Rules for basic close combat weapons and additional attacks

[Skullheart]

Hi there,

This week I had my first Heresy 2.0 game and some question popped up about close combat weapons on marines. Lets take the tacticals for example.
I was under the impression, if there is no entry for a basic close combat weapon in the war gear the tacticals don't have one.

I'm not so certain now, because a friend of mine pointed out to me, that there are two specific paragraphs that might say otherwise. One is in the AOD Book p.176 (White Box Close Combat Weapons) and the other one in the Libers p.136 (Basic Combat Weapons)

Basic CCW -> Range: - S: User AP: - Type: melee
Bolt Pistol -> Range: 12" S: 4 AP: 5 Type: Pistol 1

AOD P176 it states, "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If it is treated in this way, use the profile given above – the Strength, AP and special rules of the Pistols shooting profile are ignored. Additionally, if a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon as shown above."

Since the pistol does not have the melee type, does the model in question gain a basic combat weapon? Or does the option for the pistol to be used with a melee profile count as having a melee weapon, even the pistol itself has not specifically type melee in its profile?

Liber P136 it states, "As stated in the Horus Heresy – Age of Darkness rulebook, all models are considered to have some form of basic close combat weapon."

What are your opinions?

[Stitch5000]

Are you angling that Tactical Marines have a basic close combat weapon AND a bolt pistol that is effectively a second close combat weapon?

[Skullheart]

That's basically the question. 

[xxxjtmxxx]

no they dont. when u have a tac that has bolter and bolt pistol, the bolt pistol will be the basic close combat weapon and u have no second one to get the Extra attack.

what u think, that everyone has a basic clone combat weapon is only true, if the Model has no clone combat weapon and also no bolt pistol.

Edited July 1, 2022 by xxxjtmxxx

[Calshan]

11 hours ago, Skullheart said:

Additionally, if a model is not specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type, it is treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon as shown above.

This quote of his is direct from the rulebook.  Tactical Marines are not 'specifically stated as having a weapon with the Melee type', as Pistols do not have the Melee type.  Pistols can count as a Close Combat Weapon in the Assault Phase, but they do not have the Melee type.  Therefore, Tactical Marines, not having a weapon specifically stated as having the Melee Type (emphasis mine), would therefore be treated as being armed with a single close combat weapon, RAW, as far as I can see.

I mean, that might not be RAI, but then GW should FAQ that to make it more clear. 

[Cactus]

But a pistol can be used as a close combat weapon using a profile with the melee type. A model with a bolt pistol therefore has a weapon with the melee type.

The Str user AP - weapon rule quoted above exists so models can make basic attacks without it having to be listed as a weapon in every unit entry (and inevitably overlooked from a couple). Trying to gain an extra attack from it is, to me, pushing the envelope too far.

I would just have written it into the close combat rules that any model with an A stat can attack that many times with its strength and AP - instead of attacking with any melee weapon it might have, or if it has no melee weapon. But I don't get paid the small bucks to make these decisions so *shrug*.

[bushman101]

A pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the assault phase. P178.

So in the charge phase, you check for melee close combat weapons, which the pistol counts. Since you already have a CCW, you use the box on p176 to determine stats, which includes the Melee type

Edited July 3, 2022 by bushman101

[Arkhanist]

If the pistol didn't count as a melee weapon, you'd only get the free basic CC weapon - and the pistol couldn't be a 2nd weapon, as it's not a melee weapon. If it does count, they don't get the free CC weapon, and still only have one melee weapon - the pistol in melee mode.

This was a question in heresy 1.0 IIRC, and it's the same answer - you only get the +1 A for the extra weapon if you actually have two CC weapons in your profile, e.g. a chainsword or the like plus the bolt pistol gives you the +1, as it does counts as a melee weapon in CC. Obviously, rules like two-handed, or specialist weapon prevent that, e.g. you don't get to use a bolter bayonet and the pistol for +1 as the bayonet is two-handed.

[Gorgoff]

On 7/1/2022 at 7:06 PM, Skullheart said:

That's basically the question. 

Nope, you get one if you haven't any but if you have a pistol you have one and don't get one.

[Spagunk]

Dead horse at this point but it's worth pointing out this logic:

• Does the model have a melee weapon? If no then you can still attack in melee using S: user AP;- to avoid not having any melee weapons in assault phase.
• No melee weapon but you have a pistol? You CAN use the pistol as a melee weapon instead and thus avoid the "I can't attack in melee without a melee weapon" issue.
• Do you have a melee weapon AND a pistol? If so, the pistol will count as a second melee weapon since there is nothing to restrict you from using it as such.

This seems a bit backwards at face value but Pg 176 indicates that you get a single CCW ONLY if you have no other melee type weapons. The moment you count the pistol as a CCW, it nullifies the "free" CCW entirely since you now have a melee type weapon. If you don't count the pistol as a melee type weapon (since the operator word is CAN with regards to a Pistol), you then qualify for the single CCW using the profile on the page.

[bushman101]

I don't think there is a way to not count a pistol as a CCW. 

A pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the assault phase p178. It never states this is optional. Since the pistol has the CCW stats on p176, it has the melee type

[Spagunk]

7 hours ago, bushman101 said:

I don't think there is a way to not count a pistol as a CCW. 

A pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the assault phase p178. It never states this is optional. Since the pistol has the CCW stats on p176, it has the melee type

Literally says "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon". But that is not the point. The point is that you can't get an additional CCW if you use the pistol as one since at that point you have a melee weapon in your profile (I.E. the pistol). This was always the case and hasn't really changed much in YEARS.
 

[bushman101]

I think we are arguing the same thing ?

Because you have a pistol, you don't get the free CCW.

[Spagunk]

Yes, I think we are but you pointed out that using a pistol as a CCW is mandatory. My distinction is that using the Pistol as a CCW isn't mandatory but rather a player choice. If you don't use the pistol as a CCW, you fulfill the requirement of having no melee weapon options and so you can attack using the pg 176 profile as a default CCW. There is no real reason to do this, to be frank, but as written you have that option: it just has the same outcome.

The only real distinction between a pistol and the default CCW from page 176 happens when you add an additional CCW to the mix. If you have a single melee weapon, you can't then claim the default CCW as the second part of the paragraph states you only get access to the default CCW when there are no melee weapons available to the model. However if that model has a melee weapon AND a pistol, the pistol will function as a second melee weapon and thus give you the bonus 1 attack.

There's no real reason around this like the OP wants. The default CCW is only available in the case that there are no melee options available. Once you make the pistol a CCW, you now have a melee weapon profile available and no longer qualify to use the default CCW.

[brother_b]

Soooooo... what about a bayonet on bolter, and pistol? The only models I have are the box set Mark VI.

I don't have my books in front of me and I'm not familiar enough with HH (at all!) but thought about this question as I'm planning on adding bayonets to some of my bros.

[Slips]

Bayonets are two-handed for a reason.

[Claws and Effect]

Your options for a Tactical Squad are as follows: 

- Give them nothing, they use their bolt pistol in melee or they punch and kick. No extra attack. 

- Give them a bayonet, they use that and attack at +1S. It's 2 handed, so no extra attack. 

- Give them a chain bayonet. Same result as the bayonet, but now they have Shred too. 

- Give them chainswords. Chainswords are single handed weapons, as are bolt pistols. You have now met the requirements to gain the extra attack, plus Shred to boot. 

Even in 1.0 there was no way to gain the extra attack on a Tactical Squad for free. You had to pay points to give them extra close combat weapons.