Iron_Within

I'm strongly of the opinion that each of the major sub factions of the Chaos Space Marines should get a special character. That's normally meant the Legions but then the Red Corsairs have a special character, so why should Kranon become a special character with a new beefed up model?

The Primarchs are characters from Classical tragedies, none of the greatest (save Perturabo!). But in terms of Greek tragedy perhaps Perty most of all. Perturabo had the potential to be the greatest by far, but that was mixed in with a similar level of flaws. Physically he is one of the strongest, he was one of the most physically resilient (see Angel Exterminatus) Mentally he was almost certainly one of the most gifted intellectually if not actually the smartest. But his flaws are huge. First of all, those saying he didn't get the recognition he deserved, he never allowed himself to. If Roboute is the Roman Primarch, Perturabo is the Grecian. Both had fathers growing up that were framed by that culture. Dammekos did try to how Perty love and paternal affection however Perturabo simply rebuffed it or viewed it as insincere. He didn't like either of his mortal brothers for differing reasons, he was utterly incapable of seeing any affection or love as sincere to him, save his sister. And he murdered his sister for a perceived slight. He wanted to create all these vast wonders but when given the opportunity (designing the triumph at Ullanor, creating his theatre in Angel Ex) he soured on them immediately for the perceived flaws in others or misuse. Similarly with smaller projects he would destroy them when they came in contact with other people, simply to make a point or in his rages, this was potentially because those other people had made them flawed because it didn't match his perception. He had utterly rigid thinking. He knew he should have overthrown his father Dammekos because he would have been much better for Olympia than his rather vain tyrant of a father. However he didn't because he believed he had a place in that order and that was that. He kept that place knowing it was wrong because he couldn't think of it any other way. This rigid thinking was applied when he was lord of the IV, he could've easily said "no" to all the things the legion were subjected to, he absolutely hated it all, but he didn't, because that isn't his way. But that was on a scale larger than Olympia and he couldn't handle it, the backlash was far greater as a result. It drove him mad with bitterness. He wanted to be a creator and administrator, an intellectual, but it wasn't that he was too weak to say no and do what he wanted (which wouldn't have brought him censure, it didn't with Roboute certainly), he lacked the schema within his mind and personality to do so. To Perturabo, saying no to being the corpse-grinders, the forgotten son, the trench digger, the ignored one, the destroyer, was as big of a deal as betraying the Emperor and the Imperium, it's not that he didn't see the difference, he literally couldn't conceptualise the difference. This is also why he was so extreme on his subordinates. A small failure, a large failure? A small or large disobedience? There was no difference to him. Everything was absolute black and white thinking. To be the way he wanted things to be they had to be absolutely perfect, had to match what was in his minds eye. That's why he let Dorn escape, twice, he even said as much to him on Terra. He could've killed Dorn there and then, he would have won the siege without him directing things. However, that was not perfect for him, and so that was his undoing. Perturabo is similar to Curze in some ways, in that Curze could not see the potential for good in people, Perturabo could not see beyond absolutist thinking, including the flaws. In that he is a tragedy, and his story, is a moral one. It's also what makes him so interesting, his fall and his life are far more applicable to real life. Don't just keep your mouth shut otherwise you'll always be digging trenches, don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

If you're wanting to go for a shooty dread then yes Havocs and Obliterators are better. However in a full gunline Hellbrutes have their place. With an Iron Warriors list with Seige Breaker Warlord trait, Havocs and Vehicles (not obliterators) get to re-roll 1's to wound, that gives Hellbrutes options in shooting. I personally always give them a Lascannon/Fist, there are enough deep striking threats that having a big beefy boy with a fist in the back line has worth. In some lists I've had 3 Havocs/3 Las/Fist Brutes and when the deep strikers turn up they're swarmed by defensive Cultists and Hellbrutes and that can lay in a hurt. It's not for a Tourney competitive appropriate but in standard play to semi competitive they are decent. In ultra competitive play CSM have only a few options that work.

Big competitive Meta lists orientate around Possessed Bombs atm from Word Bearers and Alpha Legion and a bit of World Eater Triple Lord of Skulls. Iron Warriors lists are strongest around certain lists which are concentrated in Heavy Support. "Classic Shooty army", this orientates around Havocs and/Obliterators, I tend to take both. The IW strats and WL traits can make some units devastating. In a recent game against Iron Hands (Master artisans and Stalwart) I cleared off his castle of triple Devastators with a single round of Chain Havoc Shooting, I deployed them from a Rhino, then Warp Timed them into 24" range (which the Lord was already there) and stuck prescience on. The Seige Master WL trait meant they were hitting on 2's rerolling 1's, wounding on 3's rerolling 1's. killed all the devastators and killed a tactical unit as well, over a 20 marines in a single round of shooting and seige master made the difference. Obliterators are reliable in IW lists rather than swingy. I generally stick my Chain Cannon Havocs in Rhinos with 5 man CSM units, jumping them out and blazing murder at someone at the right moment. The other army is the "Daemon Forge list". This is basically crud load of Daemon engines with triple Lord Discordant. This can also be the big boy lord of Skulls as they can heal over 11 wounds a turn if Iron Warriors and get -1 to hit and 6+ FNP with Iron Within Iron Without.

That is the nasty poxwalker factory list yeah? I think the living dead strategem is going to get a nerf, says the guy who just bought 50 poxwakers :o Based upon thier previous nerfs it'll likely be harsh, which i can understand the thought process of. I think a sensible NERF would be 2cp for it and pox walker units cannot exceed thier maximum size (50) with this (also you cannot gain poxwalkers if a different unit of pox walkers gained models from the same casualty). I think it'll be harsher. This had realised a question for me ill start another thread for.

Correct. The fortification network is a Daemon detachment allowing it to revive daemon stratagems. The the obliterators are nurgle daemons however the Terminator Lord is not so he does not gain the cover bonus but as he has Mark of nurgle he does not receive mortal wounds either

So I used a obliterator bomb and poxcaster factory today.... my god I feel dirty.

So there is a apoc game coming up today and i have a2k list ready and a 4k list. Basically differing versions of the the oblit bomb with a poxcaster factory

So I am trying to run a list tomorrow and I am trying to get units to complement my primary alpha attack. HQ - Terminator Chaos Lord with Mark of Nurgle Heavy Support - 3 Units of Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle Fortification - Feculent Gnawlmaw (Nurgle Tree) Because the Tree is a Daemon unit in a Daemon Detachment it can be Deepstruck for 1 CP, the Obliterators and Lord Deepstrike in with the tree give the Oblits +2 cover save, then they shoot things and be an awful pain as they are very hard to shift. I'm using this with Iron Warriors, the only thing I'd consider adding a different Legion in for is World Eaters for my Zerkers. So I'm thinking what units would complement this tactic.

I was hoping not to have to use the alpha Legion stratagem as I'm a pretty dyed-in-the-wool iron Warriors player

Quick question regarding possessed and the denizens of the warp stratagem from chaos daemons Codex - can possessed if you also have a daemons detachment in the army use this stratagem? My thoughts are too had a large unit of possessed along with three units of obliterators and an Nurgle tree and terminator chaos lord all with Mark of Nurgle. Basically a nasty bomb but to work the possessed need to be able to Deep strike

Do you now have to use reinforcement points for this Stratagem, Chapter Approved suggests that might be the case but it's not clear. Anyone got a clarification?

Why are warp smiths bad?

So I dunno. We might be able to make horrible combos but for me the army feels weak. This is because of two reasons 1) I play iron warrior's and so don't take advantage of the cheesier potions 2) my meta is largely (80-90%) Astra Militarum, to the Games come down to who gets first turn

Autocannons have dropped 5 points in chapter approved making them arguably more viable. But are they viable enough vs heavy bolters and lascannons?