Gene-Seed Discussion

[Ferrata]

After discussing this with RT, I think I will drop the "Further Mutation" section, just because I would prefer this to be the facts over my personal ideas of the future. I'm thinking of withdrawing it to the following sections -

 

Primarch:

Frequency:

Known Mutations:

Possible Mutations:

 

I think these four need to be included. The last section will include such things as the slow reflexes of the Salamanders, stating that it could be due to the gene-seed, or the alternates. I'm not sure about two sections though, I think the Inheritance one is redundent if I mention that a mutation in the gene-seed will be passed on. Frequent Mistakes, while not really gene-seed related, I do think this is an important suject. Though I will probably leave it out to further streamline this article.

 

Ferrata

[Aurelius Rex]

Some of the older fluff states that out of the Black Templars, Crimson Fists and Imperial Fists, only the Imperial Fists had the lack of organs, thus the degeneration of the gene-seed happened after the Heresy (possibly during the Iron Cage incident). Later fluff changed this to both the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists have the degeneration. This could be due to the resupply of gene-seed after the Ryan

[Ferrata]

Latest Version. Very streamlined, giving the basic facts of each gene-seed. I've added BA and SW, but have not done their mutations as of yet.

 

Primarch: The Primarch of Origin

Frequency: The frequency that the gene-seed is used to found new chapters

Known Mutations: Mutations known to the Imperium

Possible Mutations: Mutations which could be due to gene-seed, although there is no proof

 

Primarch: Lion El

[Commissar Molotov]

I think it's perhaps too streamlined. It's not really that informative, in my opinion. Plus, I think rather than relying on second-hand memories, we need to reference things so we can prove our arguments. Perhaps something like this might work better?

 

Notes

- The areas where I've put 'Citation Needed' require just that -evidence and quotes from official GW material. Hopefully we can cooperate to fill this out.

 

Please be mindful of GW's IP. Try to abbreviate quotes wherever possible so as not to infringe on their copyright. We're entitled to quote to 'aid discussion', so try not to just paste the IA here wholesale, as it would reflect badly upon the project.

 

- I've taken a different route from Ferrata and put quotes into 'comments regarding mutation in the gene-seed', and 'character traits consistent with the chapter'. These may or may not transfer into a successor chapter.

 

----------------------

 

Dark Angels

Primarch: Lion El’Jonson

How often is Dark Angels gene-seed used?:

• 'There are no known aberrations in the Dark Angels' gene-seed which makes the reluctance of the High Lords of Terra to utilise it in the founding of new Chapters perplexing. No doubt there are other successor Chapters of the Dark Angels, but their names and when they were founded are unrecorded.' (Index Astartes: Dark Angels)
  
• '...the High Lords of Terra [are reluctant] to sanction the use of Dark Angel's geneseed in the creation of new Chapters.' (Index Astartes: Relictors)
  

Comments regarding mutations in the Dark Angels' gene-seed:

• 'As the first Space Marine Legion, the Dark Angels' gene-seed is one of the purest and least degraded of all.' (Index Astartes: Dark Angels)
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Dark Angels Gene-seed?

------

 

White Scars

Primarch: Jaghatai Khan

How often is White Scars gene-seed used?:

• 'The White Scars successor Chapters, the Rampagers, Marauders, Destroyers and the Storm Lords are all equally ferocious and fine examples of the combat teachings of Jaghatai Khan.' (Index Astartes: White Scars)
  

Comments regarding mutations in the White Scars' gene-seed:

• The gene-seed of the White Scars appears to be stable and initially displayed on aberrations or mutation. With the introduction of genetic material from the steppes tribesmen, the genome seems to have inherited their wild savagery and thirst for war.' (Index Astartes: White Scars)
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using White Scars Gene-seed?

-----

 

Space Wolves

Primarch: Leman Russ

How often is Space Wolves gene-seed used?:

• 'What scraps of data have been recovered suggest that the Wolf Brothers were in fact a successor Chapter of the Space Wolves that was disbanded due to some form of genetic instability.' (Index Astartes: Space Wolves Thirteenth Company)
  
• Citation needed regarding the fact that Space Wolves gene-seed is never used.
  

Comments regarding mutations in Space Wolves Gene-seed:

• 'The genetic coding of the Canis Helix contains acids ... not synthesised by the human body... they have a dramatic effect on the physique of the potential Space Marine... The gene works hideous changes on the warrior's mind and body; he reverts to a primal state where his bones split and buckle, thick hair sprouts from across his body and his only desire is to gorge on fresh meat and glut himself on hot blood. His body mass grows by up to eighty percent, many of his bones fuse, and vestigial fangs sprout from his gums as he undergoes the transformation. Whilst his body is wracked with pain, the warrior must overcome the gene lest it overcomes him.' (Index Astartes: Space Wolves)
  
• 'A minority of these warriors do not completely conquer the gene-seed's original effects, and in times of great stress, they revert to the hulking, bloodthirsty state that haunts their genetic structure like a ghastly shadow. This is the Curse of the Wulfen, and it is rightly feared.' (Index Astartes: Space Wolves)
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Space Wolves Gene-seed?

------

 

Imperial Fists

Primarch: Rogal Dorn

How often is Imperial Fists gene-seed used?:

• • Citation needed
    

Comments regarding mutations in the Imperial Fists' Gene-seed:

• 'The Imperial Fists gene-seed is very stable and has never exhibited signs of mutation. They have, however, lost the use of some of the more minor genetic enhancements of the Space Marines. Specifically they no longer possess the sus-an membrane that allows the Space Marine to enter a state of suspended animation. Neither do they have a Betcher's gland, which allows a Space Marine to spit corrosive poison at a foe.' (Index Astartes: Imperial Fists)
  
• '...The Imperial Fists', and therefore, the Crimson Fists', genome is lacking the Betcher's gland that allows a Space Marine to spit acid, and the Sus-an membrane that allows him to enter a life-sustaining state of deep sleep.' (Index Astartes: Crimson Fists)
  
• 'The Imperial Fists' gene-seed is] second only in stability and purity to that of the Ultramarines.' (Index Astartes: Black Templars)
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• 'The Imperial Fists are known to suffer from a deep-seated drive towards self-sacrifice and penance. They strive to master the self-inflicted punishment of the pain glove, and are notorious tor their dogged pursuit of victory, even in the face of overwhelming odds.' (Index Astartes: Crimson Fists)
  
• 'Considering the circumstances of Rogal Dorn's eventual death, it is clear that the Imperial Fists have a drive for self-sacrifice that they must continually battle to overcome.' (Index Astartes: Imperial Fists)
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Imperial Fist Gene-seed?

------

 

Blood Angels

Primarch: Sanguinius

How often is Blood Angels gene-seed used?:

• '[The Blood Angels'] Successor Chapters were created before discovery of the Blood Angels' flaw... doubtless there are many in dark and far-flung corners of the galaxy, each trying to battle the legacy that is the Red Thirst.'' (Codex: Blood Angels)
  

Comments regarding mutations in the Blood Angels' Gene-seed:

• Citation needed
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Blood Angels Gene-seed?

-----

 

Iron Hands

Primarch: Ferrus Manus

How often is Iron Hands gene-seed used?:

• Citation needed
  

Comments regarding mutations in the Iron Hands' Gene-seed:

• Citation needed
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Iron Hands Gene-seed?

------

 

Ultramarines

Primarch: Roboute Guilliman

How often is Ultramarines gene-seed used?:

• 'As the largest Space Marine Legion, the Ultramarines' contributions to [Terra's gene-banks were] greater than any other Legion and, as a result, their gene-seed became the stock type for many of the Second Founding Chapters.' (Index Astartes: Ultramarines)
  

Comments regarding mutations in the Ultramarines' Gene-seed:

• 'The Ultramarines gene-seed is by far the purest stock and there are no known aberrations in its genetic structure. Every... [organ used in the creation of Ultramarines is] fully functional and it can truly be said... that they are as perfect today as they were in the days of Guilliman himself.' (Index Astartes: Ultramarines)
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Ultramarines Gene-seed?

-----

 

Salamanders

Primarch: Vulkan

How often is Salamanders gene-seed used?:

• 'There seem to have been no Second Founding successor Chapters formed from the Salamanders... It is a matter of debate whether there have been Successor Chapters during subsequent Foundings, although it appears likely and many scholars point to similarities in the physique, markings and tactical dogma of Chapters such as the Storm Giants and Black Dragons.' (Index Astartes: Salamanders)
  

Comments regarding mutations in the Salamanders' Gene-seed:

• 'As far as can be ascertained, the Salamanders' gene-seed appears to be stable and as yet uncorrupted.' (Index Astartes: Salamanders)
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Salamanders Gene-seed?

-----

 

Raven Guard

Primarch: Corax

How often is Raven Guard gene-seed used?:

• Citation needed
  

Comments regarding mutations in the Raven Guard's Gene-seed:

• 'The gene-seed of the Raven Guard is far from stable and a great deal of their gene-stock has become irreparably damaged... several of [a Space Marine's organs] no long function as they should... while others are not as effective as they once were.' (Index Astartes: Raven Guard)
  
• '...the zygote cultures required to grow the Mucranoid and Betcher's Gland do not exist within the Raven Guard and the Melanchromic Organ has a unique mutation that, over the years of service, causes the skin of the Space Marine to grow paler. Eventually they will be as white as their Primarch and their hair and eyes will darken, becoming black as coal.' (Index Astartes: Raven Guard)
  

Character traits consistent with the Chapter:

• Citation needed
  

What does this mean for a sucessor chapter using Raven Guard Gene-seed?

-----------

 

 

 

EDIT: I checked this post with Kurgan and he reckons it's fine as it is so far, rules-wise.

[Sir Crispy]

I think it needs to be a combination of the two -- hard facts suplimented with fluffy quotes. The quotes really give you a feel for the intangibles that don't come across well in black-and-white facts. Choosing a geneseed for your chapter is usually a fluff choice after all (barring the non-codex chapters at least).

 

However, just going on the quotes may cause a new reader to miss some of the implications of the quotes. For instance, the Blood Angels quotes mention that there may have been many successor chapters created before anyone knew of the Red Thirst. This is cool to know, but the implication is that if you want a Blood Angel successor, it would almost certainly be an early founding. That ought to be spelled out.

 

I think the best way to do it is similar to how GW does its wargear. First, it gives a fluffy description. Then, it tells what that fluff implies in game terms. In our case, the facts wouldn't be specifically in game terms, but would explain what effects those quotes would have on a successor chapter.

[Rogue Trader]

I'm not sure I agree with that - I think using quotes only allows the reader to draw their own implications and conclusions, which is really what this sort of project should be about.

[Commissar Molotov]

I think it needs to be a combination of the two -- hard facts suplimented with fluffy quotes. The quotes really give you a feel for the intangibles that don't come across well in black-and-white facts. Choosing a geneseed for your chapter is usually a fluff choice after all (barring the non-codex chapters at least).

 

However, just going on the quotes may cause a new reader to miss some of the implications of the quotes. For instance, the Blood Angels quotes mention that there may have been many successor chapters created before anyone knew of the Red Thirst. This is cool to know, but the implication is that if you want a Blood Angel successor, it would almost certainly be an early founding. That ought to be spelled out.

 

I think the best way to do it is similar to how GW does its wargear. First, it gives a fluffy description. Then, it tells what that fluff implies in game terms. In our case, the facts wouldn't be specifically in game terms, but would explain what effects those quotes would have on a successor chapter.

 

The fluff is fact. With regards to implications, I'm planning on adding an additional section for each gene-seed, entitled 'What does this mean for [X] successor chapter?'

[Ferrata]

. Plus, I think rather than relying on second-hand memories, we need to reference things so we can prove our arguments. Perhaps something like this might work better?

All that is in the second draft is fact, only the IF/CF/BT thing was based on second-hand memories.

 

I'm not sure I agree with that - I think using quotes only allows the reader to draw their own implications and conclusions, which is really what this sort of project should be about.

I'm not sure what Rex's initial aims where for this discussion when he originally started it. My aim was to have a thread which those who where struggling to decide which gene-seed to use can have a quick look at. They will be able to see what mutations will be passed on if any and what other things could be passed on. I will think more about this later when I have a clear head.

 

Ferrata

[Commissar Molotov]

This isn't designed to be 'Molotov vs Ferrata' and I apologise if it seems as such. I figured that we're both trying to work to a common goal - contributing to the B+C as a community and the Liber as a resource for chapter creation. From your 'clear head' comment I get the impression you're perhaps annoyed/unhappy with my effort, so I'm sorry.

 

All that is in the second draft is fact, only the IF/CF/BT thing was based on second-hand memories.

But by providing references for your facts they are proven fact rather than conventional wisdom. For example, we know that there have been no Space Wolf successors since the Wolf Brothers. But where's the actual quote for such? If we have a well-written article with evidence and the like, we can then point frater to it and it'll help them out.

 

My aim was to have a thread which those who where struggling to decide which gene-seed to use can have a quick look at. They will be able to see what mutations will be passed on if any and what other things could be passed on. I will think more about this later when I have a clear head.

 

Well, my post does that as well. It provides factual evidence of what mutation and the like has happened. I don't think that the choice of core things like geneseed should rely on 'quick looks'. Surely we as respectable (responsible?) posters should be advocating people taking care with their IA articles? We should be providing a balanced thread where we can give advice. I think we can do that - for example, the 'What does this mean' section, we can say "Well, Blood Angels successors aren't common, but they do exist (as shown in the Blood Angels codex). If you want a Blood Angels successor, it is highly recommended that your chapter hail from an early founding (Third to Eleventh, say...) before the High Lords of Terra stopped using Blood Angels gene-seed. Any Blood Angels successor would have the Black Rage, and..."

 

In this way, I think we can provide a better fluff resource for the players, and hopefully a greater number of balanced, fluff-compatible IA articles.

[ironloki]

The fluff is fact.

*Refuse senses tingling* Ooo I wouldn't know about that. Perhaps I've become infected by the recent posts by Refuse or perhaps its my own delving back into first hand historical sources, during my neverending search for more knowledge, but I have come back to the 40k Universe with a different opinion on Fluff. I have began to doubt how accurate it is. Who has been keeping and/or writing these records. Would they have an agenda is producing this? Also are there any real mutations or was that an excuse to stop "powerful" or dangerous chapters from expanding their realms of influence? I wouldn't go as far as Refuse and perhaps come out with "All history is propaganda" :devil: but I think you have to be careful with cutting off options for new DIY'ers by saying you cannot use Space wolf Geneseed. Yes it would be hard for it to be used but not impossible

 

Umm yeah I'll stop rambling now but I think with these facts, given to us by the grace of the high lords, we have to be a bit careful. However that isn't exactly going to help a new DIY'er and will probably cause more confusion than its worth.

 

I think the usage of Quotes is a great idea though as that could allow a person a springboard if they wish to dispute a claim that "[X] chapter suffers from..." or "there are no successors"

 

Primarch: Jaghatai Khan

Frequency: While not commonly used, it is not unheard of for Jaghatai Khan

[Commissar Molotov]

Whilst with my example it has all the supporting fluff and then you simply have to look at the 'What does this mean...?' section to see what you need to take into account.

[Ferrata]

As for Possible mutations I would turn that into a theory section as to any effects it may have upon a successor,

The Possible Mutations are those mutations/traits which some believe are due to the gene-seed, while others don't. I thought if they where included underneath, then the reader could decided what they thought on the situation (as in the WS issue, to me it reads that they have a thirst for war, while to others it doesnt). I think I'm swaying towards a more full article, but keep the base facts there.

 

Ferrata

[Aurelius Rex]

. Plus, I think rather than relying on second-hand memories, we need to reference things so we can prove our arguments. Perhaps something like this might work better?

All that is in the second draft is fact, only the IF/CF/BT thing was based on second-hand memories.

 

I'm not sure I agree with that - I think using quotes only allows the reader to draw their own implications and conclusions, which is really what this sort of project should be about.

I'm not sure what Rex's initial aims where for this discussion when he originally started it. My aim was to have a thread which those who where struggling to decide which gene-seed to use can have a quick look at. They will be able to see what mutations will be passed on if any and what other things could be passed on. I will think more about this later when I have a clear head.

 

Ferrata

 

Thanks to everyone involved in this rejuvenation of the lost thread, especially Ferrata for applying the electrodes to the neck-bolts and making the Monster live again. ;)

 

It is great to see such vigorous, courteous and constructive debate in Liber. ^_^

 

On the point of what I intended for the previous thread before the board kerploded, and the wider question of how best to present it as a board resource, I initially started it as a guide to what kind of implants would be missing in DIY chapters from a particular line.

 

IIRC I also included certain emotional predispositions / baggage which could also be passed on to the successors. This is trickier, and ranges from very strong geneseed-related things like the Blood Angels Curse of Sanguinius, through to the Iron Hands Mechrophila which is a much weaker effect, and may be simply a cultural artifact. The weaker the effect the easier for it to be missing from successors as other effects like history, environment and general drift blur the edges... just see how different the head-hunting, death-obsessed Mortifactors are from their strait-laced Ultramarine progenitors.

 

 

So the initial idea was for it to be a resource or guide to the ballpark that the successor chapter based on the best info we have, and without too much wild supposition. It is fine to come up with flights of fancy with your own DIY, but it is best to stay clear of doing this with the big-name GW chapters and especially the first founders.

[Commissar Molotov]

So the initial idea was for it to be a resource or guide to the ballpark that the successor chapter based on the best info we have, and without too much wild supposition. It is fine to come up with flights of fancy with your own DIY, but it is best to stay clear of doing this with the big-name GW chapters and especially the first founders.

 

That's what I was aiming for with my post - although Ferrata has a point with a quick reference guide, I'm looking to create something more in-depth, so I guess there's space for both of us to work side-by-side.

[Ferrata]

I've been thinking about this today, and I might have a good solution, although it requires the gene-seed section to be it's own topic really. The first post is my quick guide to the gene-seed, I might plump it out a bit with wording, but it will be the facts that we as the player know. Then, clicking of the name of the Primarch will jump you to Molotov's detailed inlook of each gene-seed with the quotes. Thus you get a sort of index effect, with the quick guide there for a quick decision then for the detail you jump down.

 

Sound good to anyone?

 

Ferrata

[Aurelius Rex]

Sounds like a nice idea to keep it free from clutter. Just don't ask me to code it as my video timer is still flashing 12:00. :)

[Commissar Molotov]

I can do it, I've done it before on DI. Ferrata, contact me via PM or MSN and we'll collaborate on it before posting it.