My Thoughts on Female Space Marines

[BitsHammer]

So I have a blog that I sometimes update (really should update more often) where I deep dived into my thoughts on female Space Marines since the topic has come up with greater frequency online. I welcome discussion on it, but let's keep it civil.

 

Originally posted here, I'm quoting myself for those who don't want to go offsite just to read an article. All art used was to more to show the concept in a manner that doesn't go down the pinup strawman route I've seen claimed online.

 

 

 

Something I've seen a fair bit of debate on as of the time of writing has revolved around if we should see female Space Marines in Warhammer 40k, and this being the internet I naturally have my own thoughts and opinions on it I want to share. That said, I think the best way for me to talk about my current opinion is to discuss what my opinion used to be and how it's changed. And just to break things up a bit I'll be sprinkling in some female Space Marine art with links to the artists.

 

https://www.deviantart.com/blazbaros/art/Tyra-528977952
When I first learned about Warhammer 40k in 2004 I was a blank slate for the setting. I'd walked into a game shop in my local neighborhood to buy some Magic cards (I played with friends in High School all those years ago, so yes I have always been this nerdy) and saw my first game of Warhammer 40k with a game of Grey Knights against Nurgle Chaos including a possessed Chaos Rhino with green stuffed tentacles and I was honestly hooked. I soon after picked up a Dark Angels army because I thought the idea of extra stubborn Space Marines was cool but I didn't really really get into the game at the time though I was interested things hadn't . The only lore I was exposed to at the time was what in the Dark Angels book and the core rulebook so I had a vague idea of a candelit space ship flying through hell with Space Marines inside. I was hooked by that idea at the time, but didn't really know it then. 

 

 

Honestly, this art has likely influenced a lot of my tastes in model asthetics

 

I came back to Warhammer 40k years later during 5th edition and really got into the lore I didn't know much about what came before and took it all as an unchanging continuum so I had the stance that the lore was only added to, and rarely, if ever, changed. I was wrong of course as Warhammer sees changes and retcons all too often, mostly for the better as they refine ideas over time and slowly sift out the weaker ideas and hold onto the stronger ones. That isn't to say that they always nail it, but the lore does change and shift as I learned later.

My first encounter with discovering that things have and do get changed was learning about the Black Crusade campaign as the events of that where walked back and the setting was returned to before the 13th Black Crusade occurred bringing Eldrad back from the dead as well resetting the events of that campaign, though it does seem to be a large influence of the events of the Gathering Storm we got later.

But at this point I understood that Space Marines had to be men for some reason, but there was never a hardline reason that said that women couldn't be Astartes, just that the Astartes recruited men and the general community assumption was something to do with geneseed rejection but I've never seen anything actually putting a reason to it.. I'd even tried figuring out a justification for it on my own but honestly Astartes biology has always been a bit odd with things like the ability to eat memories, or the solid rib plate (though that seems to be turning into more like overlapping bones to give the same effect but have the ability to flex so they can actually breathe) so I didn't question it much and just took it at face value as I'm sure a lot of us have. 

 

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/xJJZyY
Primaris Marines changed that for me though. The Mechanicus tampering with geneseed wasn't new before that between chapters having Chimeric geneseed, the Cursed Founding, or unusually large Marines like Silas Albrec of the Exorcists chapter who has been described as being Ogryn sized while in regular power armour. But the idea triggered something in my mind that maybe what I understood about the Astartes wasn't as carved into stone as I thought. Now the changes weren't as over the top as the inital hype and vague lore discussion mentioned, but they had still opened a door just a little that said that the Marines didn't have to stay the same.

 

Now by this time I'd already cemented in my mind the idea that Chaos Marines being of either sex was fair game because the Warp is pure handwavium spackle for anything you want in the setting so it made some sort of sense to me that some of the Chaos Space Marines could be women. There's even a woman running around trapped inside daemonically possessed power armour, so anything was possible there.

That said, the door to the idea was cracked, but I hadn't really opened it at that point. It was the introduction of Amar Astarte in the Horus Heresy series as the creator of the Thunder Warriors and Space Marines who pushed it open a bit further because even her work had limits despite her genius (her Black Carapace design was flawed and had to be improved upon by others, and she held strong beliefs that Space Marine Legions were doomed without their Primarchs) which showed that there was room for the Marines to be improved upon further.

 

https://boltertokokoro.tumblr.com/post/155922701322/female-space-marine-not-sure-if-i-posted-this

 

With Corax's Raptors being free from the shackles of potential geneseed rejection and even being able to be created much faster and the introduction of the Primarchs having a mother it became increasingly clear that any limiting factor for implantation based on sex was artificially put into the geneseed instead of being a natural part of it's nature. 

One thought I've had is that maybe this was to prevent the Marines from having children who'd be pure Astartes from birth and remove the reliance the Astartes have with humanity that seems to be there to keep them in check, but honestly that's a poor excuse when you consider that most people generally accept that the Astartes are likely sterile if non-functional in that department anyways making it rather moot.

So I came around to the idea that there wasn't a real lore reason stopping them from being a thing, so how did we end up with them being limited to only being men? 1980's sales data. To explain, here's a screenshot of Alan Merrett weighing on on why they restricted the Marines to being only men:

That's right 80s nerds are why we don't have female Space Marines

Now mind you, the models in question looked like this:

 

So it's rather clear why the models weren't really selling. Some of those early models were rough to say the least, especially when it came to female faces. One of the common beliefs for why Sisters of Battle languished for so long was because the old models didn't sell well (being direct only and only metal didn't help either) so they weren't worth investing in because there wasn't a strong enough market for them.

Now in hindsight we know that's not true. Good models create a market far beyond even the initial interest in the original model line has, and can even bring people back into the hobby. Sisters have proven to be an overwhelming success that has lead, at the time of writing, to them seeing a second expansion in the range in the near future much like how the reboot of Dark Eldar in 5th edition lead to them seeing a second wave of models due to the massive success of the first.

So we know that the lore doesn't have concrete restrictions to keep the geneseed bound to real restrictions, and the decision was made over 30 years ago based on poor sales of rather poor models during a time when the hobby was far more male dominated than today, so the question then becomes "can there be female Space Marines?" but "should there be female Space Marines?" To which I can only say "yes".

 

https://www.deviantart.com/blazbaros/art/Domitia-526105844
A case for inclusivity and representation, especially among the poster faction of a game system, is definitely fair to make and not a bad one. And I don't believe letting women be Space Marines would really alter the tone of the setting, if anything it'd darken it further as it means that humanity is in such dire straits that even the Astartes are forced to take anyone who can pass their trials and not just the men. We can even make arguments about women and their role historically as soldiers, but I think there is a better arguement to be made than all of those. 

 

When you really get into it, Warhammer 40,000 is a sandbox that lets you express your creativity with a wide range of tools. It's even encouraged to create your own custom factions to represent your own personal take on the setting and when you get down to it, the idea that female Marines can't be canon undermines that concept. It draws a line in the sand and goes "well you can do anything you like, but no girls". And honestly that should change. We've seen a lot of changes already to break the tight confines of chapter formation with the introduction of Primaris and their almost limitless possible configurations and unit options so it's not a big step to let women into the Astartes as well, and it's one that only helps add more creativity and options into the setting.

And I'm sure that someone will go "what about Sisters of Battle? Are you suggesting we add Misters of Battle too?" Yes and now. While there has never been a hard line in the sand that really justified why we can't have women serving as Astartes, the Sororitas have always had the Decree Passive (and the loophole both penned by Sebastian Thor) that said they can't have "men under arms" as a means of restricting the military power of the Ministorum. That isn't to say we haven't seen males available to be taken for the Sisters. There have been Frateris Militia and Zealot units available to the army in the past, and there is always room to expand the priesthood of the Ministorum even further for the army. Additionally Arco-flagellants show that servitors don't count, so there is room to add men there as well.

 

https://www.deviantart.com/sorrowking/art/Repairs-or-Gene-seed-stuff-up-27241204
So yes, there is room for more men in the Sisters of Battle, but no I'm not saying men should be Sisters of Battle. The Decree Passive is just too integral to the identity of the faction, while being men really doesn't define the Astartes as much as being post-human weapons divorced from the humanity they protect. If it was more integeral to the way the army is defined I'd feel differently, but honestly I find that the whole idea of them only being men wasn't really a core design point of the faction and has been more loosely handwaved as a thing later when honestly they could have said that the faction had women, even if they didn't provide bare female heads.

 

To wrap this up, there isn't a strong narrative justification for the restriction, it's not even a strong part of their core identity and the business reasons don't really hold up in 2021 when factions with large amounts of female models have done far better than GW seems to have expected. The restriction seems to be more for removing creativity from players and telling them that their ideas can't really be part of the setting because they broke a rule that came about by coincidence rather than deliberate planning when the Astartes were first designed.

So I think that we should all want the option for female Space Marines just for the options it'd open up. For example I was thinking about an all female Space Wolf successor who could be named the Valkyries. Problem is I can't find female Viking style heads sized for Primaris bodies. And you can't convince me that they wouldn't make for a cool addition to the setting. I mean, you could, but then you'd be wrong.

Happy Hobbying!

-Matt

Edited May 8, 2021 by Fulkes

[Gederas]

There's also that as MetalMammoth said.

 

Additionally, while "No female Space Marines" started because of nerds in the 80s, the lore has been expanded in that the Astartes process was coded based on the Emperor's genome for male (XY) subjects. Even today we have issues due to transgender people not informing doctors of their birth gender because certain drugs affect men (XY) and women (XX) differently, to the point of some being potentially lethal when used on the wrong person.

 

Modern day science, which is very likely safer than 40k. And the Astartes process is way, way more invasive than modern medicine.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= And that's why we don't see these topics much around here. It's impossible to talk about this subject without going into real life politics and issues. =][=

Edited May 8, 2021 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have to say I feel like brother Folkes presented an excellent case. First neckbeard comment it was immediately locked. I expect so much better here.

[Grotsmasha]

Its currently under discussion, hold tight.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It can be discussed in an adult manner. Thanks grotsmasha.

[techsoldaten]

Mods should go easy on this thread.

 

I enjoy the hyperbole of both sides, stretching logic to extremes going far beyond whatever point they were trying to make. Let people twist themselves up if they want to!

 

GW makes miniatures based on consumer appetite. If there's a market for this - by which I mean discrete initial purchases and long-term goals of attracting players to the hobby and retaining them through the purchase of multiple armies - it will happen. Otherwise not. There's no number of elaborate, TL-DR posts to a thread that will cause that to change.

 

I like the new Guard heads. That's progress. Let's let them get where this is headed without condemning them over quotas.

[NovemberIX]

I believe the discussion is worth having, and can be had by those willing to share ideas in good faith. My position is that we shouldn't freeze discussion as much as possible. I also think it's a discussion that doesn't have to concern itself with "politics"  (Valkyries and Amazonians as basic archetypes), and I think we all have to remember this is a multi-author multi-generational fictional future fantasy setting that is known for it's occasional retcons and unreliable cannon, it's also a sandbox for personal headcannon's to play out on a tabletop. Essentially as a wise person once taught me, just cause it's not your flavor, don't yuck someone else's yum.

[excelite]

Tbh I don’t think there „needs“ to be a wide spread discussion that is subject to possible hard feelings and inherits the very likely possibility to start a fight about.

 

Personally I don’t care if there are official gender specific (astartes) models… if there are: fine! If there are not: also fine!

 

The great thing about this hobby is that you are free to do as you wish: you want female astartes: feel free to slap some female heads on them… you’d like to have boob armored space marines? Feel free to slap astartes helmets on sister models… you don’t like either? Great: go crazy with free greenstuff!

 

You don’t feel that the official lore suits your mixed gender chapter? Sure, go ahead create a custom one with matching lore!

 

On a stretch: want to go transgender? Sure, why not? (Might be a little hard to model, but daemons could work?)

 

Thing is: nobody is keeping you from enjoying this hobby the way you want it (besides yourself). You can either talk about all this stuff or you can get going with kitbashing/modeling/writing and enjoying the hobby…

[Sarvis]

I’m not going to go into my opinions, because it may break the rules of B&C, but I’ll say I am against female space marines. Go play sob if you want power armored ladies. And I agree with all of Gederas’ & metal mammoths points in the last thread.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= Things are currently being discussed between the mods here so I advise hang tight. =][=

[Kastor Krieg]

If female or LGBTQ or other members want to model and fluff their Marines to present as female, to get representation in the hobby, this especially should never be stifled. There's also no fathomable issue with a male member sticking female, grot or Tau heads onto their Marine bodies and calling it a project.

What should not be allowed is open bashing of users' models / unit fluff for doing something that isn't canon but doesn't hurt anyone.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Reclusiarch Krieg

[WarriorFish]

Let us take a pause here for a moment, rest your weary fingers traveller. The first point is as noted that anything can be discussed if it is done properly and within the B&C's rules and mission statement. That is of course with civility and respect. If you can not do this you should reconsider your participation and its merits to constructive discussion.

 

The second is that this respect goes a long way. If a topic is locked do not recreate it without consulting with a member of the team first. This is not respecting the B&C, or its rules. I should not need to remind anyone that they are a requirement to follow. All of them, at all times. Everyone agreed to do so as a prerequisite to join there are no excuses and no exceptions.

 

Last and far from least: I know I am far from alone in that I am sick of posts needing removal and topics getting closed because people can't be nice or follow the rules. Why isn't it the basic standard to respond properly and with respect to other arguments? Surely it is a simple notion to treat others as you would like to be treated?

 

Now, this topic will continue but if people can't behave then the topic will be closed. In case anyone has forgotten, this is the mission statement:

 

The Bolter & Chainsword exists to help people better enjoy and understand the Warhammer 40,000 hobby and games set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe through constructive discussion.

 

It's a pretty low bar I think?

[Slave to Darkness]

If female or LGBTQ or other members want to model and fluff their Marines to present as female, to get representation in the hobby, this especially should never be stifled. There's also no fathomable issue with a male member sticking female, grot or Tau heads onto their Marine bodies and calling it a project.

 

What should not be allowed is open bashing of users' models / unit fluff for doing something that isn't canon but doesn't hurt anyone.

I dont have an issue with people conversions or personal armies, I have issue with people saying GW should make fem marines. Either way I have no faith in GW with the lore now, Primaris marines running round with the most vanilla Primarch ever penned farting out miracles all over the Imperium even though its ripped in half and Chaos is drinking your soul out through your nose, Im not a fan of Age of Guilliman... 

 

Some people use the diversity card, but are they genuine with their requests or are they part of the toxic 'woke' movement that see's everything as problematic and wants 'diversity' jammed in everywhere for them to them move on when the franchise has flopped? Also what body shape do the femmarines have? Curvy and busty or the bodyshape of a 12 year old boy so she isnt over sexualised? Even if they give in and make fem marines some of the people that want them will still complain. 

 

Representation, I want short fat bald bearded people, bring back Squats, they have always been in the lore and they are great. :D  

 

Either way give us new Eldar Aspects before you ruin anything else GW. 

[Doghouse]

Can we have male Adeptus Sorritas?

[Slave to Darkness]

 

 

It's a pretty low bar I think?

Bit like the quality of the current lore :D 

 

Ill take my jokes elsewhere now to a thread that isnt on the verge of a breakdown. Ill talk to myself in my Chaos thread, at least the voices agree with me mostly. 

Can we have male Adeptus Sorritas?

You mean Misters of Battle? Stronger, faster and with amazing facial hair and monocles? Bang Space Wolf heads on Sisters minis, thats what Im doing. 

[Valkyrion]

Space Marines are so post human that their sex doesn't really matter. A female space marine would behave like her male counterpart and a male space marine wouldn't even register that a member of their squad was female.

 

There are loads of strong female characters already established within the lore, there are several of female members within the Eldar range and obviously the entire factions of Daughters of Khaine, Silent Sisterhood and Sororitas, and Alpharius introduced (to me at least, there may be others) a same sex couple.

 

What does a female space marine add? What story would be improved by the addition of female marines? Would Horus Rising be better if Little Horus was female? Would the Raven Guard be better if Shrike was female? If Ferrus Manus was female? Why? 

 

I wholly appreciate that female guardsman could and should be better represented on the tabletop - i can't comment on the lore as I haven't read any guardsman novels - ditto Eldar, Dark Eldar and even Tau(?) - but what about space marines is made better by the inclusion of female marines?

[Doghouse]

I'm not really fussed about this either way because at the end of the day. It is up to the individual how they make their models, I've even made female marines for a guy in the past. But having said that I do have to say that thread was clearly biased and not about defending people making female marine models in the slightest. 

 

"but no I'm not saying men should be Sisters of Battle. The Decree Passive is just too integral to the identity of the faction, while being men really doesn't define the Astartes as much as being post-human weapons divorced from the humanity they protect."  

 

If you want female marines then make female marines it is really that simple. 40k lore is HUGE and with enough imagination you can justify anything.

 

But in this case saying you can have female marines but not male sisters of battle because of the lore is incredibly biased given the same lore is why we do not have female marines. This is a clear case of cherry picking and then trying to tell others why they are wrong.

 

If you want to prove people wrong make an army but like any non canon concept army you cannot expect people to have to accept the idea. 

 

Everyone interprets the hobby through their own lens. 

[Slave to Darkness]

Space Marines are so post human that their sex doesn't really matter. A female space marine would behave like her male counterpart and a male space marine wouldn't even register that a member of their squad was female.

 

There are loads of strong female characters already established within the lore, there are several of female members within the Eldar range and obviously the entire factions of Daughters of Khaine, Silent Sisterhood and Sororitas, and Alpharius introduced (to me at least, there may be others) a same sex couple.

 

What does a female space marine add? What story would be improved by the addition of female marines? Would Horus Rising be better if Little Horus was female? Would the Raven Guard be better if Shrike was female? If Ferrus Manus was female? Why? 

 

I wholly appreciate that female guardsman could and should be better represented on the tabletop - i can't comment on the lore as I haven't read any guardsman novels - ditto Eldar, Dark Eldar and even Tau(?) - but what about space marines is made better by the inclusion of female marines?

Could just say that all parts of the human anatomy that you cant kill people with is removed, then marines are neither gender. That way everybodys upset so no ones feelings on the matter, well... matter. 

[Slave to Darkness]

I'm not really fussed about this either way because at the end of the day. It is up to the individual how they make their models, I've even made female marines for a guy in the past. But having said that I do have to say that thread was clearly biased and not about defending people making female marine models in the slightest. 

 

"but no I'm not saying men should be Sisters of Battle. The Decree Passive is just too integral to the identity of the faction, while being men really doesn't define the Astartes as much as being post-human weapons divorced from the humanity they protect."  

 

If you want female marines then make female marines it is really that simple. 40k lore is HUGE and with enough imagination you can justify anything.

 

But in this case saying you can have female marines but not male sisters of battle because of the lore is incredibly biased given the same lore is why we do not have female marines. This is a clear case of cherry picking and then trying to tell others why they are wrong.

 

If you want to prove people wrong make an army but like any non canon concept army you cannot expect people to have to accept the idea. 

 

Everyone interprets the hobby through their own lens. 

I was literally typing something similar but you worded it better. :) 

 

So yeah what he said. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

I find it next to impossible to discuss this issue and getting to the heart of the matter without breaking the rules (on account to it being a subject that IS intrinsically tied to political view point and adherent to certain leanings, not any rules about not being nice mind you). These rules have already been broken at the onset because like it or not, from the very first op post, it is already presenting political view point. Heck, its even taking potshots at anyone who might think differently, regardless of why. It has to be because of only one reason, right? Assumptions like these permeate the entire body of text.

 

Not just directly called anyone disagreeing 'wrong' but possibly implying worse for merely entertaining the idea that we shouldn't just change the lore. He also just hand waves away the idea that we can't have male sisters of battle because it's too tied to the identity of the organisation that it has to be female only. I guess 30 year real life history and 10000 years of fictional history don't count. Double standards much? Either champion inclusivity fully or don't bother.

 

The thing that I really don't jive well with is this assumption that because I'm of a certain sex, certain gender, certain race, I cannot identify with any characters that don't tick all the same boxes as me. I fundamentally reject this view set. 

 

The double standard is probably the worst part though. Either go all the way with both SoB and SM, or do it with neither.

[Valkyrion]

40k as a game and a setting is inclusive. That a fictional faction within the game's story isn't inclusive doesn't make the setting exclusive.

[Marshal Loss]

There were some good opportunities in the past to improve representation, e.g. with the Adeptus Custodes (ADB wanted to add female Custodians in Master of Mankind, but GW said no because the models had already been designed - but not released - at that point), that sadly passed us by. Broadly speaking, however, things are trending in the right direction.

 

I have mixed feelings on female marines. In practical terms, I don't see it ever happening. Besides, GW are doing a much better job of diversifying other ranges (e.g. the recent Cadian upgrade preview) these days, we have the Sisters of Battle, etc. I'm sure they'll continue to do this across the board as the years tick by.

 

But I also think there are good arguments in favour of their addition.

 

What does a female space marine add? What story would be improved by the addition of female marines? Would Horus Rising be better if Little Horus was female? Would the Raven Guard be better if Shrike was female? If Ferrus Manus was female? Why?

 

It adds representation. Space Marines dominate 40k. Most of the books are about them, most of the art depicts them, most of the models are them. They are at the absolute heart of everything Warhammer 40k is, and that is never going to change. Yes, females exist in other factions, yes the Sisters of Battle are a thing, but the inevitable consequence of all-male Space Marines is a universe where the overwhelming majority of the setting's material depicts men. It makes it a lot harder for a woman to pick up a campaign book or a novel or a box of miniatures and see herself in the setting. That's just a fact.

 

This is what it boils down to for me. If marines weren't the central, ever-present institution that they are, it wouldn't matter. But they are, and so I can see why for some individuals it really does matter. This is why the "we have all-female sisters, so there's nothing wrong with all-male space marines" argument doesn't fly for me. One is not equal to the other.

 

To be clear, I don't think it needs to happen. This isn't something I'm actively campaigning for. But female marines wouldn't ruin my enjoyment of the setting, and as others have said above, gender doesn't really matter when it comes to marines. Do all factions need to be gender equal? I don't think so, but I also don't see a good reason for there not being female space marines beyond "the lore says (x)", when the lore already changes all the time. I'm not an authority on this sort of thing. I just try to keep an open mind. Occasionally I see people bring up historical reasons for why men should be depicted more than women in tabletop 40k, and as a actual historian, I think those arguments are spectacularly nonsensical.

 

A universe where e.g. Custodians were all male, Sisters were all female, and Marines were both male and female, would be far more equitable in my view. If I were in charge of 40k, I'd consider doing that.

 

This is such a tricky issue to discuss because, like it or not, representation in a fictional setting like 40k is just one part of a far larger sociopolitical issue. There's no right or wrong answer here. I applaud the measured responses on this thread, and appreciate the vigilance of our moderators.

[Doghouse]

Female Custodes would have been good if they had wanted to go that route. They're made with a different process to Astartes that hasn't been massively explored and there would be ample room for logical lore reasoning there especially as it was a new army previously only having one metal rogue trader era model.

 

You could easily explain it away because the process and materials would be far superior and therefore more likely to be able to succeed. I think given the mystery behind how they are created you could even go the same way they did with Stormcast and have a clear visible difference between the two.

[Gederas]

Female Custodes would have been good if they had wanted to go that route. They're made with a different process to Astartes that hasn't been massively explored and there would be ample room for logical lore reasoning there especially as it was a new army previously only having one metal rogue trader era model.

 

You could easily explain it away because the process and materials would be far superior and therefore more likely to be able to succeed. I think given the mystery behind how they are created you could even go the same way they did with Stormcast and have a clear visible difference between the two.

I mean, the fluff for Custodes in the codex and iirc the Black Books for HH seems to imply/borderline state that Custodes are what the Emperor wanted for Humanity. So why not make males and females? If He wanted humanity to be like Cutsodes, and if they're a much more refined process than Space Marines (who do still posses the "necessary equipment" per the information on the Space Wolves), they're probably the one group of superhumans who do have actual females.

 

I mean, the fact that ADB was only told "no" to female Custodes because the models already exist and not "there's no female Custodes because lore reasons", that's much more telling.