SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

Khan and his Legion are out. Dorn and his Legion are isolated at Bhab plus the Fists have already lost most of their Marines. Blood Angels already took losses

 

Meanwhile the Bulk of the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children are still fresh

 

More and more Daemons are attacking Bhab, the Astronomicon, Lion Gate Spaceport and Palace plus they are getting stronger

 

Katshuhiro and Keeler together only have a few thousand Cannon Fodder. Millions of Traitor Guardsmen landed in just ONE Chapter of Mortis, two books back, alone!

 

Dis Irae is still operational, willing to fight and has Plot Armor unlike Sanginius

 

Vast majority of Legio Mortis still operational with very few Loyalist Titans still alive. Traitor Warmaster Titans 100% alive and healthy

 

Dark Mechanicum still has plenty of Traitor Skitarii plus Warmachines to throw at

 

Olly's stalker plus the Word Bearers and Night Lords are still active

 

Millions of Traitor Guardsmen landed during Warhawk

 

Millions more in Echoes

 

At this point Sang only has Katsuhiro, Keeler, few Blood Angels, Blackshields plus all the 'Conscripts' from the Blackstone Prison

 

Malcador can lend his secret Regiment which would only last a few minutes against the Endless Traitors

 

 

Fists have already lost 'most of their marines' yet they can go after the Iron Warriors following the Siege? Interesting.

Angels are currently holding the walls.

 

Sons of Horus - Leadership is in shambles, essentially decapitated, with just pockets of warbands forming.

Death Guard - Gutted, lost their Primarch.

World Eaters - Shattered, insane.

Emperors Children - Shattered, insane, gone rogue.

Thousand Sons - Not even there for the Siege, they are gone.

Daemons - Still cant even hold onto reality, not even a viable force yet.

 

Word Bearers and Night Lords are not even a meaningful force, already falling into 'warbands'.

 

Look, I'm Chaos forever, but your reading is suspect.

 

Well explained

 

For sure, Horus still holds the upper hand, and if he had the time, he would eventually see the Emperor's defenses crushed along with the Emperor's dreams. But he doesn't have the time. That's the most crucial resource that Horus doesn't have, and as that goes so do his options.

 

.... On the bright side though, I'm sure the chaos gods are still vastly entertained by it all

[grailkeeper]

Hopefully this one features no marines and instead only features random people appearing through different parts of history in a way that seems like an allegory, but isn't. The more disjointed the better- if I can understand what's happening I'll be very disappointed. Edited February 27, 2022 by grailkeeper

[Moonreaper666]

 

Fists have already lost 'most of their marines' yet they can go after the Iron Warriors following the Siege? Interesting.

Angels are currently holding the walls.

 

Sons of Horus - Leadership is in shambles, essentially decapitated, with just pockets of warbands forming.

Death Guard - Gutted, lost their Primarch.

World Eaters - Shattered, insane.

Emperors Children - Shattered, insane, gone rogue.

Thousand Sons - Not even there for the Siege, they are gone.

Daemons - Still cant even hold onto reality, not even a viable force yet.

 

Word Bearers and Night Lords are not even a meaningful force, already falling into 'warbands'.

 

Look, I'm Chaos forever, but your reading is suspect.

This is a Siege so it's just throwing soldiers into a meatgrinder and that's why the numbers matter

 

Plus the Dis Irae has more Plot Armor than Sanginius. So if the Dis Irae attacks the Gate well bye bye Sang.

 

In the old Lore Magnus and his Legion did participate at attacking the Gate

 

Daemons are already manifesting inside the Palace keeping the Custodes occupied

 

Word Bearers did attack the Gate in Warhawk so they are still in the Siege

 

All the Traitors have to do is send Angron, Ka'Bandha, Magnus, Fulgrim and Dis Irae to curbstomp Sanginius

 

Dorn and his Legion is isolated at Bhab. Daemons are attacking them. They try to breakout they would be slaughtered by Legio Mortis, Undead Titans and Warmaster Titans.

 

Most of the Death Guard did not participate in the LionGate Spaceport. Vorx and Typhus still command them.

 

Millions of Traitors would be landing during Echoes alone. Millions more in the Final Siege Novel.

 

Strange that Skulltaker, Changeling and Shalaxi Hellbane are in the Siege. Guess each one is just to OP for the Loyalist to handle.

[Scribe]

 

Fists have already lost 'most of their marines' yet they can go after the Iron Warriors following the Siege? Interesting.

Angels are currently holding the walls.

 

Sons of Horus - Leadership is in shambles, essentially decapitated, with just pockets of warbands forming.

Death Guard - Gutted, lost their Primarch.

World Eaters - Shattered, insane.

Emperors Children - Shattered, insane, gone rogue.

Thousand Sons - Not even there for the Siege, they are gone.

Daemons - Still cant even hold onto reality, not even a viable force yet.

 

Word Bearers and Night Lords are not even a meaningful force, already falling into 'warbands'.

 

Look, I'm Chaos forever, but your reading is suspect.

This is a Siege so it's just throwing soldiers into a meatgrinder and that's why the numbers matter

 

Plus the Dis Irae has more Plot Armor than Sanginius. So if the Dis Irae attacks the Gate well bye bye Sang.

 

In the old Lore Magnus and his Legion did participate at attacking the Gate

 

Daemons are already manifesting inside the Palace keeping the Custodes occupied

 

Word Bearers did attack the Gate in Warhawk so they are still in the Siege

 

All the Traitors have to do is send Angron, Ka'Bandha, Magnus, Fulgrim and Dis Irae to curbstomp Sanginius

 

Dorn and his Legion is isolated at Bhab. Daemons are attacking them. They try to breakout they would be slaughtered by Legio Mortis, Undead Titans and Warmaster Titans.

 

Most of the Death Guard did not participate in the LionGate Spaceport. Vorx and Typhus still command them.

 

Millions of Traitors would be landing during Echoes alone. Millions more in the Final Siege Novel.

 

Strange that Skulltaker, Changeling and Shalaxi Hellbane are in the Siege. Guess each one is just to OP for the Loyalist to handle.

 

 

You keep talking about Plot Armour for Dis Irae, as if its at all relevant in contrast to the Plot Armour for Sanguinius? Hello? Sanguinius WILL be there to fight Horus, on his ship, and there is literally NOTHING that will prevent that from happening, even if he has to throw Dies Irae into the warp personally.

 

Magus doesnt care about the gate. He doesnt care about the Siege. The shorts have made this clear.

 

The Daemons manifesting are weak, ineffectual, as the wards continue to function just enough. The Daemons needed the power of a primarch (Mortarion) and that level of corruption to really start making an impact, and the Death Guard lost that battle, hard.

 

"All the Traitors have to do is send Angron, Ka'Bandha, Magnus, Fulgrim and Dis Irae to curbstomp Sanginius."

 

Literally false. Sanguinius would beat every single one, at the same time, because Sanguinius faces Horus. There is exactly 0% chance that is changed, especially by ADB.

 

As always your head cannon is fine, but dont mistake it for the reality as presented by the text and the history of the setting.

[Sonoftheforest]

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

[Scribe]

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

 

And even then, its a titan. Are we going to pretend its as central to the setting, not just 30K, not just the Siege, but 40K as well, the entire mythology of Imperium, as Sanguinius?

 

Its an absolutely absurd view.

 

Sangunius matters.

[Noserenda]

I see it now, The mighty Emperor titan, tripping over a pipeline and spending the rest of the siege clutching a knee and howling :D

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

And even then, its a titan. Are we going to pretend its as central to the setting, not just 30K, not just the Siege, but 40K as well, the entire mythology of Imperium, as Sanguinius?

 

Its an absolutely absurd view.

 

Sangunius matters.

Problem being that Dis Irae survives the Siege only to die 10k years later. Sanginius can't fight it because the Traitor Titan has to survive the Siege.

 

There is no way Sanginius alone can hold the Gate. He needs serious reinforcements like ALL of the remaining Sisters of Silence, Malcador and his secret Army, plus countless Conscripts (Billions) to barely hold that damn Gate.

 

Two big groups of Loyalist are going to die keeping Dis Irae alone occupied for the rest of the Siege

 

A massive group of Loyalists has to keep Legio Mortis occupied. Another big group deals with the Warmaster Titans.

 

The bulk of the Death Guard is still alive being lead by Typhus and Vorx. More Loyalists have to be thrown at them just in Echoes alone, nevermind the Final Siege book.

 

Angron is going to attack the Gate head-on. I would call BS if Sanginius even last longer than a few minutes against him.

 

In the old Lore, Magnus unleashed a magical explosion very close to the Gate.

 

World Eaters are still mostly alive and are attacking. A lot of unfortunate Loyalists have to die keeping them from entering the Palace.

 

Millions of Traitor Guardsmen have landed in Mortis alone. Millions more in Warhawk. More millions landing during Echoes. Unless Keeler and Dorn throw every man, woman and child at the MILLIONS of Traitor Guardsmen they are going to take the Palace.

 

What do the Loyalists have by the start of Echoes? What can they afford to throw at all of the various Traitor elements still in the Siege throughout Echoes?

[Kelborn]

Perturabo beat Angron before

 

Sangi is one of the deadliest Primarchs

 

He can fly

 

Black rage mode => game over

 

Which would also add to his already beaten state of mind and his depressing mood to fall victim to what cursed his legion. (Not up to date on either siege or BA stuff so correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Ubiquitous1984]

We saw what happened to Sangunius in Fear to Tread when 500 of his sons were killed.  If an even worse tragedy was to take place* in the lead up to his appearance at the Eternity Gate, then plot armour will fly out of the window and all bets are off.

 

*feel free to speculate what could be even more impactful than 500 dead sons.  A personal plea from the Emperor?  

[grailkeeper]

How old is the lore about Magnus letting off an explosion?

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Plus its not like Dies Irae a titan, daemonic or not, can't be taken out and repaired/healed at a later date.

And even then, its a titan. Are we going to pretend its as central to the setting, not just 30K, not just the Siege, but 40K as well, the entire mythology of Imperium, as Sanguinius?

 

Its an absolutely absurd view.

 

Sangunius matters.

Problem being that Dis Irae survives the Siege only to die 10k years later. Sanginius can't fight it because the Traitor Titan has to survive the Siege.

 

There is no way Sanginius alone can hold the Gate. He needs serious reinforcements like ALL of the remaining Sisters of Silence, Malcador and his secret Army, plus countless Conscripts (Billions) to barely hold that damn Gate.

 

Two big groups of Loyalist are going to die keeping Dis Irae alone occupied for the rest of the Siege

 

A massive group of Loyalists has to keep Legio Mortis occupied. Another big group deals with the Warmaster Titans.

 

The bulk of the Death Guard is still alive being lead by Typhus and Vorx. More Loyalists have to be thrown at them just in Echoes alone, nevermind the Final Siege book.

 

Angron is going to attack the Gate head-on. I would call BS if Sanginius even last longer than a few minutes against him.

 

In the old Lore, Magnus unleashed a magical explosion very close to the Gate.

 

World Eaters are still mostly alive and are attacking. A lot of unfortunate Loyalists have to die keeping them from entering the Palace.

 

Millions of Traitor Guardsmen have landed in Mortis alone. Millions more in Warhawk. More millions landing during Echoes. Unless Keeler and Dorn throw every man, woman and child at the MILLIONS of Traitor Guardsmen they are going to take the Palace.

 

What do the Loyalists have by the start of Echoes? What can they afford to throw at all of the various Traitor elements still in the Siege throughout Echoes?

What exactly is your point though?

 

We already know the post-Siege reality.

 

We already know the broad strokes, and as Warhawk showed, good authors adhere to them.

 

ADB has proven, and is on record saying as much, that he cares a lot about cleaving to the history, the lore.

 

Sanguinius will hold the gate. As many need to live, die, be present, or missing, will be so, for the constraints of the story he tells.

 

It's not likely to be the story of a Titan, or Angron, or Magnus, though it may have Night Lords for a number of reasons.

 

Regardless, if you are looking for realistic numbers of attackers, defenders, assets and troop movements...

 

You will be completely disappointed, I'm sure of it.

[Moonreaper666]

How old is the lore about Magnus letting off an explosion?

I think it was in Visions of Heresy?

[Taliesin]

 

It's not likely to be the story of a Titan, or Angron, or Magnus, though it may have Night Lords for a number of reasons.

 

Regardless, if you are looking for realistic numbers of attackers, defenders, assets and troop movements...

 

You will be completely disappointed, I'm sure of it.

 

 

I do think if we look at the synopsis, it does usually indicate who the main players will be in a book, as it did for Warhawk as well.

 

" The walls have fallen. The defenders’ unity is broken. The Inner Palace lies in ruins. The Warmaster’s horde advances through the fire and ash of Terra’s dying breaths, forcing the loyalists back to the Delphic Battlement, the very walls of the Sanctum Imperialis. Angron, Herald of Horus, has achieved immortality through annihilation – now he leads the armies of the damned in a wrathful tide, destroying all before them as the warp begins its poisonous corruption of Terra. For the Emperor’s beleaguered forces, the end has come. The Khan lies on the edge of death. Rogal Dorn is encircled, fighting his own war at Bhab Bastion."

 

Going by that it does seem that Angron and his forces will be a good part of what the book will be about, with Sanguinius and the defenders on the other side of that.

[Triszin]

Would be fun to see some black vaults get opened to see some doomsday daot human tech

[Ubiquitous1984]

Would be fun to see some black vaults get opened to see some doomsday daot human tech

That feels like something ABD would do.  He was the one who introduced the Ordu Sinister IIRC.

[Triszin]

Chaos legion mortis.

You have forced my hand.

Meet ur-757 zeta 5

 

The man of iron the size of a Titan moves forward.

 

Ur-757 zeta 5: " cowabunga it is"

[Ubiquitous1984]

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture?  But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege?  The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.  

[Scribe]

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

[Ubiquitous1984]

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

 

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.  

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?  

[Scribe]

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

Fo's weapon will be used by Ollianius to weaken Horus alongside Enuncia

 

Ordo Sinister is currently losing to Dis Irae and the rest of Legio Mortis

 

Warmaster Titans still 100% fresh

 

Where are the Skitarii? The Traitor Skitarii?

Edited March 1, 2022 by Moonreaper666

[Scribe]

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

Fo's weapon will be used by Ollianius to weaken Horus alongside Enuncia

 

Ordo Sinister is currently losing to Dis Irae and the rest of Legio Mortis

 

Warmaster Titans still 100% fresh

 

Where are the Skitarii? The Traitor Skitarii?

Again, I ask what does it matter?

 

The rescue fleet WILL arrive.

Sanguinius WILL hold the gate.

Horus WILL invite the Emperor to make his play.

The Imperium WILL NOT lose Terra.

 

Do these 100% fresh Titans matter in the broad strokes of the story?

 

Not at all.

[Noserenda]

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps it will be some DAOT tech that can intervene to take Angron out of the picture? But is that too deux ex machina for this stage of the Siege? The idea resonates with my geek genes, but from a storytelling perspective I'm not sure how it could be a satisfying payoff since there has been no buildup to it.

Isn't that essentially Fo's purpose?

I've really struggled to envisage where his arc is going and what the payoff will look like ... everything about him so far just screams to me that he is going to screw the Imperium over in some capacity.

 

I'd love to hear what others theorise is going to happen with him in the last two books?

I really couldn't guess even. I think he's a very interesting character, far more interesting than all the perpetuals LOL!

 

I think he's just a potential mcguffin, but not a necessary part of the story.

Fo's weapon will be used by Ollianius to weaken Horus alongside Enuncia

 

Ordo Sinister is currently losing to Dis Irae and the rest of Legio Mortis

 

Warmaster Titans still 100% fresh

 

Where are the Skitarii? The Traitor Skitarii?

Again, I ask what does it matter?

 

The rescue fleet WILL arrive.

Sanguinius WILL hold the gate.

Horus WILL invite the Emperor to make his play.

The Imperium WILL NOT lose Terra.

 

Do these 100% fresh Titans matter in the broad strokes of the story?

 

Not at all.

 

Exactly this! What i dont get about the weird factionalism here is.. The Traitors lose. They lose hard. Even though the Defenders are hardly much better the Traitors get near destroyed entirely in a rout when Horus falls, they take huge casualties, ditch most of their heavy equipment (multimeltas AND land speeders!)  and the majority of those "fresh warmasters" get left behind to be picked off alongside all the traitors chaff.

 

Subject to change obviously but i suspect the rout wont be too different and the loyalists will still have spaceports and orbital superiority as the traitors desperately flee. 

 

The key point being, we know how it ends why this weird propagandist arc right on the cusp of that? :D

 

I suspect timing wise this book will take us right up to the Traitors breaching the final gates as a bit of a cliffhanger and the last book(s) will cover the battle on board the Vengeful spirit and the rout, probably finishing with Angron being dragged onto a ship. 

[Sothalor]

You know, I wouldn't mind if Fo's arc during the Siege ends up being one of futility - that he considers himself this great mind of SCIENCE and learning and genetic engineering and he understands the mysteries of physics and reality and the universe, compared to all you uneducated plebes, and how FO has devised, at this last terrible hour a weapon of science and reason, a contagion to target the genetic material of the Primarchs, and end things clearly and decisively. And FO will prove once and for all how he is clearly superior to even the Emperor in the ways of intellect and science and reason...

 

Only for it to turn out the Primarchs aren't just supreme examples of genetic engineering, but are literally infused body and soul with the stuff of unreality, and his weapon was never going to work.

 

That the Warp isn't just another dimension that you can understand through rationality.

 

That this isn't a universe of clean rules and reason.

 

That the gods are real, and they hate you.