What save is better: re-roll 4+ or 3+

[MoonPhoenix]

Hi all.

 

Have a question: what save is better?

 

Situation: someone shoot to my bikes (weapons have ap higher then 4).

 

I declare Jink. Now I get two saves: re-roll 4+ cover save and 3+ armor save.

 

Rulebook state that i should use the best available save. But how i should compare this two saves - with or without re-roll?

[DA_WarM]

If you jink, 4+ reroll is better (25% failure vs 33% failure).   If you don't then 3+.  Depends on the situation I guess.

[Brother Dallo]

Yeah, DA_WarM has it right.

 

I would assume it's the percentage chance of failing. You have a 50% chance of failing a 4+ save. If you reroll it, you have a further 50% chance of failing. In total, you have a 25% chance of failing, thus you have a 75% chance of passing. You have a 67% chance of passing a 3+ save (ie a 33% chance of failing), so you should use the rerollable 4+ methinks.

 

Dallo

[Rodiger]

The rule says for clarity: "[the model] has the advantage of always using the best available save" Best is a vague word, as it does not say 'lowest save', I think, you can choose the one that is best for you in your current situation. I would have no problem playing with someone who wanted to choose which one to use.   

[Chaplain Lucifer]

This question came up here before. Jink is a special power and it has to be used before any rolls to hit are made.

So basically if the rulebook says you have to use the best available save makes no big difference because you already elected you would use (or not) Jink.

So basically if you declare you are going to jink, then it is already established you are not using your armour save and if you haven't declared jink before the enemy rolls to hit then you have to use your armour or other cover save available.

But yes, if you are faced with the choice of using re-rollable Jink after being activated or 3+ save, the re-rollable jink is better.

[MoonPhoenix]

Thank all for answers. They match for my point point of view.

 

But couple of men from our forum have different point of view. Their arguments are follow:

 

 

There are three types of saves: cover, armor and invul. We don't have such saves as "re-roll save". So when we check what saves is better then we should check only value of saves itself without any special rules (like re-roll, etc.)

It means that if we check what save should we use (re-roll 4+ or 3+) we should compare this saves without re-roll special rule (in such case 3+ is better then 4+ of course). So we should use 3+ armor save, although actually it is worse due re-roll 4+.

[CarbonBased]

 

Thank all for answers. They match for my point point of view.

 

But couple of men from our forum have different point of view. Their arguments are follow:

 

 

There are three types of saves: cover, armor and invul. We don't have such saves as "re-roll save". So when we check what saves is better then we should check only value of saves itself without any special rules (like re-roll, etc.)

It means that if we check what save should we use (re-roll 4+ or 3+) we should compare this saves without re-roll special rule (in such case 3+ is better then 4+ of course). So we should use 3+ armor save, although actually it is worse due re-roll 4+.

 

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. The rulebook says "the best save available". The best save available is the one that has the highest chance of preventing a wound. It has nothing to do with the number. Nowhere in the book does it specify that the best save is the one with the lowest number.

 

Otherwise, we'd have to use armor saves against wounds that bypass armor due to AP. Terminators would literally never use Invul saves.

[SnakeChisler]

best save means you take your 3+ armor

 

Because

 

Its better than a 4+

 

4+ * 2 is better statistically but that's coz you have a re-roll

 

 

"BUT WAIT" - the only reference I can find to taking your best save in 7th is "An invulnerable save can be made, if it is the best save available"

 

So as far as I can see the wording for you must take your best save doesn't exist - wonder if this is a collective memory hang over from 6th! certainly can't find the wording in 7th?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

page 38, Models with more than one save, Though Upon re-reading it, I see that they infer that cover, armour and inv are 3 types of saves and you use what is the best one according to situation.

I wouldn't sweat too much and get hung on "best save" literal definition and just use "best save" as a choice to be made if there are several types available.

[CarbonBased]

best save means you take your 3+ armor

 

Because

 

Its better than a 4+

 

4+ * 2 is better statistically but that's coz you have a re-roll

 

If you have a 3+ armor and 4+ cover rerollable, 3+ is not your best save, it is your lowest save. 4+ rerollable is your best save, not your lowest numerical save number.

My best save is the one that is least likely to result in me taking a wound. Anyone who argues that I have to take a statistically worse save, when a better one is available, is precisely the type of person I won't play.

It's quite simple, of the saves, which would you like to use? The 3+ armor, or the 4+ rerollable? The one you want to use is the best save, because IT'S THE BEST SAVE!

[DA_WarM]

If you declare you are jinking then you have to use your jink cover save.  Your 3+ is no longer relevant because you have declared that you'll be jinking...

 

If you have a 3+ armor and 4+ cover rerollable, 3+ is not your best save, it is your lowest save. 4+ rerollable is your best save, not your lowest numerical save number.

 

 

My best save is the one that is least likely to result in me taking a wound. Anyone who argues that I have to take a statistically worse save, when a better one is available, is precisely the type of person I won't play.

It's quite simple, of the saves, which would you like to use? The 3+ armor, or the 4+ rerollable? The one you want to use is the best save, because IT'S THE BEST SAVE!

 

 

Agreed.  4+ rerollable jink is a better save than 3+.

[SnakeChisler]

Given that on looking through the BRB there's nothing actually forcing you to take one save over another it doesn't really matter

 

Wording is "a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save" and as the controlling player its up to you which one to take.

 

There's no where it says Must in any of the text

[Cactus]

If you declare you are jinking then you have to use your jink cover save.

Why? That's not what the Jink rule says.

[Elios Harg]

This question came up here before. Jink is a special power and it has to be used before any rolls to hit are made.

So basically if the rulebook says you have to use the best available save makes no big difference because you already elected you would use (or not) Jink.

So basically if you declare you are going to jink, then it is already established you are not using your armour save and if you haven't declared jink before the enemy rolls to hit then you have to use your armour or other cover save available.

But yes, if you are faced with the choice of using re-rollable Jink after being activated or 3+ save, the re-rollable jink is better.

If it worked as you say then a techmarine on a bike would always be forced to use his 4+ cover save over his 2+ armor save when jinking and that is most definitely not the case. Jinking gives you a cover save, it does not require you to use it.

 

 

Thank all for answers. They match for my point point of view.

 

But couple of men from our forum have different point of view. Their arguments are follow:

 

 

There are three types of saves: cover, armor and invul. We don't have such saves as "re-roll save". So when we check what saves is better then we should check only value of saves itself without any special rules (like re-roll, etc.)

It means that if we check what save should we use (re-roll 4+ or 3+) we should compare this saves without re-roll special rule (in such case 3+ is better then 4+ of course). So we should use 3+ armor save, although actually it is worse due re-roll 4+.

 

By saying "we don't have such saves as a "re-roll save" they kind of prove your point. A jink save is just a cover save that is activating by using the jink special rule. Ravenwing are allowed to re-roll their failed jink cover saves, therefore that has to be factored in against other available saves to determine which is "best." Anyone trying to say otherwise is just trying to cheat you out of your better save. Otherwise, why would they argue the point?

 

 

 

Thank all for answers. They match for my point point of view.

 

But couple of men from our forum have different point of view. Their arguments are follow:

 

 

There are three types of saves: cover, armor and invul. We don't have such saves as "re-roll save". So when we check what saves is better then we should check only value of saves itself without any special rules (like re-roll, etc.)

It means that if we check what save should we use (re-roll 4+ or 3+) we should compare this saves without re-roll special rule (in such case 3+ is better then 4+ of course). So we should use 3+ armor save, although actually it is worse due re-roll 4+.

 

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. The rulebook says "the best save available". The best save available is the one that has the highest chance of preventing a wound. It has nothing to do with the number. Nowhere in the book does it specify that the best save is the one with the lowest number.

 

Otherwise, we'd have to use armor saves against wounds that bypass armor due to AP. Terminators would literally never use Invul saves.

 

Incorrect, it says "best available save" obviously if AP ignores your armor save then it is not available and you would not be forced to use it.

[CarbonBased]

 

Incorrect, it says "best available save" obviously if AP ignores your armor save then it is not available and you would not be forced to use it.

 

 

Good point. My rage at the argument made me temporarily stupid.

[Elios Harg]

That is completely understandable. Your point did inspire my thought about techmarines in the other point, however, so it was not a waste.

[thraxdown]

I play it as my best save is the one my opponent doesn't want me to take. In this case it would be the rerollable cover

[johnyocum]

If nothing else, talk with your opponent before deployment about what 'best save' means, and if you can't come to an agreement, just don't play.

 

If you're going to a tournament, get with the Tournament Organizer beforehand to get the interpretation that will be used for that tourney.

[Kewl Imp]

Speaking with some TOs in San Antonio, the way they will be playing it is best save by number not statistics. Personally I think I the best is save is with the reroll.

[Elios Harg]

I like thraxdown's definition.

[Tygwyn]

Best save means best, not lowest. What happens if, for example you are in a position where you have a PA IC shot at close range with AP2 and he has to choose between his conversion field (not looking at Dex so take it as a hypothetical) and a cover save - in this case both 4+, then the blind SR makes it better, whilst the dice roll is no better statistically.

[SnakeChisler]

Speaking with some TOs in San Antonio, the way they will be playing it is best save by number not statistics. Personally I think I the best is save is with the reroll.

 

Given the wording in the BRB not sure how a TO can justify making a ruling like that?

 

If you were doing it to deliberately to get models killed then your into "Spirit of the Game Territory"  but just taking a statistically better save due to a re-roll doesn't seem to me to be worth them ruling on and for that matter nerfing our new codex special rule which separates us from "White Scars"

[IanSturrock]

It's not just best save. It's supposed to be an advantage to the model: "it has the advantage of...". So at no point should an opponent (or even a TO) be trying to twist that rule to give you a disadvantage. And, the rule doesn't say "must". Generally 40K is a permissive ruleset -- you have various options and you pick between them, unless you "must" do one of them.

[CarbonBased]

 

Given the wording in the BRB not sure how a TO can justify making a ruling like that?

 

If you were doing it to deliberately to get models killed then your into "Spirit of the Game Territory"  but just taking a statistically better save due to a re-roll doesn't seem to me to be worth them ruling on and for that matter nerfing our new codex special rule which separates us from "White Scars"

 

 

Absolutely! And the "Spirit of the game" stuff is misleading. Your best save is the one least likely to cause a wound on your model. Not the one to give you the most desirable game result (ie. dying so I can get out of assault). It's not complicated unless someone tries to make it complicated.

[Elios Harg]

3+ and 4+*2 are so close that it would be rare for me to actually jink if I could take my 3+, but if I do jink, I'm rolling my jink for any model for which it is most beneficial to the model as that is what "best" means.

 

There are "sticky points" with conversion fields, lychguard shields (assuming they still reflect, I haven't played against necrons in a while) and other similar saves where I would be willing to concede that "best available save" means most likely to save again the wound and not most beneficial in more ambiguous terms. In fact the old Necrons 7th ed. FAQ stated that "you must always use the best save available, and so cannot choose to use the dispersion shield's invulnerable save in place of an armour save if the models armour save is better and available." This sets some precedent that "best save" means to defend against the wound, so conversion fields and the like are probably out of luck here. Unfortunately, it doesn't do much to solve the debate of what they consider to be "best."

 

Personally, I will always play it as best chance to save the wound until GW FAQs it otherwise. Anyone that truly wants to argue the point mid-game can prove to me how the 3+ has a better chance to save and I'll concede the point. At that point, if they still want to argue, I'll pack up. I no longer have energy to waste arguing instead of having fun when playing a game.