Brother Alex Posted April 13, 2006 Share Posted April 13, 2006 So, an associate and I have been creating a Chapter from a horrible idea and making it into something actually worth posting. These are the Doom Dragons, and here's some general information just to get you started off: - They are of the 26th founding - They use a mixture of Salamander and Blood Angel Gene Seed in an effort to temper the mutations of the latter. - They are... red! ^_^ I love red, but that's beside the point. They have grey trim with blue shoulder pads and weapon casing. - I have chosen two traits for them: * Cleanse and Purify, because they ARE Salamander-like. * Trust Your Battle Brothers, to represent the fact that they are not untouched by the Curse of Sanguinus. In addiion, they are battle-hardened and are each veterens in their own right. Their story goes like this: Deep within the history of the Imperium, soon after the Horus Heresy, plans were laid for a Chapter to be created that would prove to be an interesting experiment in the slicing of Gene-Seed. The experiment was successful, but due to other military concerns at the time the project was suspeneded indefinately. There was a single Marine made from the mixed Gene-Seed and he proved to be a warrior above the average Marine. In close quarters, only veterens from other Chapters could match him, and even then it was impossible to tell the outcome of the enclosed fights in the test-arenas. He was killed during a disagreement with an Inquisitor and the project was forgotten fro nigh on 10,000 years... Until, that is, one inquisitive Inquisitor found the records of the tests and through methods unseen and unheard brought it to the attention of the High Lords. Thus it was set in stone that this Gene-Seed splicing was to go ahead, and thus the Doom Dragons were born. They were given the world of Tritus IV as their homeworld and after a number of decades they had the full compliment of 10 companies. Their requisitions from Mars were slightly unusual, however; they decided to forgoe heavy weaponry and ordered large amounts of melta weapons and beseeched Mars for all the plasma they could spare. In their own forges, they created flamer units enough that were it tactically viable, each Marine could have one. They produced the finest hand to hand weapons, making Thunder Hammers, Power Swords and Power Fists. Their Chaplains had weapons of adamantium and volcanic rock, sometimes covered with gold as well as their crackling power fields. Despite their tremendous fighting ability and the quality of their weapons, events unfolded that were unforseeable. The First, Second and Third Companies, in orbit over the now Imperial planet of Wilhelm VII, on the Battle Barge He Who Gives Grace were boarded by a Chaos vessel. On the Battle Barge, Librarian Armedus and a Chaos Sorceror fought in a battle not only of combat prowess but of the mind, and the ensuing energies threw the Barge into the Warp. The Warp, in this strange cirucmstance, did not distort time but the Battle Barge was thrown through space, almost into the Eastern Fringe. There, they crash landed on an abandoned Forge World, Istarr II, overrun by Orks. The Warp mutated some Marines and others quickly turned to Chaos. These were quickly destroyed, but what remained was a Company's worth of Marines, not enough to even to even think of destroying the Orks. Quickly, then, the remaining Techmarine, Brother Eckesael, created a plan... Meanwhile, the Imperium slowly recieved word of this. It was put to the Inquisitor who suggested this "accursed tomfoolery" to report back when he had more information on the Doom Dragons, and what he found out was startling. He reported to those who asked that they seemed to be operating, in most ways, as a Chapter usually does. He kept serects, however, of their Plan. On the abandoned Forge World, the Techmarine had found the cloning facility. Knowing it to be folly to have instantly capable Marines without the spiritual conditioning, he planned it to contain dummy clones; that is, clones for harvesting Gene-Seed. The clones were armless and legless, eternally asleep but technically alive. After the harvesting of the Gene-Seed, a clone was killed and the process started anew. If only the communications replay could be repaired, then new recruits could be flown in. The Plan was underway, and our good Inquisitor was intrigued. So, there you have it. Sure, I broke some rules, but otherwise the Doom Dragons would be the Doom Dragons. I have a more detailed version of the story in production if anyone's interested. Regardless, I'd be glad to receive some criticism on this. If it isn't constructive, you get a Thunder Hammer to the head. You have had your warning. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Fine, I'll risk the thunder hammer, but this, in my opinion, is a terrible idea. Gene-splicing doesn't occur in the Imperium. For one, you're tampering with the Emperor's own work - that's heresy. Most of the Adeptus Mechanicus won't countenance it for that reason. Any of the less puritanical Adeptus Mechanicus would look at the Twenty-First founding - and the hideous mutations in the chapters involved. The one GW article that suggests gene-splicing can go ahead is IA: Relictors. It isn't even conclusive that the gene-seed is spliced - some have suggested that either the progenoids are one-and-one, or that some marines have Ultramarine gene-seed, others have Dark Angels gene-seed, and never the twain shall meet. What makes your chapter so super special that they should automatically be better than others? It just seems like an attempt to create an uber-chapter. The point with DIYs is not to create a super-chapter that could take on every other chapter before breakfast. It's to create interesting tales. Sure, the gene-splicing is interesting, but it goes against nearly every fluff tenet that we treasure. If we aren't going to abide by them, what's the point? You have marines that are great at combat and great at creating weapons and there seems to be no downside at all to them. (I don't consider 'crashed on an abandoned forgeworld' to be a downside). They're two-dimensional because they have no character flaws. They're just advantage after advantage after advantage. Yes, you're right - without the genesplicing your chapter wouldn't be what it is. But I think you've set it up on tenuous fluff-grounds to begin with. If you keep stacking higher and higher on unsteady foundations, it's just going to get more and more wobbly.... :P Perhaps it might be better to work on a different concept for your chapter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 It's a rules tie-in; they're not actually better, per say. They're just specifically optimised for close quarters fights. Other Chapters can/will beat them with their big guns, but at CQB the Doom Dragons rule as supreme as the Black Templars or similar. It's not that they can't be beat or anything, it's just that they are very, very specialised. Anyway, that was merely the first Marine who cou.d beat the others, the Seed would deteroriate since then, even if only a little. Remember also that this creates a Chapter of extremes: they have the hardened veterens and the Scouts. No middle ground. I didn't talk about the Scouts. Logically, any other Chapter would probably eat this one for breakfast; it has no orbital support, allies or even much technology. They DO have very powerful one-on-one forces and ground-based fighting machines but they'd have to be very careful to come out on top of any serious engagment with anything other than a small band of Orks and hope to win. Sadly, they're pretty much, contrary to what you believe... doomed. The only thing keeping them alive is the Inquisitor, because he insists that they're not doing anything wrong. They ARE great at creating weapons, but so are other Chapters. Their main advantage lies in their experience rather than weaponry, and all they've got left is whatever was on that Battle Barge and a lone Techmarine to help. It'll be a few millenia before they get close to being uber. Thank you for your criticism, by the way. You have a point with the splicing but that's integral to them, and it WAS done thousands of years ago. If any alteration was made it would be that no-one knows of the splice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Gene splicing is very bad. Aside from the heretical aspect of tinkering with the makings of the Emperor (Or worse, the insult to Space Marines to tamper with the direct connection to their Primarch!), there are solid examples from the 21st founding that still serve as lessons to not mess with what the Emperor has made. If you're interested in blending the feeling of two Chapters together, perhaps a better way would be to have the geneseed of one Chapter while being trained by another. If you did not want the Black Rage (Although I guess there is no Black Rage in 4th edition), it would obviously have to be Salamanders geneseed with training from the Blood Angels (Or one of their successors). If the Black Rage was fine with you, just do vice-versa! I don't like the idea of just having veteran squads and scouts. Scouts are young trainees. Veterans are skilled troops who have survived hundreds of years of war. There has to be something in between! Besides, Space Marines are designed to be a force which can quickly adapt to its enemy and overcome any and all enemies. That's hard to do when all you have are Veteran Squads and Scouts! Also, why is this Inquisitor risking himself to protect these Marines who, by his beliefs, aren't doing anything wrong? Their geneseed is corrupt, and they're cloning Marines to implant their geneseed into just to harvest the geneseed and kill them! That seems to me that would be a tough thing for an Inquisitor to defend. I think, though, the biggest thing you should think about changing is your geneseed. I would try to stay away from the splicing of two seeds if at all possible. If that's really what you want, there's nothing to stop you, it is your money and your Chapter after-all! However, I don't think many people would take you very seriously once you started talking about your Marines' background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 Hmm, the Gene-Splicing is one thing, yes. The problem is that the Salamanders have no known successors and the Blood Angels have the Black Rage, both of which interfere terribly. That's the main reason that it's a mix, to circumnavigate both problems, coming out with something that's more believable than either. I don't have any good reasons how they could have overcome the Black Rage or how the Salamanders suddenly decided some successors would do some good. Perhaps I've dug myself into a hole with that, but the splicing seems to be the best option for me, unless anyone has some suggestions. NOTE: I'm assuming that a successor Chapter is any Chapter that uses the same Gene-Seed. Mixing it would make it sliiightly different... different enough to mutter and stutter and pass it off. ;) On the Inquisitor, well, it was his idea for the Chapter to be created, he pushed it along and into the paper work, he's not about to let it go to waste. Besides, it's interesting to have the Inquisitor there, studying the Chapter, a sort of pet project, if you will. The Veterens are not really regarded as Veterens, they're just really, really hardened. I don't actually use Veteren Squads, game-wise; just Tacs with Trust Your Battle Brothers. The gap is just between fighting ability more than anything, rather than rank (those Scouts go up quickly, these days!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are both suggested to be Salamanders successors. Simply because the Salamanders have no official successors, it doesn't mean that they don't have any. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_raptor Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Minor quibble. Getting a chapter to full strength normally takes centuries in the fluff. As the others have said gene-splicing isn't going to happen. The fact that no official chapter has pulled it off should give you a clue. They have enough difficulty keeping straight gene-seed stable, I doubt they have the capacity to actually slice without hideous mutations being the result. And if the black rage could be overcome the Blood Angels would have done it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Minor quibble. Getting a chapter to full strength normally takes centuries in the fluff. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1,000 healthy sets of organs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 The Black Dragons and Storm Giants are both suggested to be Salamanders successors. Simply because the Salamanders have no official successors, it doesn't mean that they don't have any.True enough. I will meditate on this. And if the black rage could be overcome the Blood Angels would have done it. *Thunder Hammer!!* Which is what's in the way, my friend. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 The Salamanders do have successors, they just don't have any Second Founding successors. The chart your referring to (which can be found on page 8 of your Space Marine codex) only states second founding chapters, where the Salamanders had none. I don't think gene-seed splicing adds anything to your chapter, so just make it normal. Also, a chapter who uses the Salamander gene-seed does not automatically like flamer/melta weaponry and close ranged fire fights, it has nothing to do with the genetic material. Being 26th Founding doesn't give them much time to become experienced, as it was only 250 years ago. Trust Your Battle Brothers, to represent the fact that they are not untouched by the Curse of Sanguinus How does that work? It would make more sense if that was No Mercy No Respite I'm not a big fan of the Chapter being spat half-way across the known universe, why not just have their crash closer to home. Ferrata Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 Counter Attack. The whites of their eyes, boy... Plus, I think they would take a mental similarity and with the combination ofskill in close quaters, they would take weaponry that would allow them to fight effectively at a bit of range, keeping close to the battle, so they would stock up on those heat-based weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983683 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrata Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Counter Attack. The whites of their eyes, boy...Counter Attack doesnt really say "Black Rage" or "Red Thirst" to me. You can't rid yourself of the Black Curse without some type of major drawback. The Lamenters show no sign of the the Black Curse, but they are incredably unlucky. Furious Charge is a toned down Black Rage, charging the enemy, not allowing the enemy to charge then charging them back. And I will ignore the "boy" comment for now... I think they would take a mental similarity and with the combination ofskill in close quaters Please explain how mental stimuli can be passed on via genetic coding. Unless they are trained by the Salamanders, they are just as likely to love shooting at long range as they are at loving close-fire fights. The fire connection comes from the Promethean Cult which the Salamanders belong to, which I believe comes from their home planet. Ferrata Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 Since this is just mutable fluff, I could come up with any number of excuses. ;) For now I'll say that it's just random pyromania and leave it at that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 And that's the thing. You can't defend your arguments with any conviction - you hide behind humour or just ignore it when people give you perfectly valid arguments, refute your points, suggest alternatives, or just try to help you out. Yes, your models, your fluff. Do what you want in the safety of your home. But as soon as you post here, you're asking for our feedback. But you don't seem to be liking what we feed back to you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 No, it's just that I'm trying to defend my point of veiw and to compromise somehow. I've taken the ideas on board but I'm not changing on a whim. Even if (when) I do decide to change things, it's won't be instant, as I've spent much time thinking this over and making it as fluff friendly as possible. The other thing is rules. Call me a power gamer or whatever, but I have model limitations and limitations on what I'm prepared to change right now, especially considering I've chosen the drawbacks very carefully.I've even written an example of the Chapter's members before the descension into the Warp. It's not that I don't appreciate your help or that I'm not listening, it's just that I am fond of my fluff and I'm looking for some sort of compromise to keep it basically as it is, with changes mostly to its origins rather than it's current structure and workings. I will not be changing the traits, due to the way they are already modelled and the desicions I have already taken. I'm the last person who wants to see this Chapter fall into stupidity and self-aggrandisment. On a related note I'm suprised you haven't asked where the other 7 Companies went. =P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
space wolf Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 i dont think the problem is the rules you've given them...its the way you have justified giving the rules to them. As stated above by others if you want gene splicing in there go for it. But fluff wise it just wouldnt happen. i think that is really the ONLY issue of major contention. fact is, it doesnt matter what geneseed you use by 26th founding they are all pretty stable. Hell even BA gene seed gets stable if taken from one of the later successor chapters. Secondly, who trained them is possibly one way to decide how they like to fight. For example: just because they are BA successors, doesnt mean they were trained by BA. Its more likely that they would, but not improbable that they wouldnt. I think you can get we could help you much better by telling us EXACTLY what it is you like about fluff, and how we can go about rewritting it to make it more fluffy, while giving you the same "flavor" that you're looking for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Space Wolf has the size of it. We're not trying to be fluff nazis. In fact, there're people here who can be remarkably liberal at times. But the gene-seed splicing is a bad idea. You said: So, an associate and I have been creating a Chapter from a horrible idea and making it into something actually worth posting.The trouble is that a horrible idea is a horrible idea, no matter how much you try to neaten it up and make it pretty. But if you tell us what you like, we can try to help you work around it. Space Wolf: Hell even BA gene seed gets stable if taken from one of the later successor chapters. Secondly, who trained them is possibly one way to decide how they like to fight. I'd like you to justify that, if you can. Is there evidence from that? Anything official? From my readings of IA: Flesh Tearers, Codex: Blood Angels and the Lamenters fluff, the Blood Angels gene-seed fell into disuse after a few foundings. The Lamenters are alleged to be a BA successor whose gene-seed has been tampered with to remove the black rage, but that's not been proven either way. What makes you say that a later-founding BA successor chapter wouldn't be subject to the rage? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_raptor Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Minor quibble. Getting a chapter to full strength normally takes centuries in the fluff. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1,000 healthy sets of organs. So why the heck are there any under strength chapters given the timescales in 40k? Being understrength as a element of a chapters background is going to be fairly rare unless that chapter is constantly going through the meat grinder. It's not like 40k is the type of game where we are always playing in 999.M41 (or whatever the official "current" date is). The only explanation I can think of is that the 55 years is just to produce enough geneseed, and that the training scouts into marines is what is going to take centuries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Pretty much. A chapter won't take the first 1000 guys they find. Finding and training the appropriate candidates is what takes the time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-983962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
space wolf Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 I'd like you to justify that, if you can. Is there evidence from that? Anything official? From my readings of IA: Flesh Tearers, Codex: Blood Angels and the Lamenters fluff, the Blood Angels gene-seed fell into disuse after a few foundings. The Lamenters are alleged to be a BA successor whose gene-seed has been tampered with to remove the black rage, but that's not been proven either way. What makes you say that a later-founding BA successor chapter wouldn't be subject to the rage? sure i can justify that...........*thinks really hard*............well it was early in the morning and i dont know what im talking about....SO THERE!!! your right there isnt much evidence, but as you have pointed out the Lamenters. either way im a space wolf what the heck do i know about BA anyway so sue me!! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-984118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 14, 2006 Share Posted April 14, 2006 Haha, fair enough. The thing is though that the Lamenters aren't free of the curse because they're a later founding, but because they're test-subjects. But I'll let you go back to your excessive but-oh-so macho and wolfy binge-drinking. ^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-984147 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 14, 2006 Author Share Posted April 14, 2006 Okay, how about this... The Imperium knows them as Salamanders successors, but there could be suggestions of Gene tampering. For example, an Imperial record: +++ Astartes Recordis +++ +++ Gene-Seed -- 0602 hours, 247th Terran Cycle, M41.467 Recorded bioform entry. Remained in storage for extended period of time. Possible contaigon. Pict-capture feed offline for maitenance during this period. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-984201 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 The problem with 40k is that the "There are rumours that X happened,but according to Y Imperial source it never did." ALWAYS means that it happened to the reader sitting in the real-world. It's a bit of a clich Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-984302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Alex Posted April 15, 2006 Author Share Posted April 15, 2006 Hm. Interesting question and one I don't have much of an answer to. I guess it was more of a circumstancial thing than a need or desire. Firstly, I did not want Blood Angel Gene-Seed; the Black Rage is something I just don't like and while it's interesting, I didn't want to be restrained by it. I did, however, want my Marines to be a bit more versatile in close quarters so I thought I might be able to circumnavigate that with a mixed seed, the Salamanders being ideal. Not only are they arguably the most docile Chapter, they're also my favourite. Salamanders, however, wanted to be known only as a single, unified Chapter so they were out of the question, too. Although, I see that breaking that rule would be far better than breaking the gene-splicing rule and that's the course I am most likely taking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-984345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Molotov Posted April 15, 2006 Share Posted April 15, 2006 Interesting question and one I don't have much of an answer to. I guess it was more of a circumstancial thing than a need or desire. Firstly, I did not want Blood Angel Gene-Seed; the Black Rage is something I just don't like and while it's interesting, I didn't want to be restrained by it. I did, however, want my Marines to be a bit more versatile in close quartersI don't think it's down to genetics. Plus, there's other close-combat chapters. The White Scars produce plenty of combat chapters like the Rampagers. The Black Templars are an example of a combat-focused chapter from a noble and 'sedate' gene-seed. Even the Raven Guard,flying in close and slicing you to bits. so I thought I might be able to circumnavigate that with a mixed seed, the Salamanders being ideal. Not only are they arguably the most docile Chapter, they're also my favourite. Salamanders, however, wanted to be known only as a single, unified Chapter so they were out of the question, too. See, I don't know where people get this perception and it really frustrates me. The Salamanders HAVE had successors, it's just GW's never bothered to detail them. There are no official, explicit successors to the Salamanders. The Black Dragons are reputed to be Salamander Successors, as are the Storm Giants. (Both official chapters). The Salamanders simply didn't contribute to the second founding. There are twenty-four other foundings where there could have been a Salamander successor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/85034-the-doom-dragons-come-unto-thee/#findComment-984348 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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