Conjurations not for all

[Hiskrtapps]

1. Allies Matrix is valid for all models of an army

2. Deep Strike is a kind of deployment

3. You cannot deploy within 12'' from a "come the apocalypse" allied model

4. all conjuration ranges are from 6'' to 12''

5. conjured units arrives deep striking

6. eldar and imperium, are "come the apocalypse" with daemons

 

SO they cannot conjure units using malefic daemonology

[Commander_Moustache]

I dont think this is right. If it is right, I think this is not RAI but it does make an interesting point if this is how it is faq to be.

[Gentlemanloser]

/salute

 

*Very* good catch.

 

There is a little amendment though.

 

If the Summoned unit mishaps, and is placed back into ongoing Reserves, it can DS anywhere on the board later, when eligible to redeploy.  So the Imperium/Eldar Could use a summoned unit that way.

 

There is an additional problem though.

 

What happens if the summoned unit mishaps, and the opponent gets to place them, and your opponent places then within 12"?  It's not impassible terrain, so it's an allowed choice.

 

Yet it's invalid due to the ally rules.

 

Another oversight by GW...

[Raeven]

The conjuration rules give special exceptions to allied units restrictions.  

[Seahawk]

Conjuration doesn't use the allies rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

Where does it state that, its not on page 26/27 under Conjuration? :/

[Dam13n]

The 12" limitation is when the army deploys for battle, which is described on page 132.

 

Arriving from reserves =/= deploying for battle.

 

Conjuration (as referenced by Gent above) states that the unit arrives via deep strike.  At no point is the word "deploy" used.

[Raeven]

Where does it state that, its not on page 26/27 under Conjuration? :/

What is on 26/27 is the rule stating that the conjured unit is under your control and it arrives by deep strike within the range limit of the power.  That's all the exception needed to allow Daemons to Deep Strike within 12" of all Come the Apoc detachments.

 

I thought someone found where the book stated that units that are conjured are considered part of the faction that conjures them?

[Gentlemanloser]

That's all the exception needed to allow Daemons to Deep Strike within 12" of all Come the Apoc detachments.

The Psychic Rules are basic, the Ally restriction Advanced.

The Advanced 12" rule would stay in effect. There's nothing on page 26/27 to change this.

Arriving from reserves =/= deploying for battle.

Yes it does.

Summoned units aren't arriving form *ongoing reserves*. They are deploying for battle via Deep Strike.

I thought someone found where the book stated that units that are conjured are considered part of the faction that conjures them?

I might have missed it, but I can't find that anywhere.

Edit;

Damien, regarding the deployment;

and is treated as arriving form reserves for all rules purposes

cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle

when arriving from reserves, pick one of your units and deploy it

There is no other specific mention of 'deployment for battle', but arrival form reserves is also 'deployment'.

[Raeven]

 

That's all the exception needed to allow Daemons to Deep Strike within 12" of all Come the Apoc detachments.

 

The Psychic Rules are basic, the Ally restriction Advanced.

 

The Advanced 12" rule would stay in effect.  There's nothing on page 26/27 to change this.

 

 Basic vs. Advanced is a legacy of 6th edition.  Unless I am mistaken, they took that out in 7th.  Do you have a page reference?

 

Edit

 

Nevermind.  I found it.  Psychic rules are advanced rules, not basic rules. 

[Seahawk]

No, nobody actually found that summoned units are part of a detachment, as it's never stated that they are.

[Ozshock]

has anyone checked FAQ's? i thought i saw it in one of them

 

edit: anyway i dont think it will be an issue...they all perils on any double if they try, and most of them require 3/5/7 dice...making that perils almost automatic

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Basic vs. Advanced is a legacy of 6th edition. Unless I am mistaken, they took that out in 7th. Do you have a page reference?

 

Edit

 

Nevermind. I found it. Psychic rules are advanced rules, not basic rules.

 

Nah, Sadly Basic < Advanced is still here.

 

The Psychic Phase rules?  They're Basic.  Coming just after Movement and Before Shooting.

 

The Powers themsevels are Advanced.
 

[Raeven]

Try again GL.  Psychic powers are not basic rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Phase?  Pages 24 to whatever?

 

They're not 'basic'?  What range is given for the Basic rules then?  There's not much before (only General Principles and Movement...) the Psychic Phase rules.

 

I'm almost sure the Movement, Shooting and Assault phase rules are 'Basic'.  Of which the Psychic Phase is in the middle of.

 

The Powers themsevels, I said they were advanced.  But not the rules of the Phase itself.

[Kristoff]

Still, the spell is more advanced and specific than the general Psychic rules or Allied Rules.

 

Now if it only came with a specific exception...

 

Do the CtA rules say deploy/deploys or deployment? The difference is significant.

[Gentlemanloser]

Just checked Page 13.  The Psychic Phase rules are Basic rules.

 

It's these Basic rules that list the rules for Conjurations.

 

Allies are Advanced rules.

 

And the CtA restriction is;

 

 

 

but cannot deploy within 12"

[Seahawk]

You don't use Allies rules with summoned units, so it doesn't matter.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why not?  Maelfic states it summons Daemons from Codex: Daemons.

 

Obviously you would use the Ally relationship matrix to work out how they interact with your army?

 

The Conjuration rules even sate;

 

 

 

call new allies to the fray

 

Why would they not count as allies?

[Raeven]

Gl, reread the basic vs advanced passage. Movement, shooting, close combat and morale. BvA no longer refers to a range of pages at the beginning of the book but specific chapters. Psychic is not included.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's because it's C&Ped from 6th, which had no Psychic Phase.

Basic rules;

apply to all the models in the game

Which the Psychic Phase rules do (as every model can Deny).

Advanced rules;

apply to specific types of models

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry

The Psychic Phase is not listed in any units Army List Entry...

Edit:

If you want to Insist the Psychic Phse rules are Advanced, as they only apply to Pyskers with a PML (they don't), then I'll assert that the Shooting Rules by the same logic are Advanced, as they don't apply to units without shooting weapons, or those with a BS0.

Which is a contradiction, as the Shooting Phase is stated as being a Basic rule.

[Seahawk]

Why not? Maelfic states it summons Daemons from Codex: Daemons.

Obviously you would use the Ally relationship matrix to work out how they interact with your army?

Show me where it states this and I'll agree.

Quote

call new allies to the fray

Why would they not count as allies?

It's flavor text, nothing more.

As for the OP, he should have done a searchy, because this topic already came up before (and GML and Raeven were the two debaters there too ).

[Gentlemanloser]

Because they're a unit from Codex: Daemons.

You don't get to count them as Faction: Dark Angels just because Zeke summoned them.

They are Faction: Chaos Daemon units, because they are units from Codex: Chaos Daemons. And we're told they are units from Codex: Chaos Daemons.

Edit: OP is slightly different though. As it brings Summoning into the picture, rather than how allied detachments deploy. ;)

[Raeven]

That's because it's C&Ped from 6th, which had no Psychic Phase.

Basic rules;

apply to all the models in the game

Which the Psychic Phase rules do (as every model can Deny).

Advanced rules;

apply to specific types of models

The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry

The Psychic Phase is not listed in any units Army List Entry...

Edit:

If you want to Insist the Psychic Phse rules are Advanced, as they only apply to Pyskers with a PML (they don't), then I'll assert that the Shooting Rules by the same logic are Advanced, as they don't apply to units without shooting weapons, or those with a BS0.

Which is a contradiction, as the Shooting Phase is stated as being a Basic rule.

No, it is not a copy and paste. They specifically left out the page reference from the previous book and made no mention of the psychic phase. RAW, the psychic phase is not basic rules.

You may not like it, but that is what the book says.

[Raeven]

As for the OP, he should have done a searchy, because this topic already came up before (and GML and Raeven were the two debaters there too ).

Seems to be the common theme these days. :)