 I have him at is too high, but I'm just struggling to make him balanced. If I had to point out one thing that is causing his wins, it would be the strength that he is hitting at. +++++ Additionally, seeing as this thread has added conversations about Legion specific wargear in the Vibro-Katanas, I've changed the title to better reflect this discussion. For the time being, i have just been using the Katanas as power swords, but I do sort of like the idea of counting them as power sword and combat shield (and giving them the appropriate points cost) Finally, I've been playing with what the Legiones Astartes (Thunder Legion) rules should be. My first thought would be to give units with this special rule Brotherhood of Psykers, mastery lvl 1, but only give them access to the Primaris power of Divination. However, where I get stuck is adding a suitable negative attribute to balance this out, or whether I should make the Psyker power an upgrade for a set amount of points. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Legion rules, and Points cost for Icarion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3727510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Brother 92 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Where points costing - I'd say somewhere around 500-510 would be suitable, he's evidently (and rightfully so) mullered by Horus BUT is above or on par with every other Primarch you went against (I recommend you trial him against some of the slower but tougher Primarchs like Vulkan & Ferrus or faster like Corax & Curze), so a reasonably high points cost works well, more so with the other unit/areas buffs he has. I would love to see rules for the No-Dachi (maybe your specialist unit akin to Palatine Blades as No-Dachi are incredibly hard to master, even more so than Katana) at which point I would be thinking a unit with this stat-line: Blade-Master - WS/5 BS/- S/5 T/4 I/4 W/2 A/3 LD/10 SV/3+ FNP/5+ - unsure of points costing though. No-Dachi rules: +2 S on charge (yes this makes them S/7 but a No-Dachi outsizes a Katana by a lot, the warrior who used them were purely shock troops) but -1 I on all subsequent rounds of combat (this was equally true as although great swordsmen the sword itself was not designed to be used in close quarters fighting for long...) - I feel this would suit the fluff and give sensible +/- to the weaponry. I'd also entertain the idea of a small unit using the Naginata (chinese-based polearm used to great effect as both attacking & defending weaponry with sufficient reach to combat cavalry (a great need during the Boshin War) and short & powerful enough to combat swordsmen with Katana) - unsure about rules but something along the lines of the GK Halberds (as a Halberd was in effect the Western/European equivalent) so +1 I, perhaps +2 I on the charge (shows a devastatingly fast but not overtly powerful first attack) and then base I on further rounds (so on par with generic warriors as the length of the weapons would be less of an advantage) - perhaps +1 A VS MCs to show the added strength via unit coherence (3 long-bladed weapons can do more damage to one large target than 3 short-bladed in theory...). Hope that helps... Tom Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3727778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I would change the rules for the Primarch personally. I don't think he should cost more than Horus. Also, the rules that have been presented so far don't seem to be geared towards any Force multiplying. I have added and modified a few rules to hopefully address that. The arch-traitor's cost is part of the prestige of fielding the Emperor's favoured son. How about this: Icarion the Stormborn, the second son, the guiding star, the storm's eye - 480 points(ammended) -WS7 BS5 S6 T6 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 SV2+ Wargear: -Time-lost Aegis -Thunderchild -The Sphere Special Rules: -Primarch -Sire of the Thunder Guardians -Bulky -Artful Mind -Honed Combatant -Psyker level 3 Sire of the Thunder guardians - When Icarion is in play all friendly models from the same Thunder Guardians detachment have the adamantium will special rule. (there seems to be no psychic hoods in 30k after all) All friendly Thunder Guardians add +1 to their leadership to a maximum of 10 and models within 12" gain the stubborn special rule. Icarion can nominate a single infantry unit from the Thunder Guardians detachment - that unit gains the infiltrate and outflank special rules. Time Lost Aegis - a Beautiful and ornate suit of armour that confers a 2+ save and a 4+ invulnerable. The armour is psychically infused and allows the bearer to channel his psychic powers to augment the suit's protection. During the psychic phase Icarion may chose to discard two warp charges from the psychic pool in order to improve the invulnerable save to a 3++ Artful Mind - Icarion may re-roll a single failed psychic test per game, and can always re-roll the dice when attempting to deny the witch. He can roll on any psychic discipline other than malefic demonology but does not automatically gain the primaris power if he focuses on a single one. Honed Combatant - Icarion is an artful and disciplined warrior able to adjust his fighting style in order to best any foe. At the start of any assault phase in which Icarion is participating in a combat he may elect to use one of the following fighting styles that modify his profile: Nitojutsu: +2 Strength, -1 Initiative Kenjutsu: +2 Initiative, -1 Attacks Thunderchild - One of the many technological relics claimed by a young Icarion during his many expeditions in to the ancient and dangerous techno-vaults of Madrigal. Said to have once been wielded by the Thunder King of the old legends. The weapon responds to the powers of a honed psyker and can also be channelled into discharging arcs of beautiful and deadly electrical energy. Thunderchild has the following profile: -Thunderchild: Range --, Strength - User, AP2, Melee, Force, Sunder, Specialist Weapon -Arc Lightning: Str 6, Ap4, Deflagrate, Haywire, Template The Sphere: An esoteric relic of unknown origin. The Sphere's inner workings have confounded the greatest minds of the Mars Mechanicum. It is whispered that a merciful sentience resides within the sphere and it may chose to aid it's wielder. At the begging of your turn roll a d6. 1 - 2 Nothing Happens 3: Icarion can re -roll a single failed to hit or to wound result 4: icarion can re-roll a single armour, invul or cover save 5: Any units targeting Icarion and his unit in shooting or combat suffer -1 to their BS and WS 6: Icarion can chose any of the above mentioned benefits I think these rules keep him in line with the other primarchs, and also offer an additional tactical side to playing him... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292763-the-ii-legion-theorycrafting-units-traits-and-rite-of-war/#findComment-3728208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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