Tactical - Imperial Armour 13: The lost & the damned

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Hi everyone.

 

A few month ago, we saw the release of - Imperial Armour 13: The Lost & the Damned, release by Forge World.  Which give the Chaos hobbiest more units to add to there armies & army list with the Renegades.

 

This topic is here, to allow memeber to discuss tactic for the units & list with in this book.  Over the past few days I've been thinking of adding a unit of Rapier Weapons Battery arm with Laser Destroyer to tie in with my Iron Warriors force, after reading a few comment here & there on this fourm.  Just right now, from what I've seen.  They seem really good for the point cost & give my army a little extra needed fire power with those Laser Destroyer, with the being twin linked will help me out a lot with my dice rolling <_<

 

So how have you found Armour 13 & how do you use those units or list in your own Chaos collection?

IP

 

 

[nuclearfeet]

No replies yet? Ok, I'll bite.

 

I've been using this army list for a while now, and it's different from the IG codex more than one would think. I've had a lot of success with Bloody Handed Reaver on my warlord, massed-artillery, and horde platoons of infantry. When upgraded to the full 20-man squad size, infantry squads can get a total of 2 heavy weapons and 4 special weapons(even more if you take Master of the Horde :D )

 

MSU simply doesn't work with this army, unless your're taking Desciples for the BS4 lascannon. And even then, the squad should be maxed out just to be on the safe side. With the random leadership and the quality of our troops, the more staying power they have, the better.

[Excessus]

I'm aiming to get a set of rapiers, they are just absolutely beast!  Hades AC or the cyclowhatever conversion beamer are nasty! I already have a sicarian that I haven't been able to try out yet, but it's also a beast!

[Zeratil]

  I've been using a fair few units from IA13 in quite a few games now so I thought I'd give my impressions of those I've used. For reference we don't tend to run the sort of list you see at a tournament, we just don't find those sorts of WAAC list that fun to play between friends. To each his own of course :)

 

Relic Predator:

 

  Mine is currently using the plasma executioner and no sponsons. I think this is one of the best loadouts for the tank, it's cheap but still a big threat to MEQs/TEQs. Mine has served me pretty well so far, although it's usually dead by the 3rd or 4th turn (one of the reasons I keep it cheap). The lack of gets hot really saves it for me, it's very useful to have it plugging away without having to worry about glancing itself to death, and only having one weapon means I can move it every turn (usually away from deep striking warp spiders, screw those guys) without sacrifincing firepower meaning that it can move round LOS terrain to get shots on tasty 2+/3+ armour save dudes I wish to vaporise. Downside is that it's a predator chassis, it's just not that hard to kill.

 

Sicaran:

 

  Really nice tank, personally I use mine with lascannon sponsons as a tank hunter, don't really need the anti-infantry firepower of the HB version. It does mean that the heavy bolter is wasted quite a lot, but this has been made up for quickly by just how killy this thing is. In the first turns I usually aim it at transports to give my other units infantry to shoot at and then I tend to move it up the field to get side armour shots on enemy tanks/walkers etc. It's always done me proud so far, but has become a real fire magnet and is often one of the first things targets, having AV12 on the sides and rear has saved it a couple of times, but it someone wants it dead enough it will still die. Really good tank though, I've not put armoured ceramite on it yet, but I think I will start doing so, as the last two games its been killed by deep striking melta.

 

Fire Raptor

 

 Best unit in the book, bar none as far as I am concerned, mine has never failed to make an absolute mess of things and has only been destroyed a couple of times with its 4HP, AV12 and Jink. Mine is usually run with reaper batteries and balefire missiles and makes a killer anti infantry/light armour platform. Easy to use, and the side armaments means that while you have to think ahead when moving (to give you good targets for the side guns in subsequent turns) it stays very useful in zooming mode as you can almost always position it to shoot something useful.

 

Ferrus Infernus dreadnought

 

  This has only seen two games so far, as the city destroyer variant. Honestly it hasn't performed well for how much it costs, it's too short ranged and even with AV13 and easy cover it dies too easily before it can get in close and be effective. I am going to try running it in a dreadclaw and see how well it does because I want it to see the table, but I wouldn't recommend this as there's a 1/6 chance of it being eaten. Overall far too expensive for what it does, although instantly vapourising 1/2 an assault squad was fun, that was more due to my opponents error than my success.

 

Dreadclaw

 

  Only used it in one game, but it killed an entire Ranger squad when it came down (I was lucky) and then flat outed to get it's cargo of possessed and accompanying warpsmith where they needed to be before getting blown out of the air. It's cargo jumped out and proceeded to assault and shoot their way across the back lines of my opponents. So pretty much it did it's job. I was unlucky to lose it when I did, as I was hoping to use the melta sweep for a turn at least. I think it's a good buy even if you only use one. Although I would say putting something like mutilators in it would be a better choice. Warpsmith actually seemed quite good in it, got him close to vehicles to curse them, melta them and charge anything nearby with his many axe attacks.

 

Giant Chaos Spawn

 

  Super cheap, but not good, it's far too slow. Mine has seen combat once (where it killed an entire BA assault squad, followed by a sister squad, followed by an Exorcist before finally being killed. Surprisingly after hearing this no one has let it live, and it's either cowered out of sight as a counter assault unit or simply run forward to sacrificially throw it's bulk in front of the enemy guns, it's just to weak to the numerous S7 AP4 guns that I see.

 

Rapiers!

 

  I have two in the laser destroyer config, and one unassembled conversion beamer one. The laser destroyers have done very well for me, ranged AP1 ordnance is very useful for my Thousand Sons, which otherwise tend to lack AP1 firepower to explode tanks. Two seems a good number to me, not too expensive and you've got 4 wounds to lose before they start to lose effectiveness. Very good unit I've found, although the range is a little on the short side.

[Kythnos]

 Dreadclaw

 

  Only used it in one game, but it killed an entire Ranger squad when it came down (I was lucky) and then flat outed to get it's cargo of possessed and accompanying warpsmith where they needed to be before getting blown out of the air. It's cargo jumped out and proceeded to assault and shoot their way across the back lines of my opponents. So pretty much it did it's job. I was unlucky to lose it when I did, as I was hoping to use the melta sweep for a turn at least. I think it's a good buy even if you only use one. Although I would say putting something like mutilators in it would be a better choice. Warpsmith actually seemed quite good in it, got him close to vehicles to curse them, melta them and charge anything nearby with his many axe attacks.

 

I'm currently building a Dreadclaw for my own warband (pictures in my WIP-thread) and you've given me some ideas on how to use it. Though I'm wondering wether Mutilators really are a good choice for a unit to be transported in the Dreadclaw as they're quite expensive and have a small unit size. They'll lose effectiveness (not a word I'd use regularly for Mutilators anyway ^^") quite fast once one of them gets eaten by the Dreadclaw, don't you think?

[Excessus]

If you have a warpsmith/abby/malefic sorc. in there with them you can choose if it eats one or not.

[Sheesh Mode]

Imperial Armor 13 has provided me a host of new ideas for hobbying and wargaming. The local game store is currently running a Combat Patrol campaign and due to the 'competitive' nature of the environment I chose to field a list that would counter the meta. Enter the Rapier Hade's Autocannon with it's s8 ap4 36" heavy 4 pinning, this is an excellent package especially in the small four by four maps of combat patrol. Not a single thing that can potentially be fielded in this game type will be immune to a squadron of these things, and the map is small enough that I do not need to worry about the range.  

 

Fielding two squads of these and a squad of noise marines has made me a contender in the current matchups, even against our resident Eldar player. 

[Carrack]

I was looking over my copy when I came across a question. Many of the walkers can buy an upgrade called "dedication to Slannesh", which gives them offensive and defensive grenades. As a walker, they get to fire all of their weapons, does this mean they can throw a grenade as well?

[Nehekhare]

I have totally forgone Chaos Space Marines in favor of a pure Renegade & Heretics list. There is nothing left in C:CSMeh that's worth taking for my Iron Warriors.  

[Lord Asvaldir]

I have yet to make full use of the R&H goodies, but also want to switch over to a more R&H list which I think can just be better than CSM. Aiming for first primary CSM with R&H allies, then switching over to primary R&H once I have enough models with a few CSM allies. 

 

Only unit I've tried is the hellblade, which I've been rather happy with. Very solid anti air unit and even though it's made of paper it usually gets the job done before it goes down. Really so much I haven't used though I want to see be used, even some of the more sub par options like the decimator. 

[Castellan Cato]

I have totally forgone Chaos Space Marines in favor of a pure Renegade & Heretics list. There is nothing left in C:CSMeh that's worth taking for my Iron Warriors.  

 

 

Do it.  Check out the new Siege of Vraks too.  Apparently there's a new Arch-Demagogue devotion that lets you artillery into close combat and take quad mortars as non-compulsory troops.

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

Just to ask - Do any of our memeber have some cool conversion of the Relic Predator?  This is somthing I'm possible looking to add to my own army soon.
Also I should have my Rapiers unit ready soon & try them out in a few games :D

 

Going to try & pick up Armour 13 from the Warhammer World open day in a few month time along with a whole lot of cool Forge World kits.

[Nehekhare]

 

 Check out the new Siege of Vraks too.  Apparently there's a new Arch-Demagogue devotion that lets you artillery into close combat and take quad mortars as non-compulsory troops.

 

that sounds damn interesting...do you have any precise intel about that?

[Castellan Cato]

 

 

 Check out the new Siege of Vraks too.  Apparently there's a new Arch-Demagogue devotion that lets you artillery into close combat and take quad mortars as non-compulsory troops.

 

that sounds damn interesting...do you have any precise intel about that?

 

 

 

Lagrath has a really good post with info here  http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/303306-siege-of-vraks-second-edition/?p=3955940

[Rain]

I really want a Sicaran just to kill Eldar. I hate Eldar. So. Very. Much. Jink this you reroll cheesing little s.

[Sception]

I've proxied the dreadclaw a couple times, enough to decide I actually wanted one.

 

The most important first step to using a dreadclaw is not to think of it as a fancy drop pod. This is, in many ways, the hardest step. After all, it looks like a fancy drop pod. It has to deep strike like a drop pod, it exists primarily to deliver troops, etc etc etc. By all appearances, it's a fancy drop pod, the cadilac of drop pods, but that is a lie. On a fundamental level, the drop pod delivers units with high reliability to tight positions for close range shooting, does so at little to no cost in points or force org slots. It has exactly the tools it needs to do this - inertial guidance, drop pod assault - and nothing else, which keeps them cheap enough to use (or spam).

 

The dreadclaw is a terrible drop pod. Without inertial guidance, it can't reliably deploy close to the enemy, and it has a bunch of extra abilities (movement after arrival, assault ramp, frag launchers, melta blast, possession, etc), none of which help it do the drop pod's job, making its points cost absolutely ludicrous. On top of that, it isn't a dedicated transport for most units in our book, instead eating valuable fast slots. In transitioning from pod to claw, the whole thing seems to have gone pear shaped. Terrible. Garbage.

 

But maybe it was a pear to begin with? Maybe we've been comparing apples to pears all along? I'm not at all the first person to say this, but the dreadclaw isn't garbage, because it isn't the high class drop pod it looks like. What it is, is a ghetto stormraven, a storm raven with all the guns sawed off, no dread hook, and slightly smaller capacity, for half the points cost. So you don't try to use it like a drop pod, you try to use it like a storm raven that is only trying to deliver an assault unit. Now, arguably, the storm raven is a better gunship than a delivery option, which leaves the dreadclaw as not exactly amazing, but I never said the claw was amazing, just that it wasn't garbage.

 

So, when looking at transport ability, what are the differences between the claw and the raven?

 

The claw...

- carries less (no dread, -2 capacity

- deep strikes (risk of mishap/scatter)

- possessed (might lose a random model)

+ 1/2 your claws rounded up arrive turn 1

+ costs less

+ deep strike (can potentially access areas the raven would take an extra turn to reach)

+ possessed (5/6 shrugs off shaken/stun)

+ half the price

+ dedicated transport for a couple units (sadly not all, and not the ones that most want it)

 

Well, now. Setting aside for the moment whether the storm raven is good as a transport in and of itself, the claw doesn't look to be a terrible transport in comparison to it.

 

......

 

So, having established that the dreadclaw is far better off pretending to be a lousy storm raven than a fancy drop pod, how does that affect its use? Well, first, we don't spam them. In fact, since we're just concerned with delivery and not shooting, and only one claw arrives T1 (unless we take 3, which incus an excessive cost), we probably don't even take 2. Second, it deep strikes, which potentially shows up further forward than the storm raven when it appears, but mostly means you need an open area and scatter, so your position after movement isn't as ideal. However, since your guns fell off during the transition from bird to claw, you can use your flat out move to get back into an ideal position.

 

Now, the claw has to come in hovering, but the raven has to as well if it wants to deliver its unit into assault on the next turn. Both have 3hp and 12 armour to try and keep them up for that turn, but the dreadclaw is also smaller, and lower (in hover mode it's hopping around on it's tines) to make line of sight easier to block, plus it forgot all its guns, so it doesn't care about jinking, and it's possessed, so it can shrug off those stunned results. So it's not super fragile.

 

Keep in mind, it's no land raider, it isn't going to eat a whole opponent's shooting phase, but so long as you've got a fair bit of target saturation going, it's gonna force some real tough decisions on the opponent. Especially since, if they do down the claw, they still have to wipe out the unit that falls out to prevent the claw from having retroactively succeeded at its job anyway. And fortunately for us, we've got a lot of points efficient fast units that can be presenting a similar threat in a similar time frame. Rapid fire squads in rhinos, bikes, spawn, and maulers are all presenting similarly paced threats, in that they all land fairly reliably on turn two, assuming the opponent didn't move towards you on turn one. Unfortunately, a few of the more efficient of those units (bikes and spawn in particular) compete with claws for slots, so if slots are an issue (unbound and multidetachments not available for instance) then you're stuck with basic CSMs or chosen for the package, and sadly while those units aren't aweful, they aren't amazing either.

 

So, what's our use, then? We take one, put a nasty (well, nastyish, again we're probably talking CSMs or chosen, probably not even with an IC since those would rather be on bikes for the T boost) melee unit in it, drop it first turn in the open, flat out to a good position near a juicy backfield target. Next turn, you move, drop the unit, and it assaults. After that, if the claw is still alive, fly high, and just zoom around until it's time to push your way onto an objective at the end of the game. In the same army, we take (at least) two maulerfiends, 2 to 3 units of bikes / spawn, some similarly fast IC (bike/jugger lord or sorc, or maybe a nurgle mace prince), MAYBE a couple rapid fire units in rhinos (if we're feeling guilty about how few CSMs are in our CSM army), and whatever backfield campers / ranged support we feel is appropriate and can still fit. Since the rest of that list apart from the claw unit is basically the default CSM army these days, it's actually not too hard to work with, although obviously points costs are an issue.

 

And what do we put in it? Well, ideally, I'd say berzerkers. They're not a super terrible unit once you have an actual delivery vector, especially one that gives them such a good chance of getting a charge. Unfortunately, they can't take one as a dedicated transport, so if slots are an issue it's chaos marines (with meltas in the squad and some sort of power something on the champ, maybe MoS or MoK, maybe w/ icon if marked), or chosen (same, only maybe also with an extra couple meltas or power something or others in the squad). Chosen are painfully points inefficient still, but do improve somewhat with dread claw use, especially melee configurations. Basically, I don't recommend chosen for your claws, but I do recommend claws for your melee chosen. The situation is similar for possessed, they're a bad unit regardless, so if you're looking for a good unit to put in a claw look elsewhere, but if you're dead set on fielding possessed for thematic or aesthetic reasons regardles, delivering them via a claw is probably the best way to do it.

 

Theoretically, the claw can also be used to deliver a massive melee IC like Abby or Typhus, but the colossal points increase makes the claw too big of a target, ime. It and its unit won't stand up to the full attention of the opponent, and if you put an abaddon or the like in there the opponent can afford to give it that attention. Sure, you might luck out on jink saves, but it doesn't seem like an ideal tactic to me for anything other than 'gotcha' games where you don't have to tell your opponent what you're fielding before the game, and that's generally not super fun, and doesn't work more than once anyway.

 

Khârn, on the other hand, presents a potential exception to my 'no characters' rule. He hits like a train, and doesn't cost too much. There are already threads about trying to cram Khârn and a unit of CSMs or chosen down the opponent's throat in a land raider, I have to wonder if the points saved by converting that raider to a claw might prove beneficial.

 

I haven't tried it myself, though, and in general I think the rule of keeping the contents of the claw cheap in order to present the opponent more T2 threats should be the default.

 

-------------

 

So, all that said, is the claw good? Well, I don't know. It's a heck of a lot better than it was, but it's still far from great. It may compare favorably to the storm raven as a pure assault transport, but, I mean, come on, who fields a storm raven for that? And while comparing it to a drop pod may be comparing apples to pears, the drop pod is a really delicious, super high quality apple that the vendor is practically giving away, while the dread claw is at best a sort of middling quality pear, with a couple bruises, and a price tag that's frankly a bit much.

 

But then again, pears are out of season, so what did you expect? If you want a pear, it's kinda the only pear around, so there's not a lot of room to complain. It's hard to find decent assault delivery in the CSM book at all, so the so-so dreadclaw can still claim its space.

 

If you've been running the typical, CSMless CSM assault rush, and you really wanted to throw some more power armored bodies into your list because, damn it, it isn't codex 'spawn and maulerfiends', then a squad of something in a dread claw can help you scratch that itch without having too adverse an impact on your overal strategy or success rate. So yeah, that may be a mixed recommendation, but it's a recommendation none the less. Particularly if you're looking for a more interesting way of fielding chosen than 'more expensive version of havoc squad with plasma guns'. Like, maybe you play Black Legion or Crimson Slaughter. Or maybe you just have those nice starter box models, and would really like to field them in a unit without having to hack off all those melee arms.

 

My handful of proxied games were enough to convince me that when I'm ready to shift focus from my Undead Legion back to the CSMs (likely around the time 9e is released and WHFB is consigned to the unforgiving pages of history), I'll definitely be saving up to add one to my own collection, and it will likely end up being the primary delivery vector of those fancy converted chosen I was working on when Nagash stole my will to 40k.

[Slaanbull]

Fantastic write-up Malisteen, you've convinced me to field a claw.

I've been on the fence for a while, wanting to field a semi-expensive chosen squad. The claw will probably contain mutilators once in a while, when I'm not deepstriking them one by one.

[Shuggnuggath]

I play a lot of Maelstrom games. so far my Dreadclaw has been really useful. 

 

I run it as a dedicated transport for a csm squad of 9 with a meltagun, combimelta and a warp smith (extra melta and stops folks getting eaten). It drops in on turn 1 and I hover it up near to my opponents high value tank, but behind some cover. During his first shooting phase I jink like mad (night fighting helps here). Turn 2 I get out and vape a tank, charging in to finish it if necessary, while the dread claw hovers off to secure whatever far off objectives the cards throw up for the rest of the game. Meanwhile the squad from inside is free to rampage around my opponents backfield campers. It can even torch some stuff with its firesweep and still jink like crazy. 

 

One of the great things about it is that as a DT for a CSM squad it is an ObSec unit that you don't mind sending off to far off objectives. I find its usually good for a few maelstrom points until you opponent get so annoyed with it that they devote a disproportionate amount of firepower to get rid of it even though its not doing any physical damage to their army.

[Sception]

Being objective secured on troops helped it in a couple of my tedt games as well. I play Black Legion out of the supplement so my chosen are troops. It's something I really should have mentioned more in the write up, since the ability to swoop in at high speeds to steal objectives from non-obsec units is really nice, especially in maelstrom.

 

I also forgot entirely that warpsmiths can prevent the thing from eating models. With that in mind, I would definitely put the smith with Khârn in the 'maybe' category. The smith's large number of ap2 attacks, combined with his short range shooting, should compliment whatever unit you're fielding quite well. Unfortunitely, cost is still an issue, so unless you're putting individually expensive models like mutilators in there, I think you're probably better off saving the points so so can present more threats outside of the claw for target saturation.

 

Speaking of muts, i forget, are they bulky, or very bulky? Can you fit three, or three and a smith? If so, that might work out, provided force org slots aren't an issue, but in general I'd think you'd be better off with something else in the claw, and the muts deep striking individually, if fielding them at all.

 

EDIT: bulky, yes, I remember now. Some muts and a smith might be worth taking, although when we eventually get that new oblit/mut dual kit that's just gotta be sitting around somewhere waiting for production I'm sure those muts will go up to 'very bulky', and it will no longer be an especially tempting option to transport them by claw.

[Excessus]

Not only warpsmiths can stop them from eating, but if you are playing CS supp, you can have a malefic sorcerer with prophet of the voices and some possessed, and pop out, summon stuff and assault something. There is also 33% chance to get shrouded for the DC because of the CS possessed rule.

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

I've played a few games with a Greater Brass Scorpion (painted up as if captured by a Slaaneshi warband) and it's been awesome.  I like fast, maneuverable rush lists and boy, does the GBS deliver - 12" move, 3D6 charge, D3+2 Stomps and lots of anti-MEQ firepower.  It's incredibly expensive, and the stern armor is weak, but for going up against Baneblades or Knights, this has been a nice (though tricky to use) option for me.

[Lagrath]

You should run the Brass Scorp alongside another vehicle with the Khorne legacy to give +1 to the vehicle's invul save.

[UlsanGamer]

Just noticed the dreadclaw also has frag launchers which should help possessed, mutilators or terminators charging things in cover.

[hopkins]

what loadouts are you all using for contemptors?

[Sception]

Just noticed the dreadclaw also has frag launchers which should help possessed, mutilators or terminators charging things in cover.

It does. Sadly, it is not a dedicated transport for those units, and points & number of attacks are an issue, so there are probably better things to put in the claw even if they don't benegit from the launchers. I still think msu deep strike is the best way to run terms & muts, if you're running them at all. Possessed, though, if you want to field them, do appreciate what the claw has to offer. Like i said before, possessed aren't great for claws, but claws are great for possessed.