SoT book 7: Echoes of Eternity - Aaron Dembski-Bowden

[MarineRaider]

Wow, I was hoping to find a e-book release date and found myself wondering what the heck I was reading for 7 pages. Glad there was just a lot personal opinions as opposed to where after reading 100 books I thought it was going.

 

Back to the topic I am a fan of Master of Mankind, the last couple of Siege books have not had much E and Horus interaction, wondering if ADB forays back into this to set up the last book(s). Personally I hope a certain Primarch shows up to deal with Angron *cough cough* Vulkan. That would be in keeping of the little plot twists that venture away from what was established lore they seem to enjoy doing now.

 

I think the final Siege book will finally address the numbers, how many loyalist and traitor SM's are actually alive along with surviving fleet assets. 

 

Finally, years ago there was a website that Laurie G participated in when he was editing for BL. He made a lot of people stir when he said that the E is NOT a corpse on a throne but a perfectly healed man. That he and the other writers had discussed this as well as the New Man push he wanted BL to have as well as star child yada yada, I mention this that there are a lot of different opinions amongst the people writing these stories but they all get their chains yanked by the guys in charge of selling product for the board games and they don't like much deviation so my expectations are what most have written...follow established lore with some subtle twists and turns.

 

I hope I am with wifi connection when it's released, with the way things are currently who knows! Peace for a few years would be nice so I can finish reading my war books. ;)

[Ubiquitous1984]

Wow, I was hoping to find a e-book release date and found myself wondering what the heck I was reading for 7 pages. Glad there was just a lot personal opinions as opposed to where after reading 100 books I thought it was going.

 

Back to the topic I am a fan of Master of Mankind, the last couple of Siege books have not had much E and Horus interaction, wondering if ADB forays back into this to set up the last book(s). Personally I hope a certain Primarch shows up to deal with Angron *cough cough* Vulkan. That would be in keeping of the little plot twists that venture away from what was established lore they seem to enjoy doing now.

 

I think the final Siege book will finally address the numbers, how many loyalist and traitor SM's are actually alive along with surviving fleet assets. 

 

Finally, years ago there was a website that Laurie G participated in when he was editing for BL. He made a lot of people stir when he said that the E is NOT a corpse on a throne but a perfectly healed man. That he and the other writers had discussed this as well as the New Man push he wanted BL to have as well as star child yada yada, I mention this that there are a lot of different opinions amongst the people writing these stories but they all get their chains yanked by the guys in charge of selling product for the board games and they don't like much deviation so my expectations are what most have written...follow established lore with some subtle twists and turns.

 

I hope I am with wifi connection when it's released, with the way things are currently who knows! Peace for a few years would be nice so I can finish reading my war books.

Vulkan is very much the forgotten man … other than his brief appearance in Fury of Magnus he hasn’t been heard from at all, which for me has been a missed opportunity.  I’d love some POV of him in the throne room, interacting with the Custodes and tech-adepts, cataloguing the situation on the surface getting ever more perilous by the minute.  And the inner-turmoil that he must feel being ‘out of the fight’ whilst his brothers are suffering so much on the walls.  

[DukeLeto69]

Some good discussion here. Not going to add overly much but will say one of the things I like about the 40k setting is the self fulfilling prophecy of it all.

 

The chaos “Gods” exist because of the actions and emotions of sentient species like humans and eldar.

 

It goes to follow that the belief in and worship of the Emperor as the God Emperor will indeed turn him into a “God” in the same way as the rest of the Pantheon.

[Karhedron]

It goes to follow that the belief in and worship of the Emperor as the God Emperor will indeed turn him into a “God” in the same way as the rest of the Pantheon.

 

It is implied that this has happened to some extent by the time we get to the Dark Imperium novels and that Roboute's return has woken the Emperor up in some fashion. For the first time since the Heresy, he seems to have a plan beyond just "hold on and don't die".

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

It goes to follow that the belief in and worship of the Emperor as the God Emperor will indeed turn him into a “God” in the same way as the rest of the Pantheon.

It is implied that this has happened to some extent by the time we get to the Dark Imperium novels and that Roboute's return has woken the Emperor up in some fashion. For the first time since the Heresy, he seems to have a plan beyond just "hold on and don't die".

Personally I love that.

 

To be a God one must first be worshipped like a God.

 

And to some extent it means Horus was right about Daddy all along ha ha!

[Karhedron]

And to some extent it means Horus was right about Daddy all along ha ha!

Yes, and Lorgar too. The irony is that if they had not rebelled against his supposed apotheosis, he would not have become a god. A greek tragedy delivered with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

[Bobss]

I suspect the best parts of this book will be the preparations for when the Emperor's strike team get ready to board the Vengeful Spirit. Stuff like the Emperor getting off the Golden Throne and whatnot. I expect lots of cool scenes between all of the major players here. I also have a feeling the timetable for Guilliman's vanguard appearing will be drastically sped up, maybe even breaking into the Solar System in this very book

[Taliesin]

I suspect the best parts of this book will be the preparations for when the Emperor's strike team get ready to board the Vengeful Spirit. Stuff like the Emperor getting off the Golden Throne and whatnot. I expect lots of cool scenes between all of the major players here. I also have a feeling the timetable for Guilliman's vanguard appearing will be drastically sped up, maybe even breaking into the Solar System in this very book

 

Hadnt thought about that aspect of it but that would indeed be a very interesting part, if indeed that is in book 7.

I thought that might have been in book 8.

[Kelborn]

=][=

 

This thread will be unlocked. For now.

 

Stay on topic and don't let yourself be distracted again by off topic discussions or what if scenarios.

 

Otherwise, it will be locked again.

 

Again, the pm system is always available for everyone if the need for clarification and/ or questions arise.

 

=][=

[grailkeeper]

Not out for another 5 months :(, unless the legendary edition is earlier or something.

 

 

[skylerboodie]

Not out for another 5 months :(, unless the legendary edition is earlier or something.

5 months based on what?

[darkhorse0607]

Amazon has the release date in September, but who knows if BL will release it earlier than that

[Fire Golem]

Has Amazon been reliable for release dates in the past? If that’s accurate, that means they’re probably releasing the limited edition one early again this time, which of course they probably are.

[cheywood]

Has Amazon been reliable for release dates in the past? If that’s accurate, that means they’re probably releasing the limited edition one early again this time, which of course they probably are.

They’re almost always wrong on the specific date, but they usually get the month right at least.

 

Other sites are listing it for next month: https://www.brownsbfs.co.uk/Product/Dembski-Bowden-Aaron/Echoes-of-Eternity/9781800260887

 

Presumably that’s because the release date’s been delayed or someone got confused by BL’s limited edition/regular edition schedule and listed the LE release date as the hardcover one.

[Scribe]

Please lord, let it be next month...

[TheVoidDragon]

Some good discussion here. Not going to add overly much but will say one of the things I like about the 40k setting is the self fulfilling prophecy of it all.

 

The chaos “Gods” exist because of the actions and emotions of sentient species like humans and eldar.

 

It goes to follow that the belief in and worship of the Emperor as the God Emperor will indeed turn him into a “God” in the same way as the rest of the Pantheon.

I don't get this line of reasoning at all, as it isn't the impression I got of how the Warp works.

 

The Chaos Gods exist because they're effectively a conglomeration of the emotions of various sentient species in the warp. They in essence are those emotions as sentience, they're fueled by the actions, feelings and emotion that pertain to them regardless of the intent behind. Belief doesn't directly factor into why they exist, it's down to the emotions and feelings attached to those beliefs with that being what reflects in the warp. Belief is ultimately irrelevant and just a means to an end as they are in effect just raw emotion, The Chaos gods weren't created because someone believed so,

 

But for the Emperor to become a God, the actual belief itself and what is wanted (as in what is believed specifically) - not just the emotion and feeling behind it - for some reason would have to suddenly matter and be what's important. If it can be directed to a specific person/entity just by thinking that they should be/are a God rather than just creating a brand new entity representing those aspects in the way the Chaos Gods are, then that would be the Warp working in a completely different way where it's not just those feelings made manifest.

 

The Chaos gods are natural emotion collating in the warp in extremes, they just are a product of existence. The Emperor being turned into a Warp God would be an already existing entity effectively being chosen to become the owner of those certain emotions (for the Imperium specifically) and changed into their representation in the warp (while also staying themselves, presumably) because the Imperium decided that person should be. They're not the same thing at all.

[cheywood]

 

 

Snip

 

The chaos “Gods” exist because of the actions and emotions of sentient species like humans and eldar.

 

It goes to follow that the belief in and worship of the Emperor as the God Emperor will indeed turn him into a “God” in the same way as the rest of the Pantheon.

I don't get this line of reasoning at all, as it isn't the impression I got of how the Warp works.

 

The Chaos Gods exist because they're effectively a conglomeration of the emotions of various sentient species in the warp. They in essence are those emotions as sentience, they're fueled by the actions, feelings and emotion that pertain to them regardless of the intent behind. Belief doesn't directly factor into why they exist, it's down to the emotions and feelings attached to those beliefs with that being what reflects in the warp. Belief is ultimately irrelevant and just a means to an end as they are in effect just raw emotion, The Chaos gods weren't created because someone believed so,

 

But for the Emperor to become a God, the actual belief itself and what is wanted (as in what is believed specifically) - not just the emotion and feeling behind it - for some reason would have to suddenly matter and be what's important. If it can be directed to a specific person/entity just by thinking that they should be/are a God rather than just creating a brand new entity representing those aspects in the way the Chaos Gods are, then that would be the Warp working in a completely different way where it's not just those feelings made manifest.

 

Snip

My possibly incorrect understanding is that it’s theoretically possible for both methods of attaining power in the warp to be true. Clearly the Chaos gods, as you say, are agglomerations of sentient thought and deed, but it seems possible the Eldar pantheon had some sort of warp presence bestowed upon them through belief. There’s mention of them being consumed by the birth of Slaanesh for instance. If that’s the case perhaps the same thing could happen with The Emperor?

 

Edit: to further expand a little this sort of investiture of godhood would presumably only be possible through the belief of a psychically powerful species like the Eldar or what Mankind might one day become, which is why there’s no evidence of modern day religious figures having warp presences.

Edited April 19, 2022 by cheywood

[DarkChaplain]

I think that conceptual difference might be somewhat addressed by way of Dark Imperium: Godblight. The Rift has apparently shattered the balance between Warp and Materium, with the Emperor in a sense championing from the material side of things, enforcing his will on the warp.

If the whole worship stuff empowers him as he is in the real world, with the Warp being more or less a means of transmission and collection of those emotions, then that'd explain too why Saints and Acts of Faith aren't actually warp-things, unaffected by nulls and not registering as psychic activity.

 

If the Emperor's warp reflection is strong enough to become a magnet for mankind's faith - and we know he's even got "parts" of himself radiating from the Astronomican, which Abaddon had a chat with - but funnels their power back into his self on the Throne, then even if it can't heal his body on its own, it might still increase his Will-stat further and allow him to broaden his influence and increase his ability to intervene via projection into beacon-minds like the Saints. If he only needs to use the Warp to create a link, a route to project his will, then the rules would inherently differ from those of the Chaos Pantheon.

[DukeLeto69]

 

 

Some good discussion here. Not going to add overly much but will say one of the things I like about the 40k setting is the self fulfilling prophecy of it all.

 

The chaos “Gods” exist because of the actions and emotions of sentient species like humans and eldar.

 

It goes to follow that the belief in and worship of the Emperor as the God Emperor will indeed turn him into a “God” in the same way as the rest of the Pantheon.

I don't get this line of reasoning at all, as it isn't the impression I got of how the Warp works.

 

The Chaos Gods exist because they're effectively a conglomeration of the emotions of various sentient species in the warp. They in essence are those emotions as sentience, they're fueled by the actions, feelings and emotion that pertain to them regardless of the intent behind. Belief doesn't directly factor into why they exist, it's down to the emotions and feelings attached to those beliefs with that being what reflects in the warp. Belief is ultimately irrelevant and just a means to an end as they are in effect just raw emotion, The Chaos gods weren't created because someone believed so,

 

But for the Emperor to become a God, the actual belief itself and what is wanted (as in what is believed specifically) - not just the emotion and feeling behind it - for some reason would have to suddenly matter and be what's important. If it can be directed to a specific person/entity just by thinking that they should be/are a God rather than just creating a brand new entity representing those aspects in the way the Chaos Gods are, then that would be the Warp working in a completely different way where it's not just those feelings made manifest.

 

The Chaos gods are natural emotion collating in the warp in extremes, they just are a product of existence. The Emperor being turned into a Warp God would be an already existing entity effectively being chosen to become the owner of those certain emotions (for the Imperium specifically) and changed into their representation in the warp (while also staying themselves, presumably) because the Imperium decided that person should be. They're not the same thing at all.

I have read this twice and as far as I can tell, we are saying almost the same thing. I used “belief” in a religious and worship sort of way. What is the worship of god(s) other than an outpouring of emotions? Worship and faith is completely emotive rather than logic based.

 

It goes to follow (for me) that in the same way billions of sentient beings emoting anger (for example) release that “energy” into the Warp to feed and perpetuate Khorne, then why can’t other emotions tied to the worship of the Emperor help him to manifest in the Warp and join the pantheon in the same way as other “Gods”.

 

Not my words...

 

“While Freud and Durkheim were right about the important functions of religion, its true value lies in its therapeutic power, particularly its power to manage our emotions. How we feel is as important to our survival as how we think.

 

Our species comes equipped with adaptive emotions, such as fear, rage, lust and so on: religion was (and is) the cultural system that dials these feelings and behaviours up or down.

 

Mainstream religion reduces anxiety, stress and depression. It provides existential meaning and hope. It focuses aggression and fear against enemies. It domesticates lust, and it strengthens filial connections. Through story, it trains feelings of empathy and compassion for others. And it provides consolation for suffering.”

 

So if the Imperial Faith(s) all provide and generate the emotions of joy and hope (for example) then why can’t that manifest into something in the warp in the same way anger or lust does?

 

We know, thanks to ADB, that the first human murder created sufficient emotion to create a daemon. So why can’t TGE achieve apotheosis through the emotions being generated by the quadrillions of humans worshipping him?

Edited April 19, 2022 by DukeLeto69

[Scribe]

That's an interesting piece, where is it from?

[DukeLeto69]

That's an interesting piece, where is it from?

Are we allowed to post links? If you google search “emotions created by religion” there will be some interesting reads. This was aeon.co

[grailkeeper]

 

Not out for another 5 months , unless the legendary edition is earlier or something.

5 months based on what?

 

Amazon and Simonandschuster both have it being released on the 13th of Sept https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Echoes-of-Eternity/Aaron-Dembski-Bowden/The-Horus-Heresy-Siege-of-Terra/9781800260887, Bookdepository.com has it on the 15th of Sept https://www.bookdepository.com/SOT-BOOK-7-HA-AARON-DEMBSKI-BOWDEN/9781800260887 as does Waterstones.com https://www.waterstones.com/book/echoes-of-eternity/aaron-dembski-bowden/9781800260887

[grailkeeper]

Theres a line from one of Euripides plays from the 5th century BC that to me sounds just like something ADB would write.

 

“We are slaves to the gods, whatever those gods are.”

 

Euripides- Orestes

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

That's an interesting piece, where is it from?

Are we allowed to post links? If you google search “emotions created by religion” there will be some interesting reads. This was aeon.co

 

I don't see a problem posting a link to this, so long as we don't allow it to derail the discussion here.

[MarineRaider]

I sure hope that this book comes out sooner than Sept. Rolling to Poland in August and would like to have this sucker.

 

BTW on the previous couple of posts, I honestly believe many of you give far too much credit to BL and their authors, there are some serious deep thought in some of these Chaos discussions, they could use many of you for pointers.

 

Hoping for June!!