Why aren't the Primarch's weapons used in the 41st Mill?

[TheRealMcCagh]

I think the answer has more to do with the weapons importance rather than its practicality, I don't think generals today walk around with a predecessor's service revolver. At some point the weapon is more useful as an icon rather than an actual weapon.  And to use a Primarch's weapon might be misinterpreted as thinking you are on equal footing with them. 

[Stoic Raptor]

 

The overall length doesn't seem impossible to manage, especially when your handling the blade like this;

It would be longer, but you also wouldn't need to make long swings, just short ones and stabs.

 

 

Exactly.  I think a lot of criticism comes from people who only know one way to fight with a weapon - or not even that, they've just watched some movies.  If using a large weapon means cutting off your back foot, you're doing it wrong, wouldn't you say? ;)

[Sothalor]

Arguing about the practicality of a Marine using their Primarch's weapon is like wondering about a Catholic clergyman or monk using the Shroud of Turin for a blanket.

 

Could they physically do it? Sure. Are they likely to given their worldviews, beliefs, culture, etc.? Not fething likely.

[Volt]

Arguing about the practicality of a Marine using their Primarch's weapon is like wondering about a Catholic clergyman or monk using the Shroud of Turin for a blanket.

 

Could they physically do it? Sure. Are they likely to given their worldviews, beliefs, culture, etc.? Not fething likely.

Except Marines already employ one Primarch's weapons- Guilliman's fists.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Not all the Primarch's weapons are just sitting around. Shrike uses the Raven's Talons, which were allegedly built by Corax himself to replace the lightning talons destroyed during the Dropsite Massacre. 

 

 

Yea they kind of poke fun at that legend in the 30k books where any character can upgrade their lightning claws for Raven's Talons (which are exactly the same as Shrike's) as well as all their Dark Fury being equipped with them.

 

 

Arguing about the practicality of a Marine using their Primarch's weapon is like wondering about a Catholic clergyman or monk using the Shroud of Turin for a blanket.

 

Could they physically do it? Sure. Are they likely to given their worldviews, beliefs, culture, etc.? Not fething likely.

Except Marines already employ one Primarch's weapons- Guilliman's fists.

 

 

They're not his. I mean, he claimed them as a prize from a chaos space marine he killed and slapped some Us on them, but they weren't crafted for him or anything 

[Urriak Urruk]

All right, here's a list of all the Loyalist Primarch's weapons used by normal Astartes;

 

- The Lion Helm, carried by Azrael

- The Lion Sword, carried by Cypher

- Spear of Russ, gifted to Bjorn and used by other marines

- Blade Encarne, gifted to Belarius and used by other marines

- Spear of Telesto, used by Arkio (which made him think he was Sanguinius)

- Gauntlet of the Forge, used by Vulkan He'Stan

- Raven's Talons, used by Kayvaan Shrike

[Volt]

All right, here's a list of all the Loyalist Primarch's weapons used by normal Astartes;

 

- The Lion Helm, carried by Azrael

- The Lion Sword, carried by Cypher

- Spear of Russ, gifted to Bjorn and used by other marines

- Blade Encarne, gifted to Belarius and used by other marines

- Spear of Telesto, used by Arkio (which made him think he was Sanguinius)

- Gauntlet of the Forge, used by Vulkan He'Stan

- Raven's Talons, used by Kayvaan Shrike

The Lion Helm isn't Lion-o's helmet. Not only is it far smaller than a helm that could be worn by a Primarch (literally would not fit on his head), but it's not even the proper mark. The Lion Helm is MK VIII, which I don't think the Dark Angels even had access to in the Crusade/Heresy era considering it was a much later invention in the heresy. Cypher doesn't use the Lion's sword, he just carries it on his back after being given it by the Lion. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Volt

[Trevak Dal]

I think lore wise and in character, I would not want the super responsibility of having a chapter relic like that, not even TDA or Artificer armor. Just be a Bolter jock, maybe use one of the sniper/dmr varients, maybe a Combi melta because noob tubes win fights.

[Stoic Raptor]

 

The Lion Helm isn't Lion-o's helmet. Not only is it far smaller than a helm that could be worn by a Primarch (literally would not fit on his head), but it's not even the proper mark. The Lion Helm is MK VIII, which I don't think the Dark Angels even had access to in the Crusade/Heresy era considering it was a much later invention in the heresy. Cypher doesn't use the Lion's sword, he just carries it on his back after being given it by the Lion. 

 

 

Let us not for one second arrive at that assumption because of the way it's modeled on a (fairly old) miniature.  If we're discussing lore, then we go with the lore.  If you're discussing scale in minis, I'm sure there's a discussion somewhere else about how the lore has all Astartes suddenly growing in size by 10%. 

[Kingleir]

mass produced things in the imperium aren't usually just invented, they are usually sourced from the work of an artificer or an STC. It isn't much of a stretch to believe that mark VIII is a scaled down version of a primarchs armour. It was also made before the scale of the primarchs was fleshed out, and how do you base an entire series off of one model of a helmet?

[Volt]

 

 

The Lion Helm isn't Lion-o's helmet. Not only is it far smaller than a helm that could be worn by a Primarch (literally would not fit on his head), but it's not even the proper mark. The Lion Helm is MK VIII, which I don't think the Dark Angels even had access to in the Crusade/Heresy era considering it was a much later invention in the heresy. Cypher doesn't use the Lion's sword, he just carries it on his back after being given it by the Lion. 

 

 

Let us not for one second arrive at that assumption because of the way it's modeled on a (fairly old) miniature.  If we're discussing lore, then we go with the lore.  If you're discussing scale in minis, I'm sure there's a discussion somewhere else about how the lore has all Astartes suddenly growing in size by 10%. 

 

Azrael WEARS the helmet. It would be far too large for him on top of being the wrong mark. It's fairly obvious that the Lion Helm is as much the Lion's helmet as Saint Thor had 100 fingers and 100 toes.

[Urriak Urruk]

 

All right, here's a list of all the Loyalist Primarch's weapons used by normal Astartes;

 

- The Lion Helm, carried by Azrael

- The Lion Sword, carried by Cypher

- Spear of Russ, gifted to Bjorn and used by other marines

- Blade Encarne, gifted to Belarius and used by other marines

- Spear of Telesto, used by Arkio (which made him think he was Sanguinius)

- Gauntlet of the Forge, used by Vulkan He'Stan

- Raven's Talons, used by Kayvaan Shrike

The Lion Helm isn't Lion-o's helmet. Not only is it far smaller than a helm that could be worn by a Primarch (literally would not fit on his head), but it's not even the proper mark. The Lion Helm is MK VIII, which I don't think the Dark Angels even had access to in the Crusade/Heresy era considering it was a much later invention in the heresy. Cypher doesn't use the Lion's sword, he just carries it on his back after being given it by the Lion. 

 

 

Heehee, I didn't actually write that Cypher uses the sword, just that he carries it! So you corrected me for something I never actually claimed  

 

As for the Lion Helm, the Dark Angels 3rd Edition Codex states it was worn by the Primarch. Now that's obviously an inconsistency as there are images use by BL with Azrael wearing it, and the size difference should make that impossible... but you can't completely discount it.

 

http://orig02.deviantart.net/2ff9/f/2016/344/d/2/azrael___final___by_akimblya-dar52gu.jpg

[Volt]

Forgive me if I doubt the lore knowledge of someone who thinks Calgar wore the Gauntlets of Ultramar, or that a trained swordsman would cut off their back foot.

I must have missed mention of the fact that Azrael wears it - but if he does, I'm sure it would have been modified by an Artificer.

 

But you're welcome to your headcanon, just like everyone else.

What? Marneus Calgar goes into battle with the Gauntlers of Ultramar all the time. It's literally the only weapon he can legally take in the game. And hacking off your back foot is a serious problem with exceptionally long swords when executing a cut from the ground due to the length of the blade, and when using live steel/a power sword in 40k it would be so sharp that you wouldn't even feel the cut until finishing the flurry of strikes. The only thing preventing that from happening is muscle memory and simply not making that strike, but even the greatest masters will gak up and get injured. 

 

As for Azrael, Azrael does wear it. There also is no logical reason to believe it is the lion's helm at all when it is-

 

-Too small. And while an artificer can reduce the size of something to fit to another man, to re-fit a helmet from a giant to a smaller man would involve basically scrapping the entire original piece. The only thing that could remain original is the guts of the helmet itself such as the energy field it generates, but the armor plates itself could not be reduced to fit a smaller man without compromising their integrity as cuts to shaped metal greatly weakens it- welds are a structural weakness after all. Then there's also the religious horror of gutting a holy relic simply to resize it. 

 

-It's the wrong armor mark. MK VII armor was introduced in a time that the Lion or any Dark Angel pre-Battle of Terra should not have access to.

 

-It doesn't match any artistic depiction of the Lion in armor.

 

-The Lion and his armor was dragged off by the Watchers in the Dark after Cypher's conversation with the dying Lion, if the helm even still exists it's probably with the rest of the set.

 

So the only evidence supporting the notion that the Lion's Helm is in fact the Primarch's helmet is that the codex calls it the lion's helm. Which is little different from the Burning Blade in C:SM, which is not the Emperor's Sword as it's Guilliman that swings it about now. It also needs to be remembered that during the Crusade and Heresy, the Dark Angels only used power armor marks up to MK VI. They didn't use VII, and likewise the Dark Angel Chapter that is exclusively outfitted with Legion relics, the Consecrators, exclusively wear pre MK VII armor with most being clad in MK VI.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Volt

[Slave to Darkness]

When Azrael was sculpted we didnt know Primarchs were massive in size, and MK7 pattern armour was originally in production before the battle of Terra, though I do admit the production of said armour was moved to Terra so it would be hard to get it to Legions that were far away, but when do GW pay attention to their own fluff?

 

I also remember in one of the Soul Drinkers novels there was an Inquisitor running around with a sword bigger than he was, the weight and size didnt really matter due to suspensors, he could use it fine. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

All right, here's a list of all the Loyalist Primarch's weapons used by normal Astartes;

 

- The Lion Helm, carried by Azrael

- The Lion Sword, carried by Cypher

- Spear of Russ, gifted to Bjorn and used by other marines

- Blade Encarne, gifted to Belarius and used by other marines

- Spear of Telesto, used by Arkio (which made him think he was Sanguinius)

- Gauntlet of the Forge, used by Vulkan He'Stan

- Raven's Talons, used by Kayvaan Shrike

Ravens talons are the legion elites Wargear, go check out the raven guard section in the 30k rules

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Forgive me if I doubt the lore knowledge of someone who thinks Calgar wore the Gauntlets of Ultramar, or that a trained swordsman would cut off their back foot.

I must have missed mention of the fact that Azrael wears it - but if he does, I'm sure it would have been modified by an Artificer.

 

But you're welcome to your headcanon, just like everyone else.

What? Marneus Calgar goes into battle with the Gauntlers of Ultramar all the time.

 

 

 

I think he misspoke (mistyped?).  The reference was probably to Guilliman, not Calgar.

[Stoic Raptor]

 

What? Marneus Calgar goes into battle with the Gauntlers of Ultramar all the time.

 

Apologies, I meant to type Guilliman - per your previous post.

Regardless, your claim that the Lion Helm used by Azrael can't possibly be the real Lion Helm would seem to support the notion that Primarch wargear is not used by normal Astartes, rather than contradict it.

 

But again, if you're going to go by the model, then let's look at what the other models were like at the time.  Russ was smaller than a modern Marine.  The fact is, literary and artistic sources are often contradictory or inconsistent, and sculpts aren't all that different in that regard.

 

As for the sword thing, I'm not sure why you keep on insisting on this "cut from the ground" thing.  These people aren't mere mortals, they don't have to drag it along on the ground.  There's no reason why they couldn't (or wouldn't) fight with it at waist/chest level.  I'm interested to know how much actual experience you have with swordplay - because I practice with live steel, and though I'm no master, I've yet to cut myself, let alone hack my own foot off.  And the notion that you don't feel it because it's so sharp is silly and contradictory to how the human nervous system works.  I get the impression that you're basing these ideas off of fiction.  All of the weapons used by Marines are of ridiculous size, it's kind of the aesthetic.

[Urriak Urruk]

 

All right, here's a list of all the Loyalist Primarch's weapons used by normal Astartes;

 

- The Lion Helm, carried by Azrael

- The Lion Sword, carried by Cypher

- Spear of Russ, gifted to Bjorn and used by other marines

- Blade Encarne, gifted to Belarius and used by other marines

- Spear of Telesto, used by Arkio (which made him think he was Sanguinius)

- Gauntlet of the Forge, used by Vulkan He'Stan

- Raven's Talons, used by Kayvaan Shrike

Ravens talons are the legion elites Wargear, go check out the raven guard section in the 30k rules

 

 

Yeah it seems to be another peace of conflicting writing, as the Space Marine 4th Edition codex says that Corax made the Raven's Talons himself. Not arguing with you the 30k rules you cite are correct too.

 

One could resolve it by imagining that present-day Raven Guard think the Primarch made them when its simply one of the last remaining claws of that quality, that were more common in 30k.

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

All right, here's a list of all the Loyalist Primarch's weapons used by normal Astartes;

 

- The Lion Helm, carried by Azrael

- The Lion Sword, carried by Cypher

- Spear of Russ, gifted to Bjorn and used by other marines

- Blade Encarne, gifted to Belarius and used by other marines

- Spear of Telesto, used by Arkio (which made him think he was Sanguinius)

- Gauntlet of the Forge, used by Vulkan He'Stan

- Raven's Talons, used by Kayvaan Shrike

Ravens talons are the legion elites Wargear, go check out the raven guard section in the 30k rules

 

 

Yeah it seems to be another peace of conflicting writing, as the Space Marine 4th Edition codex says that Corax made the Raven's Talons himself. Not arguing with you the 30k rules you cite are correct too.

 

One could resolve it by imagining that present-day Raven Guard think the Primarch made them when its simply one of the last remaining claws of that quality, that were more common in 30k.

 

 

The bit of lore about Shrike getting to choose a piece of wargear on his promotion to Captain and coming out of the armory with them seems to support that theory. 

 

Or it could be that Corax actually did make them, but left them behind and never used them himself. In that case, the claws could be exceptionally long and have been transferred to gauntlets sized for a normal Astartes. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Claws and Effect

[bluntblade]

Calgar, it should be added, has more metal in him than the average Iron Hand. Lot of additional strength.

[Ishagu]

The Gauntlets of Ultramar were not one of Guilliman's weapons as of the most recent lore.

[Leonaides]

They werent in the oldest lore either tbh...

[bluntblade]

The Gauntlets of Ultramar were not one of Guilliman's weapons as of the most recent lore.

Still big enough to fit him though, hence my point about them being an exception.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Yeah, the Russian armed forces should totally take Zeitzev's Mosin into the field again. And those restored WWII Shermans should go back on duty, I mean, they're relics right? Maybe empty out Bovington while we're at it, there are so many relics there you can hardly process it all.

 

And those gatling guns, and muskets too. Let's get them out there! Museums are troves of relic weapons, after all.

[Stoic Raptor]

Difference being, in 40K, a 10,000 year-old weapon is probably better than whatever is currently being used.  Technology has declined, rather than the other way around.

 

Patton used Blackjack Pershing's revolvers, if I recall.